PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[meganoth]

Lets address your points then

You know what would be real simple? Taking a jar down to a @%$#ing stream. That is simple.

Exactly. Too simple. So it was changed for gameplay reasons. Like all other strangeness the game has you will not notice it once you get used to it.

Yes, Green Hell has dew catchers, that does not mean 7d2d needs to do it too. Even if you just "want to use this cool dew catcher model someone made", then by all means add it to the game, but it certainly doesn't make any sense to get rid of stone age concept of collecting river water to force players to use the new dew catcher, does it?

I am not aware that 7D2D got dew collectors because Green Hell has them. At least this supposed reason you invented here is a lot better than the usual "TFP did it to prevent my playstyle"

For one thing, Green Hell has dry seasons, 7d2d does not. And even in the dry season players could simply build near a source of water, and thus not need one. 

It comes down to player choice.

The way this mechanic is proposed to function takes more player choice away from the game than it adds.

Which choice exactly is prevented?

Honestly it is not even the addition dew catchers that @%$#es me off, it is removing the concept of "things that hold water" (i.e., jars) to force me to use a dew catcher that literally outputs jars of water that makes no @%$#ing sense whatsoever.

Players should at the very least be able to ignore that dew catchers exist if they do not want to use them, and have them as an option in a desert biome where they logically might some have a use for it. 

Like they are able to ignore the forge? You can find and buy water in the world and avoid dew catchers like you can ignore the forge and find or buy forged iron and steel and end products you would build in the forge. Exactly the same, right?

Please stop railroading players with mechanics that should be at the very most, optional.

Which brings me to the skill system.

The current skill with experience points and collectible schematics strikes a reasonable balance, no need to waste dev time reinventing the wheel for this ridiculously convoluted magazine-based education system which forces people to waste time collecting McGuffins.

Players want to play in a sandbox, not a cattle chute

The thing is that the magazine system does not force normal players to do anything that they aren't doing already. Are you going through POIs collecting stuff? If yes, you will automatically find magazines. You don't need to change your routine at all if you don't flat out ignore the scavenging part

 

[meilodasreh]

I don't know about that part with "just rely on buying steel instead of having a forge".

At least I wouldn't have the money to get enough for a decent lategame base.

But maybe A21 will get pricing overhaul too, so I don't complain now.

Not being anxious but curious how all those changes will feel.

 

[BFT2020]

The current skill with experience points and collectible schematics strikes a reasonable balance, no need to waste dev time reinventing the wheel for this ridiculously convoluted magazine-based education system which forces people to waste time collecting McGuffins.

The crafting system in 7D2D was broken, it needed work on it.  All you had to do was buy into one of the perks and you could start crafting T3 weapons at Q5 and bypass the other tiers.  It also couldn't keep up with the loot level progression.

The old system I would loot POIs and find multiple copies of the same schematic.  The first one had value, the other were simply cash sells if I bothered to keep them to sell to the trader.  Now, each time I find a magazine for items I am wanting to craft, I get progress with each find.

 

[Westwud]

I haven't seen this being mentioned anywhere. Now that glass jars are removed, I think it would make sense to remove empty cans as well. They are only used for making oil and can of sham which can be swapped for something like plastic polymers or raw iron. One less item to clutter the inventory.

 

[meganoth]

I don't know about that part with "just rely on buying steel instead of having a forge".

At least I wouldn't have the money to get enough for a decent lategame base.

But maybe A21 will get pricing overhaul too, so I don't complain now.

I made a comparison. Avoiding to use the dew collector is as easy or difficult as avoiding the forge. I didn't say anything about HOW difficult it is.

In effect if Grue is okay with the forge being in the game he should be okay with the dew collector as well.

Not being anxious but curious how all those changes will feel.

 

[BFT2020]

I haven't seen this being mentioned anywhere. Now that glass jars are removed, I think it would make sense to remove empty cans as well. They are only used for making oil and can of sham which can be swapped for something like plastic polymers or raw iron. One less item to clutter the inventory.

They are being removed also.

 

[Matt115]

Still no news

 

[unholyjoe]

Still no news

still no skeletons, sorry

 

[zztong]

The water changes have been made for game balance, stop.

Realism or believability have nothing to do with it.

While I believe this is a true statement and support the Devs in their search for a way to extend the early game and their overall ability to experiment with game issues, I don't accept that "realism" has absolutely nothing to do with the game. At some point a lack of reality undercuts the game. If they were to take away gravity then it becomes hard to say the game is set in Arizona.

Perhaps gravity is too "out there" to compare to water availability, but we are talking about water. It covers 71% of the Earth's surface. All of the plant life shown in the game and all of the animals depend upon it and they're obviously living. (I've no idea if zombies need water.) Comparing it to gravity isn't so much of a stretch to me.

Why don't you complain about carrying TONS of materials in your backpack?

I'll tell you why: BECAUSE IT'S A @%$#ING GAME!

Would it help? We can't pick our battles? Are you suggesting the game couldn't let us make working vehicles? Are you suggesting the game engine couldn't support a working backhoe, dump truck, etc?

All that said, I do recognize that "the game" is the practical reality that we all face. A perfect simulation is not the goal. But I do suggest at some point a lack of reality changes the game. I would be less interested in a zombie survival game taking place at the cellular level, where we all play white blood cells. I suspect I'm less interested in the struggle against zombies taking place on the planet Zargon-5. (Gosh, I hope neither of those are TFP's secret next project.)

One could easily role-play that surface water is contaminated by cesium-137 (a byproduct of some nuclear detonations).  It desolves quickly into water and becomes cesium-hydroxide.  Drinking this will just TFU your body.  After 60-90 years, it might not be absolutely terrible if you drink ground water again.

Yeh, right on. There are a number of real-world survival issues that would let the Devs take the game in a direction that gets to the same goal of extending the early game. Virtual water containers and increased difficulty for water purification don't exclude any of that. Boiled water isn't perfectly potable water. Embrace that, move the production of truly potable water to a Chem Station, and you reach the goal.

But A21 with the announced water changes is cool with me too. Lets try it. Lets see how it goes. It isn't the end of the game. Its a tempest in a tea pot.

Take away gravity though and I'm outta here!

 

[meganoth]

...

All that said, I do recognize that "the game" is the practical reality that we all face. A perfect simulation is not the goal. But I do suggest at some point a lack of reality changes the game. I would be less interesting in a zombie survival game taking place at the cellular level, where we all play white blood cells. I suspect I'm less interested in the struggle against zombies taking place on the planet Zargon-5. (Gosh, I hope neither of those are TFP's secret next project.)

Next project? What about this project?

Did you know that there is a city called Navezgane on Zargon-5 ? ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zargon-5  for more details)

 

[Morloc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zargon-5

Those are not the droids anyone is looking for.

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 

 

[meilodasreh]

But I do suggest at some point a lack of reality changes the game.

Your example with gravity fits quite well to that of @Jost Amman if you think it through.

I mean, you can build a big base made out of solid steel blocks, with the equivalent of 1000s of tons, ontop of a few flimsy plywood sticks.

Gravity isn't a thing in the game right now. 

Which is more or less the same point that Jost was bringing up, just more thought in the way of inventory space instead of structural stability.

btw I recently watched Neebs&Appsro (guess everybody knows them) playing a game called "the long dark",

which is a really serious survival game.

There you can't carry really much (weight is calculated realisticly, next to many many other things).

You constantly and unavoidably struggle what bits to take with you, and you never can stay anywhere long because you run out of resources (firewood, food, and so on).

And the list of "inconveniences" goes on and on.

I never will play that game myself.

Everlasting pain in the a is not what I call fun.

I will happily continue to carry the equivalent of a "Panamax Class" containership in my backpack in 7D2D,

knowing how silly it is, because I know otherwise it would totally suck.

 

[zztong]

Your example with gravity fits quite well to that of @Jost Amman if you think it through.

I mean, you can build a big base made out of solid steel blocks, with the equivalent of 1000s of tons, ontop of a few flimsy plywood sticks.

Gravity isn't a thing in the game right now.

I wouldn't say I hadn't thought it through, but I do take your point. Carrying a lot of stuff isn't involving gravity, per se. Never the less, characters are not floating about. You do come back to Earth after jumping. You do fall. The path of an arrow is parabolic. Etc.

I don't know that you're taking my point, however. The Devs chose to ignore reality in the case of harvesting a large quantity of natural resources even though there are viable real-world solutions that are common to the setting and sufficient game capacities to implement them. Maybe I don't have any "outrage" (too strong a word) for that when it comes to steel production, but for whatever matters of taste, I find it disappointing that I won't be able to carry water away from a lake, river, pond, or pool like our ancestors have done since before recorded history.

Am I inconsistent in my views? Perhaps. It's a luxury of being human.

 

[Doomofman]

still no skeletons, sorry

Oh I don't know about that

 

[meilodasreh]

I find it disappointing that I won't be able to carry water away from a lake, river, pond, or pool like our ancestors have done since before recorded history.

Am I inconsistent in my views? Perhaps.

I see your point, and I don't think you are inconsistent in your views.

It's the game that is (and has to be) inconsistent in some/many points for the sake of play fun against reality.

Therefore I'm also with you, right now it doesn't feel right that you can't just go fill a water container (whatever hollow thingy) in open water bodys.

Because many times the game sacrifices "obviously common sense stuff" (best example is said weight/inventory stuff) to be not too resctrictive.

Here they choose the other direction and increase it, and it remains to be seen how it will be accepted by the majority of players.

Of course water being so easy to get plenty could have also got mitigated by dramatially lowering stack size of jars, but then there would be people who would complain about the inconsistency of "why can I carry thousands of buckets full of concrete mix but only three water bottles at once?"

It all comes back to the aspect of necessary inconsistency, no matter what approach will be taken to try to balance the game in certain aspects.

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

still no skeletons, sorry

Throw the guy a bone and put a skeleton in a POI

 

[crazywildfire]

I wouldn't say I hadn't thought it through, but I do take your point. Carrying a lot of stuff isn't involving gravity, per se. Never the less, characters are not floating about. You do come back to Earth after jumping. You do fall. The path of an arrow is parabolic. Etc.

I don't know that you're taking my point, however. The Devs chose to ignore reality in the case of harvesting a large quantity of natural resources even though there are viable real-world solutions that are common to the setting and sufficient game capacities to implement them. Maybe I don't have any "outrage" (too strong a word) for that when it comes to steel production, but for whatever matters of taste, I find it disappointing that I won't be able to carry water away from a lake, river, pond, or pool like our ancestors have done since before recorded history.

Am I inconsistent in my views? Perhaps. It's a luxury of being human.

I wouldn't call it that. I'll repeat my thoughts on it I said several weeks ago......

Game play needs to always out weigh reality/immersion. I get it and totally fine with that. I also tilt my hat for them not being like other games and trying something new( I'm not talking about new in nobody else because I know other games have dew collectors). But when I comes down to it. How many survival games do we have that water/liquids are really an issue? Day z, scum, project zomboid and what rust or whatever have all kinds of drinks in loot. They also have some kind of fountain device in towns to drink from. Ark, Atlas both have clean water you can drink from. Collect rain to drink from as well as dig for water in ground if it comes down to it. Take Grounded and you find water drops and can make a dew collector. I can keep going but point is none of them are really difficult to get water. All add a water mechanic in game to must drink but none make you feel threatened really. So again tilt my hat to try something different but what do we really gain out of it? We done been told by day 4 you can have a dew collector so what by day 14 you will have 4 or 5 or even more? So we don't gain much out of this to be excited about in my personal opinion. It really doesn't add much to the game changing it to just struggle for the first 2 or 3 days.

I don't know that just my opinion. I'm not against it but I'm also not excited for it either.

 

[zztong]

Next project? What about this project?

Did you know that there is a city called Navezgane on Zargon-5 ? ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zargon-5  for more details)

Oh, sorry for "outing" the next project. It was a lucky guess. So, it's zombies in spaaaaaaaaaaace then. Umm, okay...

 

[Riamus]

I wouldn't call it that. I'll repeat my thoughts on it I said several weeks ago......

Game play needs to always out weigh reality/immersion. I get it and totally fine with that. I also tilt my hat for them not being like other games and trying something new( I'm not talking about new in nobody else because I know other games have dew collectors). But when I comes down to it. How many survival games do we have that water/liquids are really an issue? Day z, scum, project zomboid and what rust or whatever have all kinds of drinks in loot. They also have some kind of fountain device in towns to drink from. Ark, Atlas both have clean water you can drink from. Collect rain to drink from as well as dig for water in ground if it comes down to it. Take Grounded and you find water drops and can make a dew collector. I can keep going but point is none of them are really difficult to get water. All add a water mechanic in game to must drink but none make you feel threatened really. So again tilt my hat to try something different but what do we really gain out of it? We done been told by day 4 you can have a dew collector so what by day 14 you will have 4 or 5 or even more? So we don't gain much out of this to be excited about in my personal opinion. It really doesn't add much to the game changing it to just struggle for the first 2 or 3 days.

I don't know that just my opinion. I'm not against it but I'm also not excited for it either.

This is similar to what I've been thinking all along.  Water is going to be no problem within a few days even with the change, so why bother?  Now, I am happy to get rid of glass bottles and cans as I have no real use for either.  Other than my first game, I have rarely ever filled up a glass bottle because it isn't ever necessary.  But I think the fact that you can drink directly from water, but not collect it is just dumb.  Either remove drinking from water sources entirely (say they are too radiated or whatever) or allow collecting water from water sources you can drink from.  It really makes no sense otherwise.  Removing realism for gameplay is fine and I support it, but at the same time, you need to have the lack of realism actually make some sort of sense.

Oh, sorry for "outing" the next project. It was a lucky guess. So, it's zombies in spaaaaaaaaaaace then. Umm, okay...

"Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!"

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

Dammit I’d love to hear info as to what theme the new projects will have and what type of setting.