PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[zztong]

And, BTW, I think the word you're searching for is "believability", am I right?

Perhaps. I've used "realism" because that's how people have characterized/summarized those kinds of positions. I've not bothered to quibble over the wording. Indeed, the only decision I recall quibbling over with any intensity has been carrying water away from a source, which I originally characterized as "weird." I still think it is weird. Probably playable, probably enjoyable, but weird.

 

[Zombiepoptard]

You know what would be real simple? Taking a jar down to a @%$#ing stream. That is simple.

Yes, Green Hell has dew catchers, that does not mean 7d2d needs to do it too. Even if you just "want to use this cool dew catcher model someone made", then by all means add it to the game, but it certainly doesn't make any sense to get rid of stone age concept of collecting river water to force players to use the new dew catcher, does it?

For one thing, Green Hell has dry seasons, 7d2d does not. And even in the dry season players could simply build near a source of water, and thus not need one. 

It comes down to player choice.

The way this mechanic is proposed to function takes more player choice away from the game than it adds.

Honestly it is not even the addition dew catchers that @%$#es me off, it is removing the concept of "things that hold water" (i.e., jars) to force me to use a dew catcher that literally outputs jars of water that makes no @%$#ing sense whatsoever.

Players should at the very least be able to ignore that dew catchers exist if they do not want to use them, and have them as an option in a desert biome where they logically might some have a use for it. 

Please stop railroading players with mechanics that should be at the very most, optional.

Which brings me to the skill system.

The current skill with experience points and collectible schematics strikes a reasonable balance, no need to waste dev time reinventing the wheel for this ridiculously convoluted magazine-based education system which forces people to waste time collecting McGuffins.

Players want to play in a sandbox, not a cattle chute

I agree with Grue. 

There is nothing substantial to be excited for alpha 21 and I even think this update will have a net negative. 

The dew collector is probably a miss used concept from another game. Why change something that didn't need to be changed into some convoluted throw away idea. 

Skill Trees are another miss used concept implemented without any insight on what a skill tree is actually used for. This isn't Borderlands were they have 60 combat related perks on one character and the only way to balance that many perks is to separate it into multiple branches. 7 days to dies skill system is egregiously miss placed and under cooked with the learn by looting system making it even worse. The reason why fallout doesn't have a skill tree is something worth pondering for the developer who's responsible. 

They made the learn by looting change because they wanted to fabricate some shiny things with out actually creating something new and desirable. In pursuit of this easy to develop gimmicky reward system they had to sacrifice the progression system and some of the sandbox elements.

7 days to die fans are here for a sandbox experience. For me I love the quests and traders for something extra to the open ended sandbox experience. No need to swim upstream with all these weird system that flip sandbox elements. Instead you could put in features that lean into it. You can make exploring pois more like an immersive sim which will flip a more routine quest into a sandboxy diverse experience. People could choose how they want to build there character with a more open ended skill system to have a more sandbox leveling experience. It would only be restricted to by a skill cap. I fill like you guys are actively swimming upstream trying to make this game something that it's not instead of working around it's strengths.  

 

[Zombiepoptard]

Games like Borderlands is what skill trees are for. Huge amounts of combat related perks separated for balance reasons. 7 days to die has swing faster and swing harder. I spit on that "perk tree" it's pathetic. The reason they give for why the perk tree is in the game is that it provides "hard choices". WHAT CHOICES!? What build choices do you think we have?? No one uses a skill tree system like the fun pimps for a reason. If you don't have enough combat related skill than a skill tree just isn't for your game. There is choices with in normal skill trees because they have so many skills that could change the way you play. It's about diversity not "hard choices"/ @%$# choices. 

 

[bdubyah]

Why change something that didn't need to be changed into some convoluted throw away idea. 

Because it needed to be changed. TFP obviously felt the same.

There is nothing substantial to be excited for alpha 21 and I even think this update will have a net negative.

I mean, water physics finally not being a pile of poop is enough for me. And not sure how stuff being fixed, systems being tweaked, and some other new things(like tons of new assets) can be a negative. You guys are just doom and gloom or nothing.

 

[playlessNamer]

will bandits arrive 2023?

 

[Zombiepoptard]

will bandits arrive 2023?

no

 

[Chris Lenga]

Because it needed to be changed. TFP obviously felt the same.

I mean, water physics finally not being a pile of poop is enough for me. And not sure how stuff being fixed, systems being tweaked, and some other new things(like tons of new assets) can be a negative. You guys are just doom and gloom or nothing.

Water physics should have been fixed years ago. In fact, all of this should have honestly. 

 

[mstdv inc]

Games like Borderlands is what skill trees are for. Huge amounts of combat related perks separated for balance reasons. 7 days to die has swing faster and swing harder. I spit on that "perk tree" it's pathetic. The reason they give for why the perk tree is in the game is that it provides "hard choices". WHAT CHOICES!? What build choices do you think we have?? No one uses a skill tree system like the fun pimps for a reason. If you don't have enough combat related skill than a skill tree just isn't for your game. There is choices with in normal skill trees because they have so many skills that could change the way you play. It's about diversity not "hard choices"/ @%$# choices.

Spoiler

View attachment 27084

In any game, players sooner or later come to the most effective development scheme and begin to ignore everything else.The most interesting thing was the way to this most effective development while you are trying different options.After reaching it, it is difficult to force yourself to invest points in weaker perks.Players deprive themselves of diversity.

will bandits arrive 2023?

The bandits sent the following message:
 

Spoiler

"We really want to see you all, but now we are building a base, choosing clothes and accessories for our boss, he should look chic, trying different equipment options, learning to overcome obstacles and better navigate the terrain.We need to wait a little longer for our meeting.But when that happens, we'll kick your ass! 

With love, bandits
"

 

[RipClaw]

Just as you stated that the hybrid of spending points and collecting schematics was a good balance they will get to a great balance of skillpoints, schematics, and magazines after several months of obtaining player feedback about the system from people who have spent time playing with it instead of making a decision to scrap it from people who are just imagining worst case possibilities using incomplete knowledge and guesses.

And that's the part where I'm skeptical. There are players who only loot what they need, and there are players who only loot and do nothing else and then there are the players somewhere in between. One size fits all won't work but something like a dynamic system that adapts to the player would be too much of a development effort. So it's probably going to come down balancing it for the group they think have the most players and ignore the rest.

 

[meilodasreh]

I wouldn't say "ignore" the rest.

In any roleplay game (character development, collecting gear/items) there is always some builds that are superior to others, and hardcore players only choose those.

While the big majority of more casual players does build their character different (and totally inefficient/weak if you ask a hardcore player),

but  nevertheless have fun playing too...not even being aware they are "inefficient", and they themselves wouldn't call it like that anyway.

 

[maxousara]

I highlighted what I believe to be your points in green and I'll answer them one at a time.

Point 1: Player Choice

If player choice is of interest to you then you will be pleased to know that the changes have increased player choice by a fair amount. In the past, due to having infinite water from the very start there was zero choice for how to utilize your water ever. You always had plenty to do everything. In A21 you will have to make some choices for how you utilize water. This is a very good thing.

As for dew collectors they are absolutely optional. You can find portable water in loot and you can purchase it from the trader. For drinking you can go to a stream or lake or even a nearby gutter and drink your fill. You can survive at a very basic level purely on what you scavenge or trade for. Now if you want the luxury and quality of life of having infinite water to be able to once again reach the point where you have enough to do whatever you want with it without needing to make tough choices, you may create a dew collector farm which will see you stocked with all the water you'll need. Its a choice....a player choice.

Point 2: The concept of removing containers that hold water in order to force players to use the dew collector is bad

This isn't a new concept. There are no containers for any consumable in the game. Glue, gas, stew, steak and potatoes, pie, canned food, acid, first aid kits, repair kits, and more are consumables that are depicted as being in a container and yet no container actually exists. You can't make a huge pot full of stew and then craft a stack of bowls to go scoop out stew to carry around with you and then bring back the empty bowls to scoop out more stew. You can't fill up your empty gas canisters at a pump and then pour the gas into your vehicle and then bring back the empty canisters to fill them up again. None of the consumables in the game that are depicted in your inventory as being in a container give back that empty container so that you can refill it and they never have. How have you and others possibly been able to continue playing the game without all of these empty containers to be refilled? I will tell you that however it is you have been managing to figure out glue and the rest, you will quickly adapt to water since it will be behaving the same exact way every other single consumable in the game behaves and has behaved for years and years.

The change is not to force players to use dew collectors. You don't have to use dew collectors technically. The change is to bring consistency to the game across the board and at the same time close the book on infinite water beginning at day one. 

Point 3: There's no need to waste dev time on the craft system with magazines

Water under the bridge. The feature was done months ago. Now that it is done they WILL release it to their early access players to evaluate and determine how it should be tinkered. They are extremely happy with this latest evolution of the crafting/player progression system. Just as you stated that the hybrid of spending points and collecting schematics was a good balance they will get to a great balance of skillpoints, schematics, and magazines after several months of obtaining player feedback about the system from people who have spent time playing with it instead of making a decision to scrap it from people who are just imagining worst case possibilities using incomplete knowledge and guesses.

Point 4: Players want to play in a Sandbox

Players can play in a sandbox still. But you have to understand that a true sandbox is a play area without rules or constraints so that the player can do whatever they desire. For this game that means you enable godmode and creative mode. Those two modes enabled make 7 Days to Die into a true sandbox experience. In its default form 7 Days to Die is not meant to be a pure sandbox. It is meant to be a game with rules, limits, and consequences. With godmode and creative mode enabled you never need water or food at all and you can build anything out of anything with anything the game has--including some dev tools not available in the default game.  You can do whatever you want. You can fly around and spawn a bunch of zombies surrounding a POI and then fly away turn off godmode and approach the POI killing all the zombies guarding it. That's just one example but the sandbox options are endless. If players truly want a sandbox it is always available to them. When they're ready to play a game that has rules and limits and choices that is always waiting for them as well.

Your answers is good and complete but. People always found a reason for be angry and complain about the game. You have talk about play sandbox in creative mode but players would like play sandbox BUT NOT creative mode. People would like play in survival but have the choice and dont care if its logic or not they just need their sandbox and dont care about the survival aspect. Me too i Will give an exemple. I would like play survival but its not sandbox i need to eat and drink i dont have the choice to eat and drink its not sandbox. This kind of @^#%^ logic

no

Since alpha 17 we ears bandits is coming soon and now THEY COMING SOON

 

[bdubyah]

Water physics should have been fixed years ago. In fact, all of this should have honestly. 

They've had some turnover on the team, and it seems programmer-wise they are still a smallish group. Could it have been fixed sooner? Sure. But it's going to be fixed now, so maybe just appreciate that instead of making an account just to whine?

I reeeaallly hope at some point they do some kind of documentary about the development of the game. I'd love to hear all the history/hurdles the game has been through.

 

[RipClaw]

I wouldn't say "ignore" the rest.

In any roleplay game (character development, collecting gear/items) there is always some builds that are superior to others, and hardcore players only choose those.

While the big majority of more casual players does build their character different (and totally inefficient/weak if you ask a hardcore player),

but  nevertheless have fun playing too...not even being aware they are "inefficient", and they themselves wouldn't call it like that anyway.

I was thinking here more in the way how progress feels and not how efficient or inefficient it is. The player who loots 24/7 will rush through the magazines in no time. For the player who only loots the bare minimum, it will probably feel like they are barely making any progress. Only for those for whom it is balanced will it feel like the progress is adequate.

As I understand it, the goal is that what you can loot, what you can craft, and what you can buy are at about the same level. To achieve that you need to balance gamestage, lootstage and the droprate of the magazines.

 

[WarWren]

For me skill trees are for roleplaying. Learn by looting means I won't be handicapped for choosing the role I like. A 21 fixes a lot for me.

 

[Roland]

Is it possible to find out what data is being collected and will we ever be able to get any figures?That would be very interesting.
For example

Spoiler

What percentage of players played for how many hours.
How many hours in which alpha.
What is more played in solo, co-op or servers.
The average duration of one "season" of survival.
What is the most popular setting for the duration of the time of day.
What is the most popular setting for the duration of %loot.
The biome in which players spend the most time.
The most popular melee and ranged weapons.
How many billions of units of iron players have collected for all the time.
How many times have players died swallowing glass.
Whether someone died of diarrhea.

How many times the players have lost the battle with the bear.
How many times the freaking bird has parked on the players' heads.
How much time the players spent at the trader Jen.
How many times have players tried to kill Rect.
etc

It would be interesting to collect as many numbers as possible to reach gold, I think it would be interesting)

Most likely not. It is considered private information even though it is viewed in aggragate and not tied to any individual person. So it will probably not ever be released for public consumption. But....ask Rick during a future dev stream. You never know what he'll be willing to share...lol

 

[Zombiepoptard]

In any game, players sooner or later come to the most effective development scheme and begin to ignore everything else.The most interesting thing was the way to this most effective development while you are trying different options.After reaching it, it is difficult to force yourself to invest points in weaker perks. Players deprive themselves of diversity.

Yes metas exist but I don't think this game can even have a meta. You would need a more skills that change passive buffs to the character. Also I don't know how well versed you are on the topic of rpg because you'd know in a lot of rpgs there is more than one meta. This game is much to light on rpg aspects to worry about that happening. This game doesn't need a skill tree and shouldn't have a skill tree. It's better off by limiting players on how many points they can put into there character. I feel like there is only one choice. What weapon do I want to use and sometimes I have to choose shotgun every time because I like farming the other skills in the tree are good to so I'm stuck having the game make a lot of choices for me. Life skills roped in with combat skill is abhorrently stupid.

 

[Roland]

For me skill trees are for roleplaying. Learn by looting means I won't be handicapped for choosing the role I like. A 21 fixes a lot for me.

For most people. Even those who are fighting tooth and nail to try and make it so nobody ever even has a chance to try the changes will likely be the loudest voices wailing when A22 releases if the Devs dare to make changes to the magazine system they introduce in A21....lol

 

[Aldranon]

Hopefully some Devs have looked at the thought-provoking comments of the last few pages as there are some valid points made about survival. 

My take-aways from reading are:

-Allow for drinking of polluted water to stop from dying from thirst but there should be a good chance that some ill effects will progressively happen.  You could eventually progress so far that the person only has so many days left to live!  Possibly, you could require some amazing adventure and process/effort to live (IE drain the blood of a radiated zombie and run it through a chem station using expensive chems (1 of each of grandpa's elixirs for example).

-Allow mixing contaminated water at the chem station to make product, but it will consume more inputs.

I believe that making ground water unusable after many nuclear weapons were used to try and stop the spread of zombies would absolutely make drinking ground water an act of fools. For example: Europe will have 1000 additional cancer deaths related to just one nuclear incident for the next 70 years! (that's not counting the cancers that were/will be cured.)

 

[meilodasreh]

As I understand it, the goal is that what you can loot, what you can craft, and what you can buy are at about the same level. 

And this is why I said I wouldn't go so far to say that there are groups of people that are being ingored. 

I assume TFP are totally aware of that and will obviously try to balance it towards you say.

 

[Roland]

Only for those for whom it is balanced will it feel like the progress is adequate.

The people for whom the game is balanced most completely are those who play a balanced game giving their attention to building, harvesting, mining, exploring, scavenging, surviving, trading, and killing. For someone who enjoys the entire game offering they will find that they progress and learn crafting and acquire good loot and build a base and see to their survival needs in an organic and pleasing arc. For those who only wish to play a fraction of the game and ignore certain aspects they will be warping that balanced experience either to the challenging side or the exploitive side.

Yes, looting has gotten a huge shot of adreniline with A21 so people who refuse to balance their play to include looting are definitely going to be in for a challenge. I hope they are able to adapt their playstyle and discover that with the changes looting is more enjoyable than it has been in the past and there won't be very many people who decide the game is not for them. But ultimately, if someone hates looting and can't change that feeling then it really may be that this game in its final state is not for them.

But, lets hope the changes are fun for all-- enough that everyone is willing to do more scavenging and actually come to enjoy it in the new design space. We will definitely find out once the game releases.