PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Archer]

Archer, another thing you are not considering is that your looters don't need to read ANY magazines.

ALL that the magazines affect is crafting quality. You can have all of the other up to 30 people feed magazines to the one builder/crafter that is on most often until he finishes a category, then start a second crafter on magazines.

If you want to speed rush one particular item... say workstations... you could also have your looters sacrifice 1 point each into the perk related to workstations so that they will get more of those magazines. Or have each looter put one point into one assigned specific perk so that looter A finds more workstation mags and looter B finds more cooking magazines, etc.

If you are concerned about weapons specifically, have them prioritize questing at locations that have a high rate of shotgun messiah crates. If you are concerned about tools specifically, focus working stiff crate locations.

Since you say most of your group are stay-at-home builder types, you could go together once per day to do a t1 quest as a group. It will take 2 hours max in game time in a large group, you never need to move up to t2 or higher quests to keep it quick and easy, and you often get magazines offered as a reward.

Those are just some of the things that came immediately to mind. I am sure there are many others.

Also, all the perk points your builder/crafters used to use to get recipes can now be spent on other things to improve yourselves.

If you are creative and positive, you almost definitely won't have problems. And if you do, provide feedback in a constructive manner. Note what methods your group used to try to make the system work and how it failed you. This is the first implementation of this system. Feedback based on actual gameplay by people who tried to work with the system but couldn't get a successful outcome will be invaluable for future balancing passes.

I think much of this just boils down to we aren't a group that really enjoys scavenging or questing or any of that stuff at all. I literally haven't gone on a quest in probably 3 years, it's not because the quests needed to be 'cooler' or have better loot, or just needed a better mechanic to force/incentivize me to do them, I just don't care about them. The game could literally take quests and traders completely out and it would barely affect how I play at all except sometimes when it comes to getting an auger. That's about it. 
Leaving the base to quest, loot, etc all sounds boring to the bulk of the squad. 

Also - I'd mentioned above that the problem I had is that the looters *dont* need to read the magazines at all, and so even if they don't, there's no perk that helps people at home other than having to make the looters 'sacrifice points' into that in order to get the ones they need faster. That doesn't seem like a feature - that seems like a flaw. 

All the points made about *how* to overcome the concerns I have are absolutely good suggestions - just having ten people looting regularly, or just having faith that the game will spawn them at a rate and amount that keeps everyone up to snuff on what they need to be able to produce based on the game stage we're at, but they're good suggestions for people who play the game for more questing and looting primarily, or have more friends playing with them, who play the game for more questing and looting. Either way the pushback's center of gravity is centered around exactly that - some aspects of the game aren't being played because they were poorly designed or needed to be fixed or reworked or overhauled - people just don't do those parts as much because it's not why they're actually playing, and forcing them to do it through a game mechanic might be a medicine worse than the disease to "fix" quests and traders and skills and so forth. 
 

 

[Neminsis]

If I was a builder

...then your opinion about playing as a builder would have more weight in consideration? I have actually been playing a21 as a builder and solo player...

As it's balanced now, it's great for solo play or as a looter, as a builder, not really. You might be forgetting that the resource gathering and technology perks actually do require a player to gain levels.

 

[mprojekt]

...
And as a sort of final comment on it - *why* are we again changing the dang perks? They were *fine* before and have been fine for quite a long time  I love everything else in this update but the new system (and again, I've played this since like, early 2014) just seems the most convoluted/weird/unnecessary out of all the changes I've seen from the game over the past 9/10 years. I'm rarely the type of person to go and make an account on a game forum lol. Maybe I'm just getting old and it feels like the grocery store has rearranged its aisles again, but I'm not sure this really should have been overhauled the way it was done, if it should have been overhauled at all.  Without trying it out, I can tell you that if you'd left it the same as it was before, you'd still have gotten another 1,000 hours at least of play out of the crew and me, if not more. 

The big thing is that most of us just like to build / mine / harvest . 1 out of 10 people maybe loot, the rest are mining iron, coal, lead, others are working the forges and making forged iron or steel to upgrade the walls, others are making bullets and sorting out the sorting box that looters drop their inventories into after they come back from a long run. 90% of us are playing to just build stuff, and fight off the big hordes that come on the blood moons. The quests, the missions, etc. all that stuff is done by literally less than 2 or 3 people for 12-15-20 humans all online at once. 

Most of us play this for the *Crafting* part of the title, and we were able to stay mostly around our little area and play. 

It was fine, that didn't need to be 'fixed', we're happy just trying to stay alive long enough to reach gamestage level 300, we've done it off and on for years like that. We had enough of a forced need to loot with brass as it was. Now we have this as well.

Offhand, Darkness Falls and War of the Walkers both have their own takes on Learn By Doing, but the changes to the world that these overhauls bring are *extensive* and not much like vanilla 7Days. Those are just two overhauls out of dozens. While many overhauls radically alter the setting, some are only mild conversions and also bring back the LBD model.

There is also a smorgasbord of "regular" mods and modlets that do not change much more than a single system or even a single item. If you want to maintain most of the vanilla experience, but desire only for perks and skills to be aligned with what you prefer. there might be something that could be done for you by one of our community's many, talented modders.

 

[Jost Amman]

No worries! I was using the current Flurry of Blows as an example but I get what you're saying.

I think I just remembered that in one of the Dev Streams one of the devs said that "dismemberment chance" from your attributes/perks, will also affect explosions.

 

[Old Crow]

I think I just remembered that in one of the Dev Streams one of the devs said that "dismemberment chance" from your attributes/perks, will also affect explosions.

The line in the patch notes seems to indicate the reverse - rather than buffs affecting explosion kills, it infers explosion kills will affect buffs. (ie stamina regain on kill from my example)

 

[RipClaw]

And as a sort of final comment on it - *why* are we again changing the dang perks? They were *fine* before and have been fine for quite a long time  I love everything else in this update but the new system (and again, I've played this since like, early 2014) just seems the most convoluted/weird/unnecessary out of all the changes I've seen from the game over the past 9/10 years.

The reasoning was that you could skip technology levels in the old system. The developers want you to work your way up through the technology levels.

The second reason was that you could build a Q5 steel pickaxe once you found the schematics. You didn't have to start at Q1.

Both problems could have been solved in other ways, but the developers settled on the learn by reading system which is good for players that like looting but not so good for players that don't.

I'm rarely the type of person to go and make an account on a game forum lol. Maybe I'm just getting old and it feels like the grocery store has rearranged its aisles again, but I'm not sure this really should have been overhauled the way it was done, if it should have been overhauled at all.

I feel the same way. And the worst are these posters who say "We are rearranging the store for you" which is just a lie. The structure of the store is changed so that the customer has to search for the items he wants to buy and on the way he passes shelfs  where he might buy something he original didn't want to buy.
 

 

[Jost Amman]

*why* are we again changing the dang perks? They were *fine* before and have been fine for quite a long time 

This specific change (the craft progression through magazines) was necessary because crafting was underwhelming in A20.

One of the main issues was that people were "forced" to spec into something they didn't really want/need, just because they could use that workstation, or that vehicle, or some other stuff that wasn't in their main specialization tree. So, after a while, everyone was, more or less, following the same game meta and always choosing the same "must have" perks/trees (see advanced engineering or master chef as examples).

The other issue was that in A20 you didn't find enough parts to craft what you knew how to craft.

Everyone found in loot what they needed way before they could actually be able to craft that same weapon/armor/tool.

In A21, when you spec into something, you also have a slight better chance to find crafting parts that are needed to craft whatever you're specialized into.

On top of that, in A20, there was also a mechanic where you outright skipped crafting tiers, because when you were able to craft a Q5 Stone Axe, you'd also be able to immediately craft a Q5 Steel Axe, as soon as you unlocked the corresponding perk.

Now, progress is more evenly distributed, and even if you're great at crafting Stone Axes, you still need to learn how to craft good Iron Axes and get there in time.

 

[katarynna]

No, but they do have to carry them in the same slots as other resources and at the same encumbrance as those other resources...and that's where the problem lies.

 

You say it is a problem, but i see it as an interesting choice. Which do we need more? 12 mechanical parts or 3 workstation magazines?  

If you try the system and hate it, provide feedback based on actual gameplay in a constructive manner, detailing how you tried to work with the system and where it failed you. Feedback like that is valuable for balancing purposes. Feedback based on how you fear it will work.... not so much.

 

[Neminsis]

If you try the system and hate it, provide feedback based on actual gameplay in a constructive manner, detailing how you tried to work with the system and where it failed you. Feedback like that is valuable for balancing purposes. Feedback based on how you fear it will work.... not so much.

Scroll up, I've mentioned multiple times that I am actually playing A21 and testing this specific dynamic and what my results have been.

 

[spud42]

ok, just watching jawoodles second stream.  he just found a workbench in the wild that works! is this a thing again? This was upstairs in the truck stop. 

will trader workbenches work now too? Or is it just random workbenches in poi"s ??

played a A20 game recently where i got to the 80th day befor i found a trader to sell me a workbench and still have not found the schematic. 

 

[RipClaw]

ok, just watching jawoodles second stream.  he just found a workbench in the wild that works! is this a thing again?

There is no mention of this in the release notes. Maybe the level designer accidentally placed a working workbench instead of the helper block.
 

EDIT: I watched part of the stream and found the scene

https://www.youtube.com/live/qebCe1xXmKM?feature=share&t=6610

Seems to me like a bug.

 

[Moldy Bread]

This has been talked about a lot, but to catch you up. Yes just like the gas cans, oil bottles, acid bottles, etc.

Oh, so it's a stupid change? got ya.

Hopefully fixed by modders.

 

[BFT2020]

Oh, so it's a stupid change? got ya.

Hopefully fixed by modders.

I removed glass jars in Alpha 20 and didn’t miss them at all.

 

[JebacPis]

Awsome job FP team love you

 

[Roland]

And yet the looters are incentivized to do just that by the sheer number of books, the overall generous amounts of loot, and the limits of inventory and encumbrance. 

Not so. When you play in a group it becomes obvious very quickly that it is monumentally stupid for everyone to read every book they find without coordination. 
 

We've been testing this dynamic specifically, and yes the stay at homes can keep up levels wise for a time, but once the looters have a bicycle their exp gain takes off. If you do not do those quests at the same rate as the looters you're left behind. The looters are incentivized to progress through the quest tiers as quickly as possible, which only widens the gap in exp gain and equipment levels. 

yeah but if your looters are just reading everything then you’re shooting yourselves in the foot as a group. I agree quests are problematic. They are the last vestige of LBD that exists in the game and need to be limited to prevent the unnatural spamming that occurs. 
 

Part of the problem is that looters need the same tools as the stay at homes, which sets up competition for the tool crafting books.

See? Your group doesn’t get it yet that you want one person to read all of one type of mag and then craft for the group. If you and I are competing in any way as a cooperative team then we are dooming ourselves. Neither of us are winning if you find and read 12 forge ahead books and I find and read 10 forge ahead books because we could have had you or me read 22 forge ahead books and be further along together. It is stupid to compete over the same books but it usually clicks at some point. 

It really doesn't matter how altruistic your teammates are, you have to quest.

Feeding books to the right people isn’t altruism. It is self interest strategy. It’s completely different than how books were handled in the past and in any of the overhaul mods and so it makes sense that it will take a change in mindset. 
 

...then your opinion about playing as a builder would have more weight in consideration? I have actually been playing a21 as a builder and solo player...

Then your opinion about playing in a group would have more weight in consideration?

You talked as though you were playing as a team of players at first but maybe that was all speculation based on your solo play?  
 

It is true that as a solo player you must play as a well-rounded survivor and loot and read everything you find. You can’t extrapolate from that to true team play because for best results you must coordinate the reading of books — not out of altruism but out of common sense and good strategy.  

 

[Roland]

I think much of this just boils down to we aren't a group that really enjoys scavenging or questing or any of that stuff at all. I literally haven't gone on a quest in probably 3 years, it's not because the quests needed to be 'cooler' or have better loot, or just needed a better mechanic to force/incentivize me to do them, I just don't care about them. The game could literally take quests and traders completely out and it would barely affect how I play at all except sometimes when it comes to getting an auger. That's about it. 

Then your group should probably enable the creative menu and just play the sandbox aspect of the game or find a mod that allows you to ignore the parts of the game you don’t like. Looting and scavenging are major fundamental aspects of the game. 
 

You began by saying there are 10-30 of you who play together and that some like to loot but most like to do base activities. With just three looters out of thirty you should be able to progress along all the magazine trees pretty well. But now you’re changing the goalposts by saying that nobody in your group likes to loot and you all just enjoy building.  That’s great and there is a setting for that available to your group. 
 

The fact that you could play before by ignoring one of the major pillars of the game was simply due to the unfinished nature of a game still in active development. Thankfully there will be mods that will allow your group to play the game with your extreme play style of thirty people who only ever build. 

 

[Ricowan]

Well, that's a step in the right direction. I'm still hoping it's relatively trivial to mod this out (like, just remove their "looted block" reference in XML or something). I guess we'll find out on Monday.

I've been running a self-written modlet since A17, maybe earlier can't remember, that made "junk" containers and birds nests poof after looting.  I play with loot respawn set to never...

The XML attribute is called "destroy_on_close" and I added that attribute, with its value set to "true", to those two lootcontainers in the loot.xml config file.  Even if the attribute name has been changed, I'm pretty sure TFP wouldn't move this out of the config xml files so it will be trivial to find this attribute and change the value to "false" if you want to.

 

[LostBoy]

Any major bugs showing up in the streamer feeds?

From what I'm picking up here it seems things are going well but since I'm not watching any streams I don't know for sure.

I'm wondering a bit about the "Chunk reset" option.

As a SP person, does this mean I won't be able to have multiple Bases, that they'll be wiped on "reset" ?

I pretty much explore the whole map and will spend several days in different locations, and as such, it can be quite some time before I get back to my home Base and start the process (Base to Base to Base etc.) again.

Not a complaint, it sounds interesting, just wondering how it works.

 

[YourMirror]

Any major bugs showing up in the streamer feeds?

From what I'm picking up here it seems things are going well but since I'm not watching any streams I don't know for sure.

I'm wondering a bit about the "Chunk reset" option.

As a SP person, does this mean I won't be able to have multiple Bases, that they'll be wiped on "reset" ?

I pretty much explore the whole map and will spend several days in different locations, and as such, it can be quite some time before I get back to my home Base and start the process (Base to Base to Base etc.) again.

Not a complaint, it sounds interesting, just wondering how it works.

You can configure the days that it takes for the reset. And landclaims and beds areas are safe from resetting so as long as you have those down neither base will reset.

 

[Mister Forgash]

As a SP person, does this mean I won't be able to have multiple Bases, that they'll be wiped on "reset" ?

From what I've seen, Chunk reset is defaulted to off. If you turn it on, you have a choice on how many days you must be away from the chunk before it resets.
Pretty sure you can use 1 land claim block to protect 1 base [In this case, probably your main base], 1 bed roll for another- everything else you would have to visit before the chunk reset is scheduled to trigger- if you're turning it on.