PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Ralathar44]

Again, people should not have to mod the game in order to make it playable,

This is why its hard to take people seriously.  Game is in the top 20 of steam and you've got folks with zero self awareness suggesting its unplayable without mods.   The vast majority of players don't even use mods on games.  For example Bethesda revealed only 8% of all active Skyrim players had ever installed a mod and that's one of the most heavily modded games of all time.

I have no issue with people fighting for the game they'd like to see.  But please try to keep this out of the land of fan fiction.  Try to be reasonable and understanding that others like a different game than you.  And try to avoid insane hyperbole.  Otherwise you're mostly just going to be dismissed as ridiculous and close minded...and those type of people are not worth catering to as a developer because they always end up having slightly different likes and so to you the current game would be "unplayable" but if you got the game you wanted another person just like you would consider it "unplayable".

Being more convinced and more extreme/hyperbolic about an argument or stance does not make it that stance stronger.  If anything it undercuts it and makes it weaker.

 

[Ralathar44]

Now that's an exaggeration to say 90% of the community can't handle a bike ride through the wasteland. We aren't talking about going into a PoI or questing. We are talking getting on a bike or minibike and looting very easy to access vehicles. That is very little risk with very high rewards. The little risk being not paying attention to your surrounding and getting attacked while looting a vehicle.

The game hasn't bumped up that much in difficulty aside from the debuffs occurring alot more often now than before especially the bleeding when taking hits. Mind you I am one who loves that part and tougher zombies appearing earlier. 

If you're already to the point of having a bike then you're already past 75% of what people are @%$#ing about.  By the time you have a bike that means you have a workbench and should be getting iron weapons and tools soon.  If you have a minibike then honestly you're past the hump already.

Alternatively if you rushed the trader quests to get a bike then its STILL high risk high reward because you don't yet have a stable source of food or water and you're equipped in low tier stone and cloth/scrap armor with minimal healing supplies.  Bike consumes stamina, you're still not invulnerable while riding it and definitely not while looting.  Running over things damages the bike that you have few if any repair kits for.

Honestly you're massively downplaying the danger.  The game is alot harder, debuffs occuring alot more is not something to handwave as it turns even an annoying vulture into something that can easily kill you or semi-permanently remove large chunks of your max hp.  I'm betting that if you put 100 players in the wasteland with minimal food/healing supplies, a bike, low tier stone/cloth/scrap gear, and 1 repair kit that prolly 30% or more will not survive a day of looting.  And you need to reliably survive day after day unless RNGesus blesses you to do what you're saying.

Its easy to type things out, quite another to actually do it consistently in game.

 

[Neminsis]

Sure, I can't dig a hole in the ground and never leave it and still expect to level up quickly on crafting magazines; but that is extreme conditions and I don't think TFP should cater to extremes, that is what mods are for.

It's not about leveling quickly on crafting magazines but being able to level at all. What exactly do you find extreme about miner 69er and Motherload given that you really don't need them at all since you're just going to be out constantly looting and will be able loot or buy more than enough resources to build the bare minimum base on top of some roof somewhere? Are those perks there just for RPing or some late game vanity project? Why even bother putting them into the game at all?

What exactly do you find so extreme about allowing primary resource gatherers the ability to buy books from the trader without having to take time away from their chosen profession to go do gopher jobs for a trader that's going to make the necessity of those books moot by offering to sell you what you want regardless?

This isn't about extremes, this is a basic economic balance issue given that crafting books, exp, and dukes are all part of the game's economy, and heavily favors one tree in particular. 

 

[Ralathar44]

Farming a 10x10 plot area takes 5 minutes.  This is too trivial for one person to do.

We're talking about group play and whether or not you need "support" people. 

First of all a 10x10 plot is prolly only enough for a solo without living off the land.  Getting living off theland for your team alone already starts pushing you into support territory.  Second, you're gonna need a ton of aloe vera plants, a ton of yucca, some beer for your brawlers, lots of corn, lots of potatoes, lots of blueberries, and maybe a few pumpkins for trade boosting pumpkin cheesecake.  And with a group maybe 3-4 plots of chrysanthemum too.  Wild harvests are enough for infinite red tea solo, but for teams you can burn through wild harvests really fast...especially when other people are not harvesting it.  You'll need alot of mushrooms too though those dont necessarily need plot space. 

I've farmed for a team of 6 before.  @%$# goes fast.


Also 10x10 plot of farming blocks.  Do you realize how much resources that is?  50 farm plots is 5,000 clay, 1,250 nitrate, 500 rotting flesh, and 200 wood.  Double if you literally mean 10x10 of solid farm plots.  50% discount with living off the land 2.  You just say it off handedly like 10x10 plot is easy.  But honestly by the time you have that many plots you'll be at high tier iron or steel even in A21.

It's like saying "well paying your student loan with $50,000 just takes 5 minutes, its trivial".  Gotta have the $50,000 first bub lol.  If all your guys are hunter/gatherers and nobody is playing harvesting/building/farming then just who the hell is farming up all those materials, placing the plots, and then spending 10-15 minutes to harvest it every few days.  (its definitely not 5 minutes to harvest > replant > deposit the harvest in storage 50-100 separate farming blocks lol)

If you play with a group I really feel for your team mates who are doing the support behind the scenes, they're clearly not being properly appreciated.

 

[Neminsis]

Attention, I don't dislike the function of the collector, but filling the jugs in the lakes is also essential in my point of view.

The dew collector isn't even necessary if you have that lake near you. You can avoid the problems of drinking murky water with points into iron gut, vitamins, and the teas you can make with the murky water you loot from pois. Just remember to fill the container that is your player beyond the point where the meter says they're full.

 

[Neminsis]

The game is perfectly playable.

If you play it in exactly the right way under the right circumstances, sure. I mean. single player is a breeze and even easier if you choose to spawn near a city as opposed to wilderness or the flagship map, but if you take the 'sandbox' designation of the game seriously and attempt to deviate from the quest focused gameplay loop you're going to have a much harder time. Reject that gameplay loop entirely and yes, it becomes unplayable. That's the context that you stripped from my statement just to play the contrarian.

 

This is why its hard to take people seriously.  Game is in the top 20 of steam and you've got folks with zero self awareness suggesting its unplayable without mods. 

You might not be aware of this but any time there are any suggestions around here that the game is not absolutely perfect in every way the immediate kneejerk response is, "So what, just mod it."

You may also not be aware, but the "unplayable" comment was specific to a set of circumstances and not the game overall. 

I really hate being taken out of context.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Riamus]

If you play it in exactly the right way under the right circumstances, sure. I mean. single player is a breeze and even easier if you choose to spawn near a city as opposed to wilderness or the flagship map, but if you take the 'sandbox' designation of the game seriously and attempt to deviate from the quest focused gameplay loop you're going to have a much harder time. Reject that gameplay loop entirely and yes, it becomes unplayable. That's the context that you stripped from my statement just to play the contrarian.

And yet you can say that about basically any game.  If you play it in a way that isn't intended or expected by the developers, then you will have problems.  If course, many games don't give you any freedom to try and play it in United ways by making it linear and static but if the game is open and variable, you will always be able to make this statement. But here is the thing... Even if you were able to play outside the intended and expected ways before, that isn't what they are designing the game for.

But you can play an entirely sandbox game just fine by simply making use of the creative menu.  Don't like magazines gating you?  Give yourself a bunch right from the start and then play the way you want without that being an issue.  Or more those into your starting gear if you prefer.  These are easy things to do that give you all the freedom you had before.  Yes, they are different from what you might have needed to do before but to expect them to focus on alternative ways to play rather than the game they intend (a combination of a variety of different aspects, including looting, questing, building, surviving, and so on) is not going to get you very far other than upset.

If you were making a game that you wanted to make and players complained that it wasn't what they wanted you to make, would you change it?  I doubt it.  You would listen and might make some adjustments to help them a bit but you aren't going to change the game just because some of them didn't like what you wanted to make.  TFP listened with the magazines and reduced them because people said there were too many but they aren't going to change them just because she people are upset.  They have no requirement to do so and I don't see why you or others think they are obligated to make the game the way you want instead of the way they want.

The game is designed specifically to allow creation of and use of mods in an easy way so that people can play the game they want even if it doesn't align with what the devs want.  Yet people are bagging the devs and the game when they should be thankful that mods exist so that they can play the game the way they want.

There are things I don't agree with but rather than bashing the devs for their choices or getting theatrical about the game being dead and such, I have my feedback and will see if anything changes.  If not, I can use a mod and that is fine.  I hate the increased vehicle damage and have made my case against it.  I think magazines in their current implementation cannot be properly balanced and I made my case.  There are other things I've said were bad.  But I don't expect them to cater to what I want.  I'll either adapt or use a mod.  It really is that simple.

And being condescending to people who don't agree with you certainly won't get you much support from people even if you have a good argument.

 

[Roland]

I don’t think we really need 1000+hour veterans trying to speculate and anticipate the behavior of brand new players. I mean go ahead for the thought exercise but TFP uses Game Sparks to learn the exact and actual behavior of new players. Thanks but the role of player behavior tracker and analyst has been filled…

 

[spacepiggio]

Day 4 on this new update & 1 Mechanical Part, that's it 1 whole part so at this rate I can make a wrench in 12 more game days...something broken? 

It's morning I'm hitting up some more car's & gas stations then going to the trader & see if he sells them so I can start salvaging.

 

[vergilsparda]

Day 4 on this new update & 1 Mechanical Part, that's it 1 whole part so at this rate I can make a wrench in 12 more game days...something broken? 

It's morning I'm hitting up some more car's & gas stations then going to the trader & see if he sells them so I can start salvaging.

Try Working Stiffs stores, they're usually in abundance there! toolboxes also have a chance to give them, I think, and you can usually find those at WS and also at car places (I cant think of the names but like, the car... shops. my goodness I cannot find the word!!). Usually hitting up like 3-4 stores can grant me just enough parts for a wrench when the time comes, but YMMV depending on loot abundance and luck.

(oh jeez sorry for such a quick answer, I was already here looking at someone who responded to me LOL, sorry if I freaked you out)

 

[Fish36]

What you want is a hardware store. Garages main boost would probably be for vehicle magazines.

Could be small sample size or the fact I have points in master chef, but my main game is on like day 5 and I have like 42 points in cooking and I think my next highest skill is like 18. I'm getting like multiple cooking magazines from everywhere in houses. I get food piles and kitchen cabinets, and obviously I value cooking because I put points into it, but I'm way past the stuff I normally cook at this stage in the game (like I usually run around with a pile of grilled meat, but I have a stack of meat stew before day 7). 

I don’t think we really need 1000+hour veterans trying to speculate and anticipate the behavior of brand new players. I mean go ahead for the thought exercise but TFP uses Game Sparks to learn the exact and actual behavior of new players. Thanks but the role of player behavior tracker and analyst has been filled…

You mean like running up and trying to punch a zombie dog without armor or weapons? Not that I know anyone who was dumb enough to do that (OK it was me, I was that guy). 

 

[Ralathar44]

You may also not be aware, but the "unplayable" comment was specific to a set of circumstances and not the game overall. 

I really hate being taken out of context.

Thanks for playing.

That is a lie.  Added the context blow, so yes...thanks for playing mind games and being disingenuous.

You're talking about baseline playable state of the game.  Baseline playable state of the game is not a "specific set of circumstances".  And there is not "little a player can do" anymore than there is "little you can do" in poker or in a Rogue Lite like Darkest Dungeon.  RNG being involved =/= loss of agency and impact.  Even if the RNG is large.  But some people throw up their hands and call a game like FTL unfair and insist its all RNG and the player can do nothing rather than learn the ropes. 
 

Again, people should not have to mod the game in order to make it playable, especially not new players who are going to fumble around, give it a couple tries and then decide that they wasted their money. There should be a baseline where it just works the first time you try it no matter how bad you are at the game. 

Right now that baseline is, you get to the trader, you discover that everything is obtainable through dukes and you throw points into better barter and daring adventurer only to later wonder why there are even other perk trees.

I do get it, I've been through the experimental phase 5 times now, and I've been lurking on this forum for nearly as long. It's easy to understand how one could come to the conclusion that everyone just doesn't understand the game well enough to understand how things will actually work out. Sure, people were saying that digging Zs would ruin underground bases, but up until a20 you could dig deep enough to be undetectable, and now with wandering hordes more precisely and more frequently coming close to the player is that still true? It doesn't matter because there are many things that the player can do to circumvent the issue. The player has agency.

On the other hand there is very little the player can do about how far away particularly important books are going to drop or if RNG is going to be kind. The player doesn't have agency. That's why this time it's different.

If you play it in exactly the right way under the right circumstances, sure. I mean. single player is a breeze and even easier if you choose to spawn near a city as opposed to wilderness or the flagship map, but if you take the 'sandbox' designation of the game seriously and attempt to deviate from the quest focused gameplay loop you're going to have a much harder time. Reject that gameplay loop entirely and yes, it becomes unplayable. That's the context that you stripped from my statement just to play the contrarian.

I'm doing everything the opposite of what you say I should be doing this run. 1.8 km from the trader, rural area, splitting my points between fort and agility, etc.  I just survived the day 23 horde on nomad with 64 zombies at a time with only spike traps, pipe pistol and pipe machine gun, knuckle wraps, the good ole doorway chokepoint of the olden days of 7 Days to Die and quick door repairs.  Fort Bites and Beer did their part too.

Gotta say though, the days of heal tanking are over.  By the end of it my max hp was like 40 with all the injuries i accrued over the course of that tense defense.

 

[meganoth]

1) A very small number of weapons. I'm a big fan of guns, but very few firearms and hand-to-hand. At least add a couple types of assault rifles and a few types of knives or other weapons.

The devs are fans of a lean game where every item is unique. So each family of weapons has unique characteristics and the family only exists so there is a progression from weak to powerful.

2) Zombies are constantly repeating themselves. A small number of zombie models. This point is a little annoying, I would like more types of zombies (zombie prisoners? zombie firefighters? Zombie commandos, ordinary zombies would still like to

The company making this game is small. They could add more but not enough to really make it look like no zombies repeat. So it seems they put their efforts elsewhere

3) There are not enough mechanics in the game. On 15-20 days you get bored. Out of all the variety, I found farming, treasure hunting (interesting mechanics) and the opportunity to build beautiful buildings. I'd like to be able to fish, and I've also heard that a CASINO location will be added in the future. Will there be an opportunity to play mini-games in the form of blackjack, spin slots on the machine, spin roulette? Using Duke's chips as currency or your belongings? I would really like this

The casino is probably just the main base of the bandits with the Duke being head honcho.

TFP want to finish the game so apart from zombies and a few other things the game is almost complete. Further expansion of the game will likely happen in 7D2D 2. Or an expansion/DLC.

If you get bored you might increase the frequency of the horde night and/or increase difficulty. The gameplay loop is normally about preparing for the horde night which will increase in severity. Have you seen demolishers yet on horde night?

4) There are not enough satellites in the game. A feeling of longing, loneliness, despondency, depression begins. The drone practically does not make sounds, it cannot be equipped with a combat weapon and it cannot be talked to. Just a car, but if he at least imitated feelings like in the fallout series of games) then it would be another matter) And so I wanted companions in the form of a raven, an eagle, a vulture, some kind of survivor that can be found in the wastelands

No pets expected. The drone was chosen as companion because they avoided a lot of pathing issues with it

5) There is not enough life, activity, events in the game. But I heard that bandits will also appear in the future alpha? I hope that ordinary NPCs will be added to them in the form of simple survivors with whom it will be possible to talk about what is happening in the world, to trade, to take on a team. It would be very nice if some safe points appeared in the game, but where you can kill people there are some mini bars, landfills where ordinary survivors will sit

The story they plan to add won't be big. NPCs will not fill the world, though possibly they have plans for a few specific NPCs (?), I don't know. Mostly they will add bandits together with new player characters. You can find a short list of what is still planned for the game on the first page of this thread.

6) It would be very cool if a radio appeared in the game. When you pass by, for example, some beautiful retro song is playing or survivors are talking, merchants are talking about life and what is happening in the city and in the neighborhood. And so that the player can set up a radio for himself and while traveling around the world listen to music or radio broadcast

Sounds very much like fallout. I don't think the devs are fans of just copying stuff from other games. And they definitely don't have the manpower to mimic the much larger game.

7) Display of weapons on the player's back, belt. Not a very important element, but it would be quite pleasant.

Well, that's basically it. SORRY IF THE TEXT IS TOO HUGE. IF NECESSARY, I WILL REDUCE IT BY 2 TIMES. I JUST LAID OUT COMPLETELY EVERYTHING THAT WOULD REALLY TRANSFORM AND BEAUTIFY THE GAME. Since the game has a huge potential (I watched online today and it reached ALMOST 70 THOUSAND, which in fact is a very good figure in my opinion.) I hope the game will develop and thrive. Thank you all for your attention. I apologize right away if I wrote the wrong way, it's just that there is the biggest activity here, if anything, please write to me, then I will transfer the text to another topic of discussion.

 

[Riamus]

Day 4 on this new update & 1 Mechanical Part, that's it 1 whole part so at this rate I can make a wrench in 12 more game days...something broken? 

It's morning I'm hitting up some more car's & gas stations then going to the trader & see if he sells them so I can start salvaging.

The trader will also give sets of 10 as quest rewards occasionally.  But yeah, hit up electronics stores and check their shelves as well as working stiff stores.

 

[Neminsis]

And yet you can say that about basically any game.  If you play it in a way that isn't intended or expected by the developers, then you will have problems

Yes, but these are previously available playstyles that have perks built in to support them. If there is something unintended here it's more likely an oversight in balancing that hasn't yet been completed because this is still experimental.

 

There are things I don't agree with but rather than being the devs for their choices or getting theatrical about the game being dead and such

Yes, except that no one is claiming that the game is dead. If you'd been paying attention you'd know that I merely reported a balance issue for a very particular set of circumstances, suggest a set of tweaks that would reintegrate those playstyles without affecting the balance for any other and suggest that it be tested.

Since that point a significant portion of the people on this board seem to have taken it upon themselves to berate me for doing so. I don't know if it's just poor reading comprehension, some sort of weird projection, knee jerk contrarianism, or something else, but it is annoying as hell. 
 

I think magazines in their current implementation cannot be properly balanced and I made my case.

I think they can be by increasing the likelihood that critical ones appear at the trader and/or increasing their drop rate overall. 

 

And being condescending to people who don't agree with you certainly won't get you much support from people even if you have a good argument.

Then perhaps you should review your own posts accusing others of being upset or otherwise engaging in histrionics and hyperbole while simultaneously misstating what it is that they were saying in the first place?

I mean, ya know...

 

[Riamus]

Yes, but these are previously available playstyles that have perks built in to support them. If there is something unintended here it's more likely an oversight in balancing that hasn't yet been completed because this is still experimental.

 

Yes, except that no one is claiming that the game is dead. If you'd been paying attention you'd know that I merely reported a balance issue for a very particular set of circumstances, suggest a set of tweaks that would reintegrate those playstyles without affecting the balance for any other and suggest that it be tested.

Since that point a significant portion of the people on this board seem to have taken it upon themselves to berate me for doing so. I don't know if it's just poor reading comprehension, some sort of weird projection, knee jerk contrarianism, or something else, but it is annoying as hell. 
 

I think they can be by increasing the likelihood that critical ones appear at the trader and/or increasing their drop rate overall. 

 

Then perhaps you should review your own posts accusing others of being upset or otherwise engaging in histrionics and hyperbole while simultaneously misstating what it is that they were saying in the first place?

I mean, ya know...

The game (the complete game) includes a variety of aspects that are intended to be used together while playing the game.  It is not intended to only do one aspect of the game while ignoring the rest.  Yes, it may have worked previously but that doesn't mean it will always work that way.  They are working at making a complete game and not a bunch of separate parts that are all played individually.

There are at least two recent threads stating the game is dead.  Their words, not mine.  It was an example of the way people are overreacting and being theatrical and overly dramatic about the update.  "It's the end of my playstyle."  "The game is dead to me."  "You can't play this way anymore."  "The devs don't know what they are doing."  Etc.  You may not be saying these things exactly but you still have this same focus.  The fact that these playstyles could be played with a bit of adjustment or using the creative menu or a mod to get what they are looking for is ignored.  In fact, there are posts from people saying they only play overhaul mods and they are still complaining about the update when it won't even affect them in their overhaul modded game.

My post was a response to what is being stated by others.  It is a statement of what they are saying and why it isn't such a bad thing.  They *are* being overdramatic and theatrical.  Can you claim that "the game is dead to me" is not overly dramatic?  I am not stating anything that isn't clearly shown by the posts that are being made.  That isn't being condescending.  That is simply stating what people are saying.  If I told you what I thought of people who stated such things, then *that* might be condescending but I didn't and will not.  On the other hand, your final comment "Thanks for playing" following the previous comments is essentially saying, "I'm right, you're wrong.  Try again.  Thank you for playing."  It is a sarcastic and condescending comment meant to make someone look less than you.  In my posts, I have generally given recommendations to help people overcome the difficulty in adjusting to the updated game even when they are making it sound like the update is the end of the world.  What are your posts doing other than being doom and gloom?

Your own posts are rehashing the same thing over and over for the past, I don't know... 5 pages maybe, I didn't count.  You are stating that playstyle X cannot be done anymore with this update and then when someone says it can in one form or another, you start to be abrasive in your responses, criticizing them for not understanding or for misstating what you said or whatever.  The part I quoted, you said that I ignored everything you were saying just be "play the contrarion."  Basically ignoring what I  said.  You initially said the game was unplayable and I pointed out it was playable.  You then reversed course to say that wasn't what you meant and that it's only unplayable if you don't play the game the way it is intended to be played, which ignored the point I made that if you do play the game the way it's meant to be played, then it is playable and that your own statement about it being unplayable was overly dramatic and theatrical because it was.  Your statement was intended to suggest that the game doesn't work when it does.

In any case, I don't really feel the need to keep this conversation going.  Feel free to continue with your doom and gloom posts and how the game can't be played and playstyles are dead and that the devs should make the game work for everyone's playstyle even if it's an edge case just because it happened to work before.  It won't change anything but if you enjoy that, go for it.  I don't see a reason to continue to point out the falseness of such statements and how you can make those still work if you aren't willing to hear.

 

[kattenijin]

Don't forget to fix the molotov typo.

 

[Aldranon]

I finally solved my problem I had at not simply getting the water from the side of the roads:  I built an entire map that's desert!

NOW, the water condensers make sense, and I can believe that aspect!

I called the map Arrakis. 

Much better!

 

[pattyboy27]

Firstly, thanks for the update, team. I'm certainly a critic of the time frames between releases (and have frequently stated I'd further support the team with paid DLC if it were an option to help speed up release + future TFP games), but always appreciate the effort put in. Update is solid and moving in the right direction.

I don't really read the forums but went back a couple of pages to get a sense of what others are talking about, and have a couple of thoughts:

• I think some people are taking this "play however you want" thing way too literally. Sure, you can spend more of your time doing x, but you also need to do y if you want a, b, or c.
  
• Be careful not to romanticise the A16 "learn by doing" too much. I can recall going AFK in my bedrock base to craft hundreds of things just to advance a skill, and it definitely forced choices on you to skill up in other areas. None of the options are perfect, and TFP most certainly won't please everyone no matter what they do.
  

Something that I think might be missing in this update (but apologies if it's just me) is a description of what the skulls mean? Like, there's red and other tones but also 1 or more skulls. I had a quick look through the tips tab and couldn't see it. Maybe like a general description of what to expect? It kind of intuitive, but I'm just inferring from like... life experience?

Also, I realise this isn't the place for desired features, but just made my way to trader Jen and those hydroponic gardens look great! If they're already in game - cool! If not ... well...

Cheers

 

[faatal]

This alpha so far feels like the last 2 years were spent making the game look pretty with little in the way of fun gameplay mechanics.  The time wasted on the dumb water and learn by looting could have gone into bandits or idk maybe adding in the story about the Duke to make the game fun.

That is not how it works. Different people work on different parts of the game. Water (drinking) and learn by looting are primarily worked on by designers. Bandits are primarily worked on by artists and 2 programmers, who also worked on hundred of other tasks over that time frame, which pushed bandits being ready for release into a future alpha.