PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[DuHast_Play]

I heard that alpha 22 will be the last before gold. I heard from one reviewer who also follows the news on this forum and communicates with the developers after any news ... anyway, time will tell

 

[unholyjoe]

meanwhile.... i'll bump up the amount of handkerchiefs to hand out when disappointment sets in.

wait a minute... why give them away... i'll sell them instead. wooot

Spoiler

nvm i wont say it

 

[Aldranon]

Huh? I don't know how you define "adapt" here, or if you are still playing A16? In A16 the AI was simple and at most "adapted" to the players position. After that the AI very much adapts to the players constructs. Build a pathway and they will recognize and follow it.

It even dynamically adapts to changes. Open a door or close a bridge and their approach may change. Even when they destroy some essential blocks by chance that might make a stairway out of a wall they WILL adapt to that new situation.

By adding and removing one block (a method) you can have the zombies forever moving down one path or another.  The zombies will never adapt to this infinite loop.  That is just the easiest to understand example I can think of.  The near infinite methods/constructs they build, to troll this simplistic AI behavior is not very interesting to me.   

I repeated what I said about player methods and constructs as I guess you misunderstood something.

 

[Matt115]

And in 7D2D you have to craft a Farming Plot and collect the right ingredients. Then you have to remember that your crops must have access to light.

So what?

In 7dtd just need light. In valheim flax and barley have to be planted on plains - this mean you have to make another base just for farming both. Then Jotun puffs and magecap  need soil on Mistland. so you need 3 bases for now at least + animals from diffrent biomes. You need them to make better quality food - because better quality food = more Hp and stamina + magic. This mean you don't have only need  plants but meat too - so you have tame animals which is pretty hard, then you have transport them to your base ( hard again). Plus there is fishing - 7dtd?  you can live on everything just because most hp and stamina you take from perks.

It seems to me that you like Valheim better. Great! 

Go play Valheim! But don't try to change 7D2D into Valheim, they're two completely different games with different play styles.

I tried Valheim, but I simply get bored after a while because there's so little to do, and so little to interact with compared to 7D2D. Of course, that's just my opinion, but I don't go on the Valheim forums and try to change Valheim into 7D2D, because I know the devs of that game have their own plan about their game and have their own "style" they wish to give to their own game.

In Valheim, IMO, they just give you the impression of progress. You always repeat the upgrade cycles over and over, but it's always the same stuff, they just give it a different skin and put a +1 on it. That's an old "trick" that MMOs all around the world have always used to entice people into keep playing. I don't like it.

In 7D2D, when you acquire an advantage (a new weapon, a workstation) that advantage is real, and it's meant to stay. When you start making concrete for the first time, it's a pivotal point in base building. You don't have to start over again to get Titanium, or Diamond (lol) to build a stronger base because the monsters have been granted a +1 or +2 in a new Biome.

Little to do in valheim? there is always to do in valheim.  Okay - you defeat first boss - so it's time to get copper and you need tin. You need a lot of wood to smelt them so you need a lot of wood to make coal etc. in this same time make base, tame boar, make carrot farm, beehive, boat because you will need to swim to get more ores etc. and... everything is effective.

7dtd? mining became worthless after adding tool parts - in older versions if you focused on mining you could get steel items so fast - so it was effective - now? better just to do quest or clean POI's with markering where are crates and bags then : lucky googles + candy  and you will get faster better quality item that by crafting.

In valheim you have to worry  in black forest about shamans and brute if you have bronze eq . So if you get silver eq you can just walking there like in park just do stuff and that's it .

7DTD -  low gamestage forest near trader - normal zombies

7dtd - higher gamestage  near trader - bikers  + screamers xd 

so what is a point to get better EQ if  worlds get better too like in oblivion? In oblivion you have iron armor? bandits have iron armor. You have deadric armor? sup bandits get deadric armor - you had to hit bandit 15 times on begining of the game and after 40 hours of game you have to do this same. At least in oblivion you don't have level up ( you level up during sleep) so you can progress by looking on specifc weapons so you can  reduce number of hit from 15 into 10

You saying that is always this same stuff - if you play a little bit - yeah this can looks this same but stuff get crazy - slime have resistans against piercing damage, lox against blunt damage etc. so you have think  what do you want to use later - you made a spear but want to fight with bonemass - you will deal 1/4 of dmg.

Then silver weapons get specific damage - Draugt bow - poison, frostner - cold with slowing down. And then magic showing up crossbow + harpoon which is realy useful.

But you have to safe feathers for better arrows so you mostly fight melee 

7dtd after junk guns - you find junk shotgun - ammo is everywhere so you don't have to worry anymore. Another shotgun just faster reloading and 2 bullet and a little bit more dmg but just a little bit then just change magasine and rate of fire. And that's it.

So yeah you can make new workstation in 7dtd but faster you will find specific mod or weapon that you will have enough resources. I had this situation always 7dtd

New weapon? 



So - usually stats of high quality of lower tier can be higer that low quality of newer weapon. so if you get better quality next tier - older tier stop respawn. 

But this mean more "better" enemy respawn while in valheim change nothing until you get better.

I agree that after you make concrete it will be piovital of your base but... because there is nothing better. it's like sayint that you don't better shotgun that auto shotgun while there is no better autoshotgun.

So what left? making more spikes because are the cheapest and trees are inifinte -  mines are expensive. 

electicity traps need  gas for generator - so you need parts, iron and gas for making and repairs but gas  solar pannels can help a little bit so you can save some gas for auger or vehicles and gas in not unlimited = as much gase you use then farer you have to go so this mean you have safe more gas to be able to get more gas.

So i don't say i want 7dtd to became valheim - i show on example what can be done better

 

[meganoth]

By adding and removing one block (a method) you can have the zombies forever moving down one path or another.  The zombies will never adapt to this infinite loop.  That is just the easiest to understand example I can think of.  The near infinite methods/constructs they build, to troll this simplistic AI behavior is not very interesting to me.   

I repeated what I said about player methods and constructs as I guess you misunderstood something.

What you call simplistic AI behaviour is basically what 99% of all games in history had. Even in science you will find very few expert systems that had the capability to learn. Only when neural networks became really powerful in the last few years learning became common as the basic principle of creating a neural network AI. BUT even the typical neural network AIs only learn at creation time when they go through millions of examples taken from the internet and then are static. They do not learn anymore when they are used.

You may have seen game AIs that have a few ways to react to a players strategies, but there is no learning involved, those are almost always lists of actio->reactio and if you can find a loop you can exploit you can outmaneuver those AIs just as well as the AI in 7D2D

 

[Mumpfy]

weird to be here, anyway... convince the pimps to include some id maps we can rip with the assets and ill get zeds variations in days lol. but the current process is to hand paint the id maps on top of the textures and its painful and takes lots of time, to do it right i mean, not just hue change the current textures randomly.

 

[Aldranon]

What you call simplistic AI behaviour is basically what 99% of all games in history had. Even in science you will find very few expert systems that had the capability to learn. Only when neural networks became really powerful in the last few years learning became common as the basic principle of creating a neural network AI. BUT even the typical neural network AIs usually don't learn with each interaction anymore. After they have learned from millions of examples taken from the internet they are fix and do not learn anymore.

You may have seen game AIs that have a few ways to react to a players strategies, but there is no learning involved, those are almost always lists of actio->reactio and if you can find a loop you can exploit you can outmaneuver those AIs just as well as the AI in 7D2D

You're an all or nothing kind of guy it seems, when a simple percental can create many responses to the same event/situation.   Enough that would turn the current mind-numbing and endlessly repetitive reactions into something more interesting plausible. 

Adding just one more layer of sub-responses with conditions or from other events and you have an "AI" that bandits could be very interesting and seem realistic enough (depending on programmer imagination of course).  

 

[Aldranon]

I should add that for bandits, the first layer of the "AI" would be something like this after they spot the player:

<Seek Cover><Shoot><Begin moving toward player><Begin moving around flank of player>

These events could be modified by the player:

<Shooting and missing>.

<Shooting and hitting>.

<Running away>.

<Charging>.

Ect.

So these player events can modify the Bandits subsequent actions or emotes even.   Not the easiest thing, but certainly not impossible.

 

[Matt115]

About that whole discussion, previous alphas of 7D2D may have been more difficult but they were not really much more complex. Naturally the first alphas you played looked more complex and difficult to you since you were still learning the game. It is not easy to ignore that effect when you are reminiscing about the past.

No - older were harder - zombies in A11 (or A10)  always know were you are so it was harder. meat smell - harder to get food.   guns parts as many types not one item forced to looking for specific part of gun. Cleaning corpses were hard job and you had to check if it doesn't left any body pile. farming was more complexed.    wight spawning in tunnels. much less water on map ( or i just had strange luck) , old wellness system were harder that this system.

Valheim has no difficulty setting and its only difficulty setting is much higher than default difficulty of 7D2D, maybe comparable to warrior diff in 7D2D or higher and with 25% loot !? It's loot setting can't be changed as well  and so it is much more grindy and again there is no choice for the player to change that. And many players mix up grind with complexity. Because of the set difficulty you never can relax, but its complexity is only once for the first playthrough. I have my doubts I will ever play Valheim again after the first playthrough.

Valhiem will have difficulty after new update 

" Another thing we’re looking at for Hildir’s Quest is playtesting some new server settings. We’re trying out a hard mode and an easy mode, but also a casual mode where you won’t lose gear upon death. The normal mode will still always be the best balanced version of the game, but we hope adding more ways to play the game can both provide a challenge to experienced players and open the game up to players who would rather take a calm and relaxed approach". 

change of diffculty doesn't add new enemies or mechanics. only game i remember that rly change a  gam was brother at arms: road 40  which was adding snipers. Dark souls doesn't have diffculty just new game + which ofc boost stats of enemies but adding new enemies too. 

That's why diffculty should be create by complexed mechanics which need a lot of time too learn not from just changing stats.

In my view the complexity of 7D2D is not found in combat and if you are a player who wants a zombie shooter game you can find difficulty if you change to the right difficulty settings. But you can't find complexity because you have no interest in the complexity 7D2D has to offer. Because the complexity of 7D2D is mainly in the building part and optimized horde night defense part. And that part can be easily avoided by building a simple horde base and just use tons of ammo to get rid of the zombies or even copy some base design from the internet. It is a choice and by offering this choice 7D2D gains a lot of flexibility. But with flexibility comes the choice to avoid the difficulty and the complexity. 

That's true not in combat. but building is even less important. You probably watched TWD - how is looking "making" base there

1. find building

2. barricade

3. focus on food etc.

Because it's most optimal

Because from logical point of view - nobody would make base from begining just use older buildings + using concreate military walls ( i mean portable). etc.  and that's it. Who would make villa during zombie apocalypse. Nobody - it's more like hm... sit in garnison during war - you focus on food, guns etc. not to make place beatiful.  so yeah - defence is rly important so focus on that's good thing. But nobody will make nice houses but forts 

 

[Doomofman]

Don't suppose there's any chance A21 Exp is being aimed at the Steam Spring Sale? 

 

[Aldranon]

Don't suppose there's any chance A21 Exp is being aimed at the Steam Spring Sale? 

It would be good for the business side of TFP of course.  I might be influenced by wanting it to happen then, but there's no word on Dev streamers yet.  So unlikely.

 

[meganoth]

I should add that for bandits, the first layer of the "AI" would be something like this after they spot the player:

<Seek Cover><Shoot><Begin moving toward player><Begin moving around flank of player>

These events could be modified by the player:

<Shooting and missing>.

<Shooting and hitting>.

<Running away>.

<Charging>.

Ect.

So these player events can modify the Bandits subsequent actions or emotes even.   Not the easiest thing, but certainly not impossible.

I don't say anything is impossible. I say it is normally far outside the realm of an indy game to have a foolproof AI. Players will usually find ways to exploit the AI, be it zombies (what we originally talked about) or bandits. Especially in a game where you can change the world freely to confuse the AI.

I really don't know what Faatal will make bandits do, or what some modder might do. I don't have the expectation of seeing the bandits act like in a team shooter that cost 80 Mio. to develop and has the advantage of a fixed terrain. But if it happens, I won't protest.

I am merely critizising how you look down on the "simple" zombie AI. It is far from simple to program it. And the other thing is that it should be exploitable to an extent. That is part of the fun for a new player (and even some veterans) to find new ways of making the zombies run into their doom. And sometimes die because the foolproof plan didn't go well when the player was too late opening the bridge.

Yes, I want zombies to follow clear rules for the most part. That is part of the tower defense genre that you have attackers who follow certain rules. And I want to optimizise your defenses according to these rules. How can I build an interesting "tower" if I don't know well before the attack how the attackers will react?

You're an all or nothing kind of guy it seems, when a simple percental can create many responses to the same event/situation.   Enough that would turn the current mind-numbing and endlessly repetitive reactions into something more interesting plausible. 

Adding just one more layer of sub-responses with conditions or from other events and you have an "AI" that bandits could be very interesting and seem realistic enough (depending on programmer imagination of course).  

Tell me what you want the zombie AI to do if a bridge on the current path it tries to get to the player is closed and a different bridge is opened?

 

[Doomofman]

It would be good for the business side of TFP of course.  I might be influenced by wanting it to happen then, but there's no word on Dev streamers yet.  So unlikely.

I think there's been enough hints at this point to suggest that the Dev Stream part of the release isn't going to be quite what we're used to. 

But being honest, I'm just being overly optimistic, I doubt this is what'll actually happen

 

[meganoth]

No - older were harder - zombies in A11 (or A10)  always know were you are so it was harder. meat smell - harder to get food.   guns parts as many types not one item forced to looking for specific part of gun. Cleaning corpses were hard job and you had to check if it doesn't left any body pile. farming was more complexed.    wight spawning in tunnels. much less water on map ( or i just had strange luck) , old wellness system were harder that this system.

I have not claimed that it wasn't harder, I just don't know from first hand because I started in A15.

I am talking mostly about complexity and unless farming changed multiple times it was probably the same as in A15. And then I know how farming worked and I don't call that complexity. You needed to till the ground, oh wow (nothing complex about that). I thought it was a nice mechanic that you needed a special tool for it and I personally would have prefered such "gates" to stay in the game, but that was no complexity as well.

Valhiem will have difficulty after new update 

" Another thing we’re looking at for Hildir’s Quest is playtesting some new server settings. We’re trying out a hard mode and an easy mode, but also a casual mode where you won’t lose gear upon death. The normal mode will still always be the best balanced version of the game, but we hope adding more ways to play the game can both provide a challenge to experienced players and open the game up to players who would rather take a calm and relaxed approach". 

Thanks for the info.

change of diffculty doesn't add new enemies or mechanics. only game i remember that rly change a  gam was brother at arms: road 40  which was adding snipers. Dark souls doesn't have diffculty just new game + which ofc boost stats of enemies but adding new enemies too. 

New zombie skins do not add complexity.

That's why diffculty should be create by complexed mechanics which need a lot of time too learn not from just changing stats.

I agree that complex mechanics would be nice additions to the game. Neither more zombie skins nor skeletons nor more realism would automatically add complexity though.

That's true not in combat. but building is even less important. You probably watched TWD - how is looking "making" base there

Do you mean the television series? What does the television series have to do with building in 7D2D?

1. find building

2. barricade

3. focus on food etc.

Because it's most optimal

Because from logical point of view

This is faulty logic. Logically you play a game that follows different rules than the TV show. in 7D2D you will die if you follow the rules of that TV show. You are perfectly safe from zombies in a barricaded building on ground floor in that show.

- nobody would make base from begining just use older buildings + using concreate military walls ( i mean portable). etc.  and that's it. Who would make villa during zombie apocalypse. Nobody - it's more like hm... sit in garnison during war - you focus on food, guns etc. not to make place beatiful.  so yeah - defence is rly important so focus on that's good thing. But nobody will make nice houses but forts 

I have not been talking about beautiful palaces. I should have been more clear here: I was talking about elaborate horde bases with all kinds of traps, pits, funnels, bridges, passages, shooting holes, gaps, fallback positions. THIS is complexity, but you don't need to use it. You can also build a 10x10 concrete block and put boxes filled with ammo and grenades on it.

 

[Jost Amman]

Little to do in valheim? there is always to do in valheim.

I admit I didn't play up to the levels you have probably reached in that game, but yes, after 10/15 hours I got bored and the stuff to do looked all the same, and it was an infinite grind instead of a fun game.

The landscape has very little to explore: there's a forest, and some flowers, some caves and a few ruined buildings... wow! So, much, fun.

Are you really trying to compare a random gen map in 7D2D with what little Valheim has to offer?  :confused2:

Yes, I stand by my point: in 7D2D there's so much more to do than in Valheim because there's so much more content.

And you know that just by looking at the actual content you can find in the maps you play in.

In valheim you have to worry  in black forest about shamans and brute if you have bronze eq . So if you get silver eq you can just walking there like in park just do stuff and that's it .

7DTD -  low gamestage forest near trader - normal zombies

7dtd - higher gamestage  near trader - bikers  + screamers xd 

so what is a point to get better EQ if  worlds get better too like in oblivion? In oblivion you have iron armor? bandits have iron armor. You have deadric armor? sup bandits get deadric armor - you had to hit bandit 15 times on begining of the game and after 40 hours of game you have to do this same. At least in oblivion you don't have level up ( you level up during sleep) so you can progress by looking on specifc weapons so you can  reduce number of hit from 15 into 10

You saying that is always this same stuff - if you play a little bit - yeah this can looks this same but stuff get crazy - slime have resistans against piercing damage, lox against blunt damage etc. so you have think  what do you want to use later - you made a spear but want to fight with bonemass - you will deal 1/4 of dmg.

Then silver weapons get specific damage - Draugt bow - poison, frostner - cold with slowing down. And then magic showing up crossbow + harpoon which is realy useful.

But you have to safe feathers for better arrows so you mostly fight melee 

7dtd after junk guns - you find junk shotgun - ammo is everywhere so you don't have to worry anymore. Another shotgun just faster reloading and 2 bullet and a little bit more dmg but just a little bit then just change magasine and rate of fire. And that's it.

In my opinion, you're confusing difficulty with progress.

In 7D2D difficulty ramps up as game-stage grows. On the other hand, progress is made by your own actions, depending both on how you invest in your perks, and by what you can learn (magazines) and find (loot) in the world. In 7D2D, each progress you make is permanent.

In Valheim, from what I've seen (and what I understand), difficulty ramps up with biomes (islands), but progress is just temporary, like in a hamster's wheel. You go into biomes/islands that are more difficult, but then you need to make progress with your gear to beat the new difficulty. After you do that, you start back again in the next biome, because all your progress is nullified by the new difficulty level of the monsters.

Valheim is using the well known MMO grind routine that some (like you) like, and some others, like me, don't like at all. For that reason, I think 7D2D is better in that regard: you can use the basic club you craft in the beginning, to kill both the "basic zombie" at the start of the game, and the feral zombie you fight in later stages.

A club is a club: you can use better clubs later, but your original club still works fine (you just learn to use it better maybe).

So, in the end, all that stuff that you call "complexity" and that you say is better, it's just some poor excuse for a grind mechanic that Valheim is using to keep players "busy".

 

[Laz Man]

I admit I didn't play up to the levels you have probably reached in that game, but yes, after 10/15 hours I got bored and the stuff to do looked all the same, and it was an infinite grind instead of a fun game.

The landscape has very little to explore: there's a forest, and some flowers, some caves and a few ruined buildings... wow! So, much, fun.

Are you really trying to compare a random gen map in 7D2D with what little Valheim has to offer?  :confused2:

Yes, I stand by my point: in 7D2D there's so much more to do than in Valheim because there's so much more content.

And you know that just by looking at the actual content you can find in the maps you play in.

In my opinion, you're confusing difficulty with progress.

In 7D2D difficulty ramps up as game-stage grows. On the other hand, progress is made by your own actions, depending both on how you invest in your perks, and by what you can learn (magazines) and find (loot) in the world. In 7D2D, each progress you make is permanent.

In Valheim, from what I've seen (and what I understand), difficulty ramps up with biomes (islands), but progress is just temporary, like in a hamster's wheel. You go into biomes/islands that are more difficult, but then you need to make progress with your gear to beat the new difficulty. After you do that, you start back again in the next biome, because all your progress is nullified by the new difficulty level of the monsters.

Valheim is using the well known MMO grind routine that some (like you) like, and some others, like me, don't like at all. For that reason, I think 7D2D is better in that regard: you can use the basic club you craft in the beginning, to kill both the "basic zombie" at the start of the game, and the feral zombie you fight in later stages.

A club is a club: you can use better clubs later, but your original club still works fine (you just learn to use it better maybe).

So, in the end, all that stuff that you call "complexity" and that you say is better, it's just some poor excuse for a grind mechanic that Valheim is using to keep players "busy".

It is certainly a tried and true formula that many people enjoy.  I agree though, not really an apples to apples comparison as each games have different features they excell at.

 

[Matt115]

I have not claimed that it wasn't harder, I just don't know from first hand because I started in A15.

I am talking mostly about complexity and unless farming changed multiple times it was probably the same as in A15. And then I know how farming worked and I don't call that complexity. You needed to till the ground, oh wow (nothing complex about that). I thought it was a nice mechanic that you needed a special tool for it and I personally would have prefered such "gates" to stay in the game, but that was no complexity as well.

There was fertilizer so you could make "dirt" better  and if i good remember - dirt had 3 stages of upgrade  and was good. I can't say more because i just don't remember too much.

New zombie skins do not add complexity.

Sometimes can - i give you theoretical example - you see infected pilot - so this is visual information that there is clashed  helicopter nearby which can have some goods. 

If you see zombie patients near railway - there is a chance there is  train nearby. If you see zombie with acid wounds - you can expect acid nearby or special enemy, If you see zombie with radioactive changes on skin - you can expect radioctivity.

not connected with 7dtd but still with zombies : you play in medieval game with zombie  - you see zombie merchant? maybe there is cart with good. you see zombie princess? oh there can be much more powerful nearby.  You play in sci fi with zombies - you see zombie doc? this mean there can be zombie security with armor nearby. you see burned zombies? this mean there is flamethower enemy etc.

So - skins can give  you informations that can be useful during gameplay

I have not been talking about beautiful palaces. I should have been more clear here: I was talking about elaborate horde bases with all kinds of traps, pits, funnels, bridges, passages, shooting holes, gaps, fallback positions. THIS is complexity, but you don't need to use it. You can also build a 10x10 concrete block and put boxes filled with ammo and grenades on it.

You can yes but... why do this ? i mean literaly why - Typical square fort is the most effective - mean generaly - similiar solution is used in starship troopers against bugs - just the best option is make drawnbridge with few doors and turrets behind doors and tons ot spikes. just because making shooting holes, tunnels etc. would only make thing harded because zombies are too smart so can focus on such places - while simple fort allow to check every side of fort.  making such gaps or shooting holes won't help with vultures and will just reduce visibilty. so wall in medival style are the most effective with  just courtyard with traps. 

 

[Riamus]

I've never played Valheim, though I probably will say some point, but that didn't really matter to this question.  If you prefer Valheim to this game because you feel it is more complex or some other reason, can you honestly say you will put more hours into it than you have put into this game?  If not, is it really as good?

Some things can be good in certain games, but bad in others.  What works for one genre won't work well in another and can even not work well in another game in the same genre.  And for many gamers, complexity isn't what they are looking for.  There prefer just a fun game that they can jump right into that gives them replayability.  It can be deep without being complex.

This game works so well and gets the kind of playtime as MMOs simply because it has a lot of things to do, is easy to get into, and offers variety in each game (replayability).  Now, because of the fact people put in so many more hours into this game than other games, they are going to get bored eventually of seeing the same things over and over and doing the same things over and over.  Thankfully, modding this game is not too complex and so you can easily make changes to keep the game feeling new.  The fact it has been almost 10 years in alpha means the changes over all that time have also kept it feeling new, whether you like the changes or not.  Few games get this kind of playtime other than MMOs, so they are obviously doing something right.

 

[Riamus]

You can yes but... why do this ? i mean literaly why - Typical square fort is the most effective - mean generaly - similiar solution is used in starship troopers against bugs - just the best option is make drawnbridge with few doors and turrets behind doors and tons ot spikes. just because making shooting holes, tunnels etc. would only make thing harded because zombies are too smart so can focus on such places - while simple fort allow to check every side of fort.  making such gaps or shooting holes won't help with vultures and will just reduce visibilty. so wall in medival style are the most effective with  just courtyard with traps. 

And I can pretty much guarantee you that if you only play for efficiency, you will quickly get tired of the game because you will be doing the exact same thing every game.  If you instead play for fun, you try different things even if you know they aren't the most efficient and you can enjoy the variety that the game offers.  It makes the game last much longer before getting repetitive.

 

[meganoth]

You can yes but... why do this ? i mean literaly why - Typical square fort is the most effective - mean generaly - similiar solution is used in starship troopers against bugs - just the best option is make drawnbridge with few doors and turrets behind doors and tons ot spikes. just because making shooting holes, tunnels etc. would only make thing harded because zombies are too smart so can focus on such places - while simple fort allow to check every side of fort.  making such gaps or shooting holes won't help with vultures and will just reduce visibilty. so wall in medival style are the most effective with  just courtyard with traps. 

Oh god, you are so NOT playing the 7D2D I play. What you seem to describe is exactly how a player used to shooters would play the game, and then complain that he has to work 2 out of his 7 days in the mines to get all the ammunition for the next horde night (in later stages)

The objective of a good horde base is to either make you kill as many zombies as possible with the lowest effort and ammo waste (i.e. increase effectivity) or make the zombies take as long as possible to get to you so you need to shoot much less (i.e. increase security). You can even get to the point that the traps do all the kills for you. Why would you do that? Well, for example to not work 2 out 7 days in the mines.

You really think you are more effective with having to shoot a bullet into every single zombie yourself when a sniper guy for example can headshot 3 or 4 zombies along a narrow passage or down a steep ladder with one bullet? You really think you are more effective than the guy who uses a pusher turret to collect 12 zombies in a pit and throws molotovs and grenades to finish them off, while still shooting inbetween?  You think you are as effective as the guy who shoots at zombies like you while the other half of the zombies are being shreddered by blade traps? You think wood spikes are as effective as blade traps or even dart traps?

Vultures? You can kill Vultures automatically as well, you don't need to shoot them yourself. This game is pretty good at making automated killing factories, you just have to embrace the complexity instead of thinking your glorified perch is the pinnacle of horde base.

You probably have fun playing like you do. That's fine, that is the flexibility 7D2D has to offer. But I have fun with a horde base while planning and building it, for you it probably is just a chore to make that same block of concrete again and again. And horde night is fun too because I hear zombies getting crunched to bits in a various traps while I shoot at them or even attack them in melee from a carefully built place.