PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[zztong]

Removing realism for gameplay is fine and I support it, but at the same time, you need to have the lack of realism actually make some sort of sense.

In a way, I kind of agree with that.

As I sit here thinking about points being made, I find myself wondering if perhaps the source of my objecting is that removing the ability to carry water away from a source is that it is "taking a capability away from humanity." Maybe I don't object to the mass excavation and transport of ore because humanity has that capability. The overall goal isn't unrealistic even if the representation of it is silly.

Water is going to be no problem within a few days even with the change, so why bother?

And I kind of agree with this too. I'd be okay if the suffering lasted longer -- maybe not the extent of The Long Dark -- but I'd also note there's a big difference between experienced 7D2D players and newbs. The suffering of Twitch newbs is amazing. I recently watched two players. They're starving and I'm thinking "give me a primitive bow, a stone spear, and a day and I'll give you each close to a stack of bacon and eggs (assuming somebody has a $%^& cooking pot)." 

 

[Jost Amman]

While I believe this is a true statement and support the Devs in their search for a way to extend the early game and their overall ability to experiment with game issues, I don't accept that "realism" has absolutely nothing to do with the game. At some point a lack of reality undercuts the game. If they were to take away gravity then it becomes hard to say the game is set in Arizona.

Perhaps gravity is too "out there" to compare to water availability, but we are talking about water. It covers 71% of the Earth's surface. All of the plant life shown in the game and all of the animals depend upon it and they're obviously living. (I've no idea if zombies need water.) Comparing it to gravity isn't so much of a stretch to me.

Except, they already took away gravity... with the magical backpack that is immune to item weight, you know.  :heh:

A perfect simulation is not the goal. But I do suggest at some point a lack of reality changes the game.

That's not the point. The point is that since this is a game, the devs can bend and twist "realism" whenever they need to achieve the goals they envisioned for it.

And, BTW, I think the word you're searching for is "believability", am I right?

 

[Grue]

I don't need to address them, because I think the current A21 implementation could be the right choice.

I could discuss any number of theories about how the game should be, but why? The devs make educated choices on their game. I can agree or disagree with them, like them or not, but I won't discuss John Doe's theories on how the game should be, because I'm only interested, to the most, in discussing feedback. This is not feedback, this is preemptive whining based on how you imagine the game will play out.

I'll gladly discuss feedback on A21 experimental when it's out, though.

I see you are not a fan of thinking ahead to avoid mistakes.

Have you heard the saying, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" or perhaps, "Measure twice, cut once"?

The time to correct course is before the mistake is made.

It is far better to give the feedback at the concept stage than to wait for them to @%$# things up then complain about it after the damage is done. By then, they will have already wasted the dev time on their new anti-features so they are more likely to fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy and run with it, than they are to correct the completely foreseeable problem(s) they should have avoided in the first place.

Which choice exactly is prevented?

The choice to go to the nearest pond/river/swimming pool to collect as much dirty water as I need.

Yes, it still needs to be boiled for food/drinks, but I should still be able to go get it in virtually unlimited quantities outside of a desert biome.

I keep hearing people say some variation of it being for game balance. That's fine, but if the implementation is anything like the A20 farming nerf, hard pass.

They made farming such a low-yield, pain-in-the-ass, time sink that it is practically not worth the effort to farm anymore.

Adding more pointless grind and wasting my time does not make for better gameplay.

As it stands, it sounds like this water nerf is just adding a pointless resource bottleneck and wasting my time for no good reason.

So let's assume, as Aldranon suggested, that the river water is contaminated with cesium for the sake of storyline and balance, what then?

For things like glue, that should not matter, we should be able to collect and use dirty water in bulk for that as we always have.

For food and drinks, logically more processing would be needed to clean the water and make it potable. Filtering, boiling etc. That makes room for a water purifier to be added in late game to handle filtering/decontaminating large quantities of dirty water.

In the mean time, there is the dew catcher comes in to provide a more limited amount of clean drinking water with minimal processing needed. Low quantity/higher quality that is the trade off.

The goal being to make the dew catcher they want to add an optional extra instead of a forced bottleneck.

The thing is that the magazine system does not force normal players to do anything that they aren't doing already. Are you going through POIs collecting stuff? If yes, you will automatically find magazines. You don't need to change your routine at all if you don't flat out ignore the scavenging part

Ironically, my playstyle is about doing very minimal looting. The bulk of my time is spent mining, crafting, and base building.

I would rather craft a new tool than go loot one.

Under the current system, if there is something you want right away, a crucible for example, spend points on it. If you rather wait try your luck at finding a working crucible or crucible schematic by looting appropriate POIs, more power to you.

With the proposed changes, instead of needing to learn/buy/loot a single schematic, it now appears the crafting is going to be locked behind looting a bunch of magazines. 

All that does is add more grind and I don't see how locking both the schematics and item quality behind a paywall of a magazines is going to make the game better in any appreciable way.

But that is almost beside the point.

I am still a bit wary of "overhauls" because the A17 skill overhaul was a steaming pile of dog @%$# and it took them literally years to make it viable again.

To put it plainly, the value of the proposed changes does not seem to outweigh the risk that they will @%$# it up from a basic risk/reward perspective.

Once bitten, twice shy.

I made a comparison. Avoiding to use the dew collector is as easy or difficult as avoiding the forge. I didn't say anything about HOW difficult it is.

In effect if Grue is okay with the forge being in the game he should be okay with the dew collector as well.

Water is daily necessary on a survival level, by comparison using a forge is a luxury.

Your character won't die for lack of a forge.

 

[meilodasreh]

And yet I assume, no matter how convenient the dew collector will turn out,

playing a survival game where you stand next to a lake or any other water source and you don't have any option to pick up water from it, will always feel...chewy.

 

[Jost Amman]

Water is going to be no problem within a few days even with the change, so why bother?

As far as I understand, it's not like that.

There are two levels of "water survival":

1. You must find water or you'll die of dehydration
   
2. After you've finally covered the basic needs (4/5 days?), you still have a limited quantity of water available for other stuff (glue, cooking, and so on...)
   

If that's the case, the changes to water are meaningful both for the early game, AND the middle game.

In late game, of course, water shouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[Jost Amman]

I see you are not a fan of thinking ahead to avoid mistakes.

Have you heard the saying, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" or perhaps, "Measure twice, cut once"?

The time to correct course is before the mistake is made.

With your own words, though, you're handling me the perfect example to explain why I disagree.

Yours (ours) comments, are vastly uninformed for now, or to the most, they're educated guesses.

Basically, we're measuring twice something that we can't actually measure.

So, in the end, you're "correcting" something without really knowing what it is that you're correcting.

Does it make sense now? At least, that's my opinion on why we should discuss possible changes only after we play the A21 experimental.

The only alternative would be for The Fun Pimps to share their internal documents (if any) where they lay out in detail what the change is, how it works (even the XMLs) and how the new water survival mechanic blends with the rest of the game. That would probably be the bare minimum to be able to give real feedback, instead of opinions on speculations.

 

[Jinx_DG]

At some point you can learn to make a dew collector that will give you X amount of glass water jars every X amount of time. Again once you drink it the jar vanishes.

From my understanding the "jar" is just a visual representing one unit of liquid. There is no "jar" to collect nor to disappear. You are collecting up to three units of water represented visually by a jar picture. Just as with "gas cans". There are no gas cans in game, but it's used as a visual for one unit of gas. 

 

[unholyjoe]

From my understanding the "jar" is just a visual representing one unit of liquid. There is no "jar" to collect nor to disappear. You are collecting up to three units of water represented visually by a jar picture. Just as with "gas cans". There are no gas cans in game, but it's used as a visual for one unit of gas. 

precisely thank you.

 

[meganoth]

Oh, sorry for "outing" the next project. It was a lucky guess. So, it's zombies in spaaaaaaaaaaace then. Umm, okay...

You didn't get the joke. I was hinting at 7D2D already playing on Zarkon-5.

 

[crazywildfire]

From my understanding the "jar" is just a visual representing one unit of liquid. There is no "jar" to collect nor to disappear. You are collecting up to three units of water represented visually by a jar picture. Just as with "gas cans". There are no gas cans in game, but it's used as a visual for one unit of gas. 

Same dang difference is it not? One dew drop or 1 jar of water. Makes no difference. People are goin to go by the picture tells them so really regardless if it represents one dew drop the picture is telling us 1 jar of water. It makes no difference either way of what you call it bottom line you don't get a empty jar back. So call it what you will. 

Edit: come to think about it. now you make me point out that drinking one dew drop would not hydrate me. So calling it that make zero sense and would be up on the list as the dumbest things on earth. Of course this is just my opinion.

As far as I understand, it's not like that.

There are two levels of "water survival":

1. You must find water or you'll die of dehydration
   
2. After you've finally covered the basic needs (4/5 days?), you still have a limited quantity of water available for other stuff (glue, cooking, and so on...)
   

If that's the case, the changes to water are meaningful both for the early game, AND the middle game.

In late game, of course, water shouldn't be an issue at all.

From my understanding glue is under consideration so a possible chance something might change on it. But we don't know for sure so as far as we know it is the same so....

 

[Jost Amman]

From my understanding glue is under consideration so a possible chance something might change on it. But we don't know for sure so as far as we know it is the same so....

The last comment from the devs on Glue was that it WILL use clean water instead of murky, so...

 

[Jinx_DG]

People are goin to go by the picture tells them

Yes they will. I propose a picture change then to something other than a glass jar. What that is I'll leave to others with more creativity than I to think on.

No one said it was one dew drop. It's one unit of water which can be any unit amount from oz to gallons. Try not to take things to literally. I've learned that lesson the hard way....

 

[meganoth]

I see you are not a fan of thinking ahead to avoid mistakes.

Have you heard the saying, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" or perhaps, "Measure twice, cut once"?

The time to correct course is before the mistake is made.

It is far better to give the feedback at the concept stage than to wait for them to @%$# things up then complain about it after the damage is done. By then, they will have already wasted the dev time on their new anti-features so they are more likely to fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy and run with it, than they are to correct the completely foreseeable problem(s) they should have avoided in the first place.

This is not the concept stage. TFP reveals features only when they are sure they are in, and they are sure they are in only after they are practically done implementing them.

And that means you are too late and too early at the same time. Too late to stop the implementation and too early to give informed feedback to the developers.

Informed feedback means feedback about how well it plays out in game, not an assessment of its realism. I am very very sure the developers already know there are big problems with the realism part.

The choice to go to the nearest pond/river/swimming pool to collect as much dirty water as I need.

Yes, it still needs to be boiled for food/drinks, but I should still be able to go get it in virtually unlimited quantities outside of a desert biome.

Ah, okay, I had thought you meant meaningful choice when you said "player choice".

If the water you get from a lake is unlimited then there is no need for any other choice since this is just without any drawbacks.

I keep hearing people say some variation of it being for game balance. That's fine, but if the implementation is anything like the A20 farming nerf, hard pass.

They made farming such a low-yield, pain-in-the-ass, time sink that it is practically not worth the effort to farm anymore.

Adding more pointless grind and wasting my time does not make for better gameplay.

There are players who want more survival than now. Others want less, like you. The devs seem to be in the first group. Simple as that. Thats the danger of a genre mix. It might appeal to a lot more players than a single-genre game, but all players who just want to play less than the whole mix get somewhat frustrated at having to play those other genre-parts.

I have a friend who absolutely hates the jump-and-run parts in many POIs. But it is part of the package and he has to endure them to play the rest of the game.

As it stands, it sounds like this water nerf is just adding a pointless resource bottleneck and wasting my time for no good reason.

So let's assume, as Aldranon suggested, that the river water is contaminated with cesium for the sake of storyline and balance, what then?

For things like glue, that should not matter, we should be able to collect and use dirty water in bulk for that as we always have.

For food and drinks, logically more processing would be needed to clean the water and make it potable. Filtering, boiling etc. That makes room for a water purifier to be added in late game to handle filtering/decontaminating large quantities of dirty water.

In the mean time, there is the dew catcher comes in to provide a more limited amount of clean drinking water with minimal processing needed. Low quantity/higher quality that is the trade off.

The goal being to make the dew catcher they want to add an optional extra instead of a forced bottleneck.

Again, the reason for the change was to make water a scarce resource, like you would expect in a survival game. The dew collectors were not the reason for this change they were part of the solution.

Ironically, my playstyle is about doing very minimal looting. The bulk of my time is spent mining, crafting, and base building.

I would rather craft a new tool than go loot one.

Under the current system, if there is something you want right away, a crucible for example, spend points on it. If you rather wait try your luck at finding a working crucible or crucible schematic by looting appropriate POIs, more power to you.

With the proposed changes, instead of needing to learn/buy/loot a single schematic, it now appears the crafting is going to be locked behind looting a bunch of magazines. 

All that does is add more grind and I don't see how locking both the schematics and item quality behind a paywall of a magazines is going to make the game better in any appreciable way.

It seems you want to play a sandbox really and don't like survival. So I would suggest you use creative menue to get yourself the ability to craft whatever you need. Or get a mod that helps you play your way.

But that is almost beside the point.

I am still a bit wary of "overhauls" because the A17 skill overhaul was a steaming pile of dog @%$# and it took them literally years to make it viable again.

To put it plainly, the value of the proposed changes does not seem to outweigh the risk that they will @%$# it up from a basic risk/reward perspective.

Once bitten, twice shy.

Any reason why the devs should listen to someone who thinks they are bad developers anyway?

Seriously, I liked most of A17. If you don't, your tastes are very different than mine and the developers obviously. You can't expect the developers to make a game they don't like and instead do one especially for you. 

Water is daily necessary on a survival level, by comparison using a forge is a luxury.

Your character won't die for lack of a forge.

You didn't get my point. I was not talking about reality, I was talking about their function in the game. And for progression in the game the forge is as important as the dew collector.

 

[Gronal]

Does it bother anyone else how this is meant to be a dev diary but is actually just people arguing?
Would be nice to have some silence in here every now and again

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

I’ll say it again.

Currently water is so easy to obtain there simply is no need for it. May as well just eliminate thirst. New system will reduce clutter and at minimum put an early game cap on how much water you have.

Does it bother anyone else how this is meant to be a dev diary but is actually just people arguing?
Would be nice to have some silence in here every now and again

Nope

 

[unholyjoe]

Does it bother anyone else how this is meant to be a dev diary but is actually just people arguing?
Would be nice to have some silence in here every now and again

this time next year, you will be singing a different tune.

this is normal activity... just have to grin and bear it because it will always be this way.

wanna see something funny... go to any other game forum and you will see the same ole thing. its not just here.

 

[Roland]

You know what would be real simple? Taking a jar down to a @%$#ing stream. That is simple.

Yes, Green Hell has dew catchers, that does not mean 7d2d needs to do it too. Even if you just "want to use this cool dew catcher model someone made", then by all means add it to the game, but it certainly doesn't make any sense to get rid of stone age concept of collecting river water to force players to use the new dew catcher, does it?

For one thing, Green Hell has dry seasons, 7d2d does not. And even in the dry season players could simply build near a source of water, and thus not need one. 

It comes down to player choice.

The way this mechanic is proposed to function takes more player choice away from the game than it adds.

Honestly it is not even the addition dew catchers that @%$#es me off, it is removing the concept of "things that hold water" (i.e., jars) to force me to use a dew catcher that literally outputs jars of water that makes no @%$#ing sense whatsoever.

Players should at the very least be able to ignore that dew catchers exist if they do not want to use them, and have them as an option in a desert biome where they logically might some have a use for it. 

Please stop railroading players with mechanics that should be at the very most, optional.

Which brings me to the skill system.

The current skill with experience points and collectible schematics strikes a reasonable balance, no need to waste dev time reinventing the wheel for this ridiculously convoluted magazine-based education system which forces people to waste time collecting McGuffins.

Players want to play in a sandbox, not a cattle chute

I highlighted what I believe to be your points in green and I'll answer them one at a time.

Point 1: Player Choice

If player choice is of interest to you then you will be pleased to know that the changes have increased player choice by a fair amount. In the past, due to having infinite water from the very start there was zero choice for how to utilize your water ever. You always had plenty to do everything. In A21 you will have to make some choices for how you utilize water. This is a very good thing.

As for dew collectors they are absolutely optional. You can find portable water in loot and you can purchase it from the trader. For drinking you can go to a stream or lake or even a nearby gutter and drink your fill. You can survive at a very basic level purely on what you scavenge or trade for. Now if you want the luxury and quality of life of having infinite water to be able to once again reach the point where you have enough to do whatever you want with it without needing to make tough choices, you may create a dew collector farm which will see you stocked with all the water you'll need. Its a choice....a player choice.

Point 2: The concept of removing containers that hold water in order to force players to use the dew collector is bad

This isn't a new concept. There are no containers for any consumable in the game. Glue, gas, stew, steak and potatoes, pie, canned food, acid, first aid kits, repair kits, and more are consumables that are depicted as being in a container and yet no container actually exists. You can't make a huge pot full of stew and then craft a stack of bowls to go scoop out stew to carry around with you and then bring back the empty bowls to scoop out more stew. You can't fill up your empty gas canisters at a pump and then pour the gas into your vehicle and then bring back the empty canisters to fill them up again. None of the consumables in the game that are depicted in your inventory as being in a container give back that empty container so that you can refill it and they never have. How have you and others possibly been able to continue playing the game without all of these empty containers to be refilled? I will tell you that however it is you have been managing to figure out glue and the rest, you will quickly adapt to water since it will be behaving the same exact way every other single consumable in the game behaves and has behaved for years and years.

The change is not to force players to use dew collectors. You don't have to use dew collectors technically. The change is to bring consistency to the game across the board and at the same time close the book on infinite water beginning at day one. 

Point 3: There's no need to waste dev time on the craft system with magazines

Water under the bridge. The feature was done months ago. Now that it is done they WILL release it to their early access players to evaluate and determine how it should be tinkered. They are extremely happy with this latest evolution of the crafting/player progression system. Just as you stated that the hybrid of spending points and collecting schematics was a good balance they will get to a great balance of skillpoints, schematics, and magazines after several months of obtaining player feedback about the system from people who have spent time playing with it instead of making a decision to scrap it from people who are just imagining worst case possibilities using incomplete knowledge and guesses.

Point 4: Players want to play in a Sandbox

Players can play in a sandbox still. But you have to understand that a true sandbox is a play area without rules or constraints so that the player can do whatever they desire. For this game that means you enable godmode and creative mode. Those two modes enabled make 7 Days to Die into a true sandbox experience. In its default form 7 Days to Die is not meant to be a pure sandbox. It is meant to be a game with rules, limits, and consequences. With godmode and creative mode enabled you never need water or food at all and you can build anything out of anything with anything the game has--including some dev tools not available in the default game.  You can do whatever you want. You can fly around and spawn a bunch of zombies surrounding a POI and then fly away turn off godmode and approach the POI killing all the zombies guarding it. That's just one example but the sandbox options are endless. If players truly want a sandbox it is always available to them. When they're ready to play a game that has rules and limits and choices that is always waiting for them as well.

 

[Roland]

Have you heard the saying, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" or perhaps, "Measure twice, cut once"?

The time to correct course is before the mistake is made.

It is far better to give the feedback at the concept stage than to wait for them to @%$# things up then complain about it after the damage is done. By then, they will have already wasted the dev time on their new anti-features so they are more likely to fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy and run with it, than they are to correct the completely foreseeable problem(s) they should have avoided in the first place.

This model you espouse is completely contradictory to the whole early access model. The devs chose early access which means they release experimental features and allow players to play with them and give feedback. Feedback will be in the form of posted opinions on the internet, telemetry data they collect, videos in which they can see reactions and thought processes of players, etc.

They really aren't asking for our feedback at the conceptual stage. That is all done in house behind closed doors. Our role and participation is at the experimental stage. 

Finally, this studio gets so much flack for reinventing and overhauling features over and over again until they are happy with them. In fact, I believe you, yourself, have criticized them for reinventing features instead of moving on to new ones--- and yet here you are saying that these devs fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy. Hahaha....if there ever was a studio that doesn't seem to care about "sunk cost" it is this one. When they say "its done when its done" they mean that at all levels. They will revisit a feature as many times as they need to in order to get it to the place where they feel it is done "sunk costs" be damned. Of course that gets them criticized by those who liked earlier versions but they are willing to pay that cost as well in order to find the end states they want for each feature. You have to figure out what you believe about these devs. Either they reinvent features over and over again or they are victims of sunk cost and stubbornly never change things once they are implemented. You can't have it both ways.

Ironically, my playstyle is about doing very minimal looting.

Your playstyle is not typical and by catering to your playerstyle the devs would be cutting out the lionshare of the community. Looting is a staple of this game and always has been. The changes in A21 do enhance scavenging and that change will positively impact the vast majority of players who do enjoy that part of the game. If you really do feel like TFP should listen to its player base then honestly you cannot deny that enhancing the looting and exploring portions of the game is them doing exactly that. You may not like it but you have to admit that "minimal looting" is not going to be the norm for the typical player of 7 Days to Die.

People who are obsessed with looting are going to find that A21 completely revitalizes their love of the game and we are sure to see exclamations of joy and gratitude for the new crafting magazine feature from them.

People who like looting will find that A21 will increase the fun of looting and their enjoyment immensely.

People who are ambivalent about looting are likely to actually enjoy looting in A21 and will probably intentionally loot more often.

People who didn't care much for looting may be pleasantly surprised. I'm not going to promise they will like looting because of A21 but there is a good possibility that some will find it enjoyable. This is even more likely for those who like crafting. Since looting will now have a purpose that aligns directly with what they want to do that may very well be the carrot they needed to enjoy looting when they never did before.

That leaves the people who hate looting and will never love looting and purchased this game with no intention of ever looting. These are the people that TFP should obey at the expense of all the rest when the new system is almost guaranteed to enhance their fun? The game can't appeal to everyone especially when two diametrically opposite preferences exist so someone is going to have to learn to adapt or move on.

I'm glad I like looting.

 

[mstdv inc]

Feedback will be in the form of posted opinions on the internet, telemetry data they collect, videos in which they can see reactions and thought processes of players, etc.

Is it possible to find out what data is being collected and will we ever be able to get any figures?That would be very interesting.
For example

Spoiler

What percentage of players played for how many hours.
How many hours in which alpha.
What is more played in solo, co-op or servers.
The average duration of one "season" of survival.
What is the most popular setting for the duration of the time of day.
What is the most popular setting for the duration of %loot.
The biome in which players spend the most time.
The most popular melee and ranged weapons.
How many billions of units of iron players have collected for all the time.
How many times have players died swallowing glass.
Whether someone died of diarrhea.

How many times the players have lost the battle with the bear.
How many times the freaking bird has parked on the players' heads.
How much time the players spent at the trader Jen.
How many times have players tried to kill Rect.
etc

It would be interesting to collect as many numbers as possible to reach gold, I think it would be interesting)

 

[BFT2020]

I highlighted what I believe to be your points in green and I'll answer them one at a time.

Point 1: Player Choice

If player choice is of interest to you then you will be pleased to know that the changes have increased player choice by a fair amount. In the past, due to having infinite water from the very start there was zero choice for how to utilize your water ever. You always had plenty to do everything. In A21 you will have to make some choices for how you utilize water. This is a very good thing.

As for dew collectors they are absolutely optional. You can find portable water in loot and you can purchase it from the trader. For drinking you can go to a stream or lake or even a nearby gutter and drink your fill. You can survive at a very basic level purely on what you scavenge or trade for. Now if you want the luxury and quality of life of having infinite water to be able to once again reach the point where you have enough to do whatever you want with it without needing to make tough choices, you may create a dew collector farm which will see you stocked with all the water you'll need. Its a choice....a player choice.

As someone who prematurely removed glass jars from the game, I can second this statement.   I have found it refreshing and fun to have to choose my limited dirty water supply between cooking, drinking, and crafting.