Jost Amman
Well-known member
That's not simple... it's just that the player starts not knowing the game much.
Exactly like in 7D2D: you start by doing simple stuff, and after a while you find out about much more complicated stuff.
PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary
- Thread starter Roland
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Exactly like in 7D2D: you start by doing simple stuff, and after a while you find out about much more complicated stuff.
Matt115
New member
Game about zombies is about.... zombies while zombies are underdeveloped element. If it had "comic" art style like their are bilion of bordelands - small number of variants isn't a problem. In Killing floor or serious sam there is told that enemies are literaly clones.
7dtd have realistic art style like - dayz , the forest or forza horizon. So yeah - you need many diffrent looking fans on stands in FiFA - so you need much more models of zombie in 7dtd where you can find in small house 3 this same zombies
Roland
Moderator
TFP have not stated that they are done with zombie models. They have only stated that right now they are focused on raider and player models. They have enough zombie models in the game to be "good enough" for testing and development. Once all features are in the game they may focus on filling in gaps and adding variety. They are already to that point with POIs where they are now adding a huge variety of them. There is no statement by them that I'm aware of to indicate that they won't do the same with zombies at some point if they can. What they have stated is that they want the game to look good so in my mind that seems like it should include not having a wandering horde made up of five zombies and their dozen clones all in lockstep with each other. Nobody thinks that looks good. I'm optimistic this is something that will be addressed at some point but I could always be wrong.
Dreyseth
Active member
no, sorry. You've been right right far too many times. Skews your average away from the "always being wrong" designation.
Riamus
Well-known member
How many hours have you played this game? I bet it is very high. That suggests you enjoy playing the game. So is it that the lack of different kinds of zombies makes the game bad or not fun or in any way affects your fun, or is it that you have played the game so much that the lack of variety is getting boring? I mean, the lack of variety in POI and blocks and textures also makes the game boring after playing a lot and I pay more attention to those than I do zombies. I just kill the zombies. I don't pay much attention to what one it is or what it looks like. I just kill it. Now, variety in their skins rather than additional zombies would be helpful in keeping it from looking like a dozen of the exact same zombies attacking you in a row, but more types aren't really important. Besides, even with the types we have now, it doesn't affect how I kill them. I may prioritize who I kill based on what ones are there (vultures and dogs die first) and I'll hit the bomb on the demolisher while it isn't close, but when it comes down to it, I just kill them the same way regardless of what type they are. They would need to redesign combat to make having more types actually have value beyond just cosmetics. As I said, this isn't a deeper game where having hundreds of types of enemies matters. It is just fine with what it has now. I'm not opposed to more, but I'm also not going to use even a well-designed mod that adds zombies because I don't see any real need. Of course, this is only my opinion.
Matt115
New member
There is complicate stuff Jost... okay i will give you example from 7DTD - you want a gun? find a crate. what will change in future let's say after 10 hours? you will be able to find in exactly this same house this "better" gun. And that's it. Nothing more nothing less. Farming - no matter what you find aloa or potato - you make farm plot and that's it. except that mushrooms have to be undeground . In valheim in theory you can put everywhere but you have to remember that enemies can brake easy you harvest - plus you have seed harvest and edible harvest + taming animals so you have to know how much you can spend to feed animals etc.
in 7dtd have meadows , black forest , swamp mountain plains mistland and ocean. Meadows are just calm zone with weak enemies etc. and that's and except new thing that after kiling last boss will spawn mistland type of enemy in every biome - nothing will change here. black forest is a litte bit harder but swamp - poison and slow down water, mountain - cold and flying enemies. In 7dtd in theory there is similiar thing - in civilian zone you can met civilian in military base soldiers etc. but after X gamestage - you can find zombie soldiers radomly but after x time you will find everything everywhere. In older variants at least there existed "snow " variants but instead develep that idea it was removed.
7dtd workstations have upgrades - which give you feeling of doing well. In 7dtd in theory it's working similiar but... here you don't have reasons for that- you make advance workbench? you can't because you can't find better parts because you have to be in better gamestage - but you unlock this not by dunno - loot military bunkier but just do this over and over and over - you could get max tier just sitting if forest with primitive club. In valheim you can risk a lot ot get the best arrow in the game early - and you get reward. here no matter if you loot house and big tower - you will get this same reward. nothing change - in valheim you could get iron items before kiling first boss so it could be good reward. here is no reward - you get better but world get hard so.. change nothing. it's likei would give you a apple but anothet guy would take this apple from you so after all nothing changed
Riamus
Well-known member
Pretty normal. There are going to be tons of posts complaining about A21 without ever having tried it until it releases.
Matt115
New member
I hope that you are right and Devs will comfirmed that. Because this would have sense what you saying. Because - honestly this is only option for me to came back to 7dtd. Because there is not mods that would add new zombies which keep vanilia style
Blake_
Captain Obvious
@Laz Man , could you give us a sense of the amount of "multiple POI paths" and POI submodules (tiny random variations, both in the street and inside while looting) of a21 vs a20?
Stuff like: Are they more abundant? Are they "better" than in a20? How are they better? Do they have easter eggs?
Tell us about caves. I'm a caveman, I love the topic. Will we get more caves for a21?
Thanks beforearm.
Stuff like: Are they more abundant? Are they "better" than in a20? How are they better? Do they have easter eggs?
Tell us about caves. I'm a caveman, I love the topic. Will we get more caves for a21?
Thanks beforearm.
Aldranon
New member
With the small amount of information I have, A21 will be more satisfying than A20.
1) Getting to late game, alive, in A21 will be more challenging and so for me, more fun.
2) A "learn by" system that makes more sense than A20's learn by <upgrading vast concrete buildings> will help with challenge/emersion.
3) "Testimonies" of trustable people who have played A21 gives me confidence that A21 will be well worth the wait!
For the (normally) thinking people in this forum that complain about A21, I believe it's mostly misplaced frustration that it is taking longer than average.
1) Getting to late game, alive, in A21 will be more challenging and so for me, more fun.
2) A "learn by" system that makes more sense than A20's learn by <upgrading vast concrete buildings> will help with challenge/emersion.
3) "Testimonies" of trustable people who have played A21 gives me confidence that A21 will be well worth the wait!
For the (normally) thinking people in this forum that complain about A21, I believe it's mostly misplaced frustration that it is taking longer than average.
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DuHast_Play
New member
I read what has been going on here since my last visit to the forum. I agree that a variety of skins for existing zombies would spice up the game more. When they go, for example, the standard zombie Steve and 2 more versions but in different clothes. 3-4 skins for each, I think it would be nice. Or make a randomizer with body parts in different clothes. According to the technology of the player's clothes. so that pants, parts of the torso, hats and shoes are randomized.
But I'm already satisfied with what I have, as a big fan of the game, who has played more than 300 hours in a month ... very addictive) and even playing at 15 frames and freezing when opening storage (due to weak hardware) is not a hindrance)
But I'm already satisfied with what I have, as a big fan of the game, who has played more than 300 hours in a month ... very addictive) and even playing at 15 frames and freezing when opening storage (due to weak hardware) is not a hindrance)
Jost Amman
Well-known member
And in 7D2D you have to craft a Farming Plot and collect the right ingredients. Then you have to remember that your crops must have access to light.
So what?
It seems to me that you like Valheim better. Great!
Go play Valheim! But don't try to change 7D2D into Valheim, they're two completely different games with different play styles.
I tried Valheim, but I simply get bored after a while because there's so little to do, and so little to interact with compared to 7D2D. Of course, that's just my opinion, but I don't go on the Valheim forums and try to change Valheim into 7D2D, because I know the devs of that game have their own plan about their game and have their own "style" they wish to give to their own game.
In Valheim, IMO, they just give you the impression of progress. You always repeat the upgrade cycles over and over, but it's always the same stuff, they just give it a different skin and put a +1 on it. That's an old "trick" that MMOs all around the world have always used to entice people into keep playing. I don't like it.
In 7D2D, when you acquire an advantage (a new weapon, a workstation) that advantage is real, and it's meant to stay. When you start making concrete for the first time, it's a pivotal point in base building. You don't have to start over again to get Titanium, or Diamond (lol) to build a stronger base because the monsters have been granted a +1 or +2 in a new Biome.
spud42
Active member
heard of a game called GO ? just a grid and black and white tokens. simlpe game. surround the opponents tokens and turn thm into yours. person with the most tokens wins. simple premise but very subtle and complex .
BFT2020
Well-known member
That's a great example. I was thinking of chess myself. Each piece has a set of moves and that is all, but mastering the game is not simple, even though the pieces have simple moves.
Jost Amman
Well-known member
Ok, then we have very different definitions of "simple" and "complex".
When I define something complex, I don't stop at the basic understanding of it.
I define something simple or complex by considering the overall simpleness or complexity of it.
Otherwise, it's like I said before, if someone only knows "half of the story" (doesn't really know the game) he will think it's simple, just to realize later he was wrong.
But the original point was: is 7D2D a complex enough game? Matt115 thinks it's not.
In my opinion, however, simple or complex is irrelevant; the real question is: is it fun for you?
But then GO is not a simple game, it just has simple rules.
About that whole discussion, previous alphas of 7D2D may have been more difficult but they were not really much more complex. Naturally the first alphas you played looked more complex and difficult to you since you were still learning the game. It is not easy to ignore that effect when you are reminiscing about the past.
Valheim has no difficulty setting and its only difficulty setting is much higher than default difficulty of 7D2D, maybe comparable to warrior diff in 7D2D or higher and with 25% loot !? It's loot setting can't be changed as well and so it is much more grindy and again there is no choice for the player to change that. And many players mix up grind with complexity. Because of the set difficulty you never can relax, but its complexity is only once for the first playthrough. I have my doubts I will ever play Valheim again after the first playthrough.
In my view the complexity of 7D2D is not found in combat and if you are a player who wants a zombie shooter game you can find difficulty if you change to the right difficulty settings. But you can't find complexity because you have no interest in the complexity 7D2D has to offer. Because the complexity of 7D2D is mainly in the building part and optimized horde night defense part. And that part can be easily avoided by building a simple horde base and just use tons of ammo to get rid of the zombies or even copy some base design from the internet. It is a choice and by offering this choice 7D2D gains a lot of flexibility. But with flexibility comes the choice to avoid the difficulty and the complexity.
About that whole discussion, previous alphas of 7D2D may have been more difficult but they were not really much more complex. Naturally the first alphas you played looked more complex and difficult to you since you were still learning the game. It is not easy to ignore that effect when you are reminiscing about the past.
Valheim has no difficulty setting and its only difficulty setting is much higher than default difficulty of 7D2D, maybe comparable to warrior diff in 7D2D or higher and with 25% loot !? It's loot setting can't be changed as well and so it is much more grindy and again there is no choice for the player to change that. And many players mix up grind with complexity. Because of the set difficulty you never can relax, but its complexity is only once for the first playthrough. I have my doubts I will ever play Valheim again after the first playthrough.
In my view the complexity of 7D2D is not found in combat and if you are a player who wants a zombie shooter game you can find difficulty if you change to the right difficulty settings. But you can't find complexity because you have no interest in the complexity 7D2D has to offer. Because the complexity of 7D2D is mainly in the building part and optimized horde night defense part. And that part can be easily avoided by building a simple horde base and just use tons of ammo to get rid of the zombies or even copy some base design from the internet. It is a choice and by offering this choice 7D2D gains a lot of flexibility. But with flexibility comes the choice to avoid the difficulty and the complexity.
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Aldranon
New member
I agree. Complexity can actually be a hindrance to enjoyment for the average gamer.
For example, Paradox gaming makes games that are FAR from any point and click games. They are also not popular for the average gamer. Complex games are a niche.
Aldranon
New member
The zombie AI does not adapt to the players constructs or methods and so it's simple. One can enjoy that, I guess, but for me I like to let the zombie AI have a chance.
I'm hoping that the raiders AI has several AI paths based on players actions. That it (the AI) can have some raiders do one method (ie Hide) if shot at, while others will Shoot at the player, approach the player/ out flank the player. Even "calling for help" by firing a flare gun if the player is "Rambo" would be great.
You could layer that behavior with how much damage each Raider has recieved.
Fatal has something not quite that much I heard but maybe could be a A24-A26 thing?
Huh? I don't know how you define "adapt" here, or if you are still playing A16? In A16 the AI was simple and at most "adapted" to the players position. After that the AI very much adapts to the players constructs. Build a pathway and they will recognize and follow it.
It even dynamically adapts to changes. Open a door or close a bridge and their approach may change. Even when they destroy some essential blocks by chance that might make a stairway out of a wall they WILL adapt to that new situation.
And that has nothing to do with whether to let the zombies have a chance or not. That can be had in ANY alpha of the game
Compare the genre mix that 7D2D is to a dedicated team shooter and the team shooter will win. I think your expectations are a little too high here. Bandits will use cover so I hear, and I am happy about anything else that Faatal can provide, but especially since TFP also tries to codify parts of the AI in XML(!!!) there are limits to what is possible in acceptable time.
I think the next step after A22 will be either a final beta or gold. A23 is possible if they need to adjust the bandits a lot. But that is pure guessing on my part.
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