dcsobral
New member
So, basically, this was madmole's attempt to appease Mat115 by making newstands more relevant?Let me rephrase that. Magazine stores will be hot targets as well....
PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary
- Thread starter Roland
- Start date
- Status
Guppycur
Well-known member
So as you know, Valheim is a fantastic game, and has many many features I'd love to see in 7days. I've been slowly modding features in, but I was wondering about fast travel/portals?
Have y'all considered introducing them?
On one hand, it doesn't really fit thematically with the current stage of the game, but on the other, if earned or as a quest reward or as a jump start to a quest itself, it could be an amazing add.
Something I hope you guys consider.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgCDX7NioZE
Another thing I'm wholly interested in is upgrading workbenches by placing bench addon's nearby; I know we used to be able to upgrade workbenches by adding things like a crucible and whatnot, have y'all put any consideration into workbench upgrades by proximity?
Have y'all considered introducing them?
On one hand, it doesn't really fit thematically with the current stage of the game, but on the other, if earned or as a quest reward or as a jump start to a quest itself, it could be an amazing add.
Something I hope you guys consider.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgCDX7NioZE
Another thing I'm wholly interested in is upgrading workbenches by placing bench addon's nearby; I know we used to be able to upgrade workbenches by adding things like a crucible and whatnot, have y'all put any consideration into workbench upgrades by proximity?
LagunaFox
New member
Now then, I apologize for the double post but I really want to say that I love this idea. I've always had a bone to pick with the way crafting weapons works in this game honestly (I started with alpha 19 myself but I do have nearly 1,000 hours in the game at this point). I always hated that you can just go kill 1,000 zombies, level up and spend the perk point to improve something that will let you craft better weapons. I'm sorry but killing zombies does not make the knowledge on how to make a better gun just pop in your head, it doesn't work like that lol.
The old learning by doing system had potential and I played the Darkness Falls mod at least in part because I wanted to experience that system but I ultimately found that it was very resource intensive, mostly the resource of time - it took forever to upgrade skill levels that way by doing very tedious work. I think this new system is the most logical, realistic and immersive system that you could use honestly. If civilization ended tomorrow most of us wouldn't have any idea how to build a gun or maintain it, however we can read so all we need is to find a set of instructions.
I also hated that some gun schematics were entirely pointless. Like why does the ak schematic even exist? If you are going to be making an ak you are going to be putting points into the machine gunner perk to create higher quality guns and the very first perk point you put into machine gunner automatically unlocks ak crafting anyway. There is literally no point in that schematic existing what so ever, same can be said for the pistol schematic or the double barrel shotgun schematic.
I have mixed feelings on linking magazine drop rates to the weapon perks. On the one hand I like the ability to influence what kind of drops I'm going to get so that I can create a specific build that I want to use. I've often felt like the smg gets relegated to late game a little too much when I think it should be a mid game alternative to things like the ak and tactical assault rifle. On the other hand I'm worried that this means you'll never get magazines for weapon classes that you aren't putting perk points into making it a little harder to have a good variety of weapons that use all the ammo types in the game. The main reason why I think the changes to ammo drops and other things work currently is because you can just make the pipe guns and use a different ammo type with another gun when you run out of one kind of ammo, even more so when you move past the pipe weapons into the 1st, 2nd and 3rd tiers of loot.
I think overall this will be an excellent addition to the game but I really hope we don't have a ton of really badly balanced versions of this initially or it will put a lot of people off on the system entirely. First impressions do matter a fair bit so I hope a lot of time and effort goes into finding the right balance for this system in terms of drops and how they scale with the pace of leveling up and increasing difficulty as we players progress through the game.
The old learning by doing system had potential and I played the Darkness Falls mod at least in part because I wanted to experience that system but I ultimately found that it was very resource intensive, mostly the resource of time - it took forever to upgrade skill levels that way by doing very tedious work. I think this new system is the most logical, realistic and immersive system that you could use honestly. If civilization ended tomorrow most of us wouldn't have any idea how to build a gun or maintain it, however we can read so all we need is to find a set of instructions.
I also hated that some gun schematics were entirely pointless. Like why does the ak schematic even exist? If you are going to be making an ak you are going to be putting points into the machine gunner perk to create higher quality guns and the very first perk point you put into machine gunner automatically unlocks ak crafting anyway. There is literally no point in that schematic existing what so ever, same can be said for the pistol schematic or the double barrel shotgun schematic.
I have mixed feelings on linking magazine drop rates to the weapon perks. On the one hand I like the ability to influence what kind of drops I'm going to get so that I can create a specific build that I want to use. I've often felt like the smg gets relegated to late game a little too much when I think it should be a mid game alternative to things like the ak and tactical assault rifle. On the other hand I'm worried that this means you'll never get magazines for weapon classes that you aren't putting perk points into making it a little harder to have a good variety of weapons that use all the ammo types in the game. The main reason why I think the changes to ammo drops and other things work currently is because you can just make the pipe guns and use a different ammo type with another gun when you run out of one kind of ammo, even more so when you move past the pipe weapons into the 1st, 2nd and 3rd tiers of loot.
I think overall this will be an excellent addition to the game but I really hope we don't have a ton of really badly balanced versions of this initially or it will put a lot of people off on the system entirely. First impressions do matter a fair bit so I hope a lot of time and effort goes into finding the right balance for this system in terms of drops and how they scale with the pace of leveling up and increasing difficulty as we players progress through the game.
Matt115
New member
Well... this works this way sometimes. i'm not joking. Ofc you will not figured out how to make AK47 but you can figured out something unespected - few gunsmith by their war experience use a strange solution to improve weapons
Yes i love this too. and honestly... i hope this will have a lot of upgrades
Roland
Moderator
Thanks for coming out of lurking. Hope you continue to post
The new system isn't going to remove the feeling of killing zombies and then getting better at farming (for example). You will still earn xp for killing zombies which will poop out skill points when you level up which you can then use to better yourself at things that have nothing to do with killing zombies. The best solution for that is to play the game without specifically trying to grind for xp doing just one activity that seems to be the best generator. If you focus on doing some of everything then the skill points feel like a general reward for being a well rounded survivor and then there isn't that feeling of disconnect between how you get the points and what you spend on them.
But I agree that where crafting is concerned the new system really delivers on giving you the feeling that you are learning to craft better by finding and piecing together old world knowledge which is definitely better than kill zombies -->make better shovel.
Yeah weird...There were no pipe weapons before A20 so perhaps they thought that if someone who didn't plan to perk into machine guns found an AK47 recipe early and could craft one for themselves it would be pretty cool and a nice alternative to the primitive bow or blunderbus. But I agree that finding one outside of the first week or so is probably pointless.
Don't worry. If anything you will wonder whether the perk boost is actually helping you because you get such a mixture of so many different magazines...
We'll see
Things will definitely be spicy after A21 releases because everyone who suspected they wouldn't like and then try it and don't like it will come back to give their feedback.
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Uncle Al
Active member
The forthcoming crafting system seems to be raising an interest in discussing learn by doing systems again. I'm unsure why, but for what it's worth, here's some comments on LBD with reference to the proposed crafting system:
I'm a firm believer that gameplay trumps realism when it comes to game systems. I'm happy with being able to carry quarter of a million tons of concrete, but forty different types of flower slows me to a crawl.
That said, I don't think LBD systems are so much 'more realistic' than the perk allocation systems. You don't learn to make steel tools by working in stone. So with most LBD systems the knowledge still 'pops into your head'. If you want a realistic LBD system you should have to try and do things like make a pistol, with a 0.1% chance of success, because you have no skill, and you ruin the parts if you fail. If you succeed, you get a chance for a skill up in pistol smithing. Realistic, yes, but it sounds like a horrible game system.
'By doing' systems aways run into the issue that you don't want people to learn from doing, you want them to learn from 'doing usefully'. Constructing lots of rules for what's useful (can you skill up by repeatedly hurting your team mate then healing each other up, thus gaining weapon and first aid skills?) requires intensive development. It's far easier, and actually gets a similar result overall, if you just abstract 'doing something useful' into exp and let players gain exp by 'doing anything useful'. That's the current perk approach - killing zombies, building, crafting and trading are seen as 'useful' so they give exp, and you don't worry too much past that point.
The downside is there's no granularity to exp. You just gain it in the same flavour no matter how you earn it. Varying the method of earning exp just varies the rate of gain - mining and building win out in the current model. That's not too big a problem because most players aren't fanatical min-maxers, and there are other benefits to killing the zombie who's chewing your face off even though ignoring them and keeping mining is better from a pure exp standpoint. Gaining xp without gaining gear is also not purely beneficial due to other game systems.
For crafting, the new system adds some granularity. You still have to do 'something useful' to skill up (loot appropriate containers) but what you loot, and what perks you've picked, influence the type of exp you get. It seems a good trade off where 'doing something useful' is still pretty abstracted, but the player has some control over the outcome. After all, isn't that what we want from a progression system? Agency, visible improvement, an avoidance of having to do 'weird things' (cacti anyone) in order to progress our characters and a development effort that's reasonable within the timeline of the project (so no sets of thousands of rules as to which scenarios should 'count' for learning and which don't).
My biggest concern for the proposed system is actually the biggest weakness of LBD - there's a risk of ending up with builds all being very similar. A system where you have to sacrifice something else to skill up in athletics, for example, generates much more diversity than one where your skill ticks up from running. Hopefully the ability to target containers, coupled with adjustment to magazine drops by perks, will prevent this happening.
I'm a firm believer that gameplay trumps realism when it comes to game systems. I'm happy with being able to carry quarter of a million tons of concrete, but forty different types of flower slows me to a crawl.
That said, I don't think LBD systems are so much 'more realistic' than the perk allocation systems. You don't learn to make steel tools by working in stone. So with most LBD systems the knowledge still 'pops into your head'. If you want a realistic LBD system you should have to try and do things like make a pistol, with a 0.1% chance of success, because you have no skill, and you ruin the parts if you fail. If you succeed, you get a chance for a skill up in pistol smithing. Realistic, yes, but it sounds like a horrible game system.
'By doing' systems aways run into the issue that you don't want people to learn from doing, you want them to learn from 'doing usefully'. Constructing lots of rules for what's useful (can you skill up by repeatedly hurting your team mate then healing each other up, thus gaining weapon and first aid skills?) requires intensive development. It's far easier, and actually gets a similar result overall, if you just abstract 'doing something useful' into exp and let players gain exp by 'doing anything useful'. That's the current perk approach - killing zombies, building, crafting and trading are seen as 'useful' so they give exp, and you don't worry too much past that point.
The downside is there's no granularity to exp. You just gain it in the same flavour no matter how you earn it. Varying the method of earning exp just varies the rate of gain - mining and building win out in the current model. That's not too big a problem because most players aren't fanatical min-maxers, and there are other benefits to killing the zombie who's chewing your face off even though ignoring them and keeping mining is better from a pure exp standpoint. Gaining xp without gaining gear is also not purely beneficial due to other game systems.
For crafting, the new system adds some granularity. You still have to do 'something useful' to skill up (loot appropriate containers) but what you loot, and what perks you've picked, influence the type of exp you get. It seems a good trade off where 'doing something useful' is still pretty abstracted, but the player has some control over the outcome. After all, isn't that what we want from a progression system? Agency, visible improvement, an avoidance of having to do 'weird things' (cacti anyone) in order to progress our characters and a development effort that's reasonable within the timeline of the project (so no sets of thousands of rules as to which scenarios should 'count' for learning and which don't).
My biggest concern for the proposed system is actually the biggest weakness of LBD - there's a risk of ending up with builds all being very similar. A system where you have to sacrifice something else to skill up in athletics, for example, generates much more diversity than one where your skill ticks up from running. Hopefully the ability to target containers, coupled with adjustment to magazine drops by perks, will prevent this happening.
POCKET951
New member
Speaking of everything giving exp. Is there any chance harvesting your farm crops could give a little more exp than it currently does? it rewards a pitiful amount of exp compared to everything else you do that DOES give you exp. Building gives you boatloads more exp. I wouldn't mind if farming exp was a bit more substantial because farming exp is just so inconsequential atm.
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Matt115
New member
Well this interesting topic because it's something new - there is no point to talk about caves or zombie variants because nothing new happens about that
BobbyLee298
New member
I know LBD is gone but honestly it would been cool to see a comeback for the small things like looting and crafting speeds (not crafting tiers that was op). like yes people used to abuse the system and get their levels up fast but for something like looting, there's really no way of "boosting" because you have to loot a different containers every time so technically you just gotta go out and loot. Its was a fun PASSIVE mechanic in the game that whenever you saw something like "Looting Leveled up" it would be a "o nice" moment...
Also the new crafting system LBL sounds cool, but its also seems like a glorified schematic system with tiers tied to it... Honestly tho cant wait to try it out to get a real impression of it, for all i know this could be a nice add-on to the game! maybe... ha
And since im ranting already.... This one is more of a question.
Death in A19 is meh i can die and its not a big deal, heck my broken foot and infections are gone! All you lose is just some XP and yours stats are down until you make the xp back... Does TFP have any plans on updating the death system to be alittle more undesirable? say like the old wellness system
Also the new crafting system LBL sounds cool, but its also seems like a glorified schematic system with tiers tied to it... Honestly tho cant wait to try it out to get a real impression of it, for all i know this could be a nice add-on to the game! maybe... ha
And since im ranting already.... This one is more of a question.
Death in A19 is meh i can die and its not a big deal, heck my broken foot and infections are gone! All you lose is just some XP and yours stats are down until you make the xp back... Does TFP have any plans on updating the death system to be alittle more undesirable? say like the old wellness system
Matt115
New member
Blake_
Captain Obvious
Workbench upgrades are a "meh" from me. Bases are usually crowded enough already, and it would be only visual as the feature is already in.
"Portals" are a strong YES though, as a fast travel option, like a guy with a car/horse that takes you to a quest or a trader for X amount of dukes, I deem it very cool. It may need to be instantaneous, for MP reasons.
Deceptive Pastry
New member
This would be less of a problem if the devs view on how 7d should be played wasn't different from their own view a few years ago, and wasn't constantly changing. But this really encapsulates my experience with 7 days since I've started playing. We are at the whims of developers who are constantly changing their minds and nothing is going to change that, and nobody will be able to get used to or pin down what the experience of playing 7 days is like or is "supposed" to be like until it is finished, whenever that may be. Until then, those of us who were more happy with what the devs views were 3-4 years ago when we originally bought the game will have to mod.
Also, part of the draw of survival crafting games like this is having more freedom as to how to play. That in itself is a selling point. 7 days increasingly tells us that more and more of our playstyles are "wrong", apparently.
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faatal
Fun Pimps Staff
Nothing in particular. A few editor improvements. Performance seems a bit better.Nice. Any new features in that release you guys can take advantage of? Or just wanting to stay current?
KhaineGB
Well-known member
That's a shame. I was hoping unity and slipped in some secret sauce you folks could use.
I've noticed the editor seems to load WAY faster on 2021.3 vs 2020.3.
Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
What specific change rubbed you the wrong way and why? The reasoning behind the upcoming crafting change was fully shared by Roland. Was there something you disagreeded with it inparticular?
Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
Hi Deceptive,
I read your post back on 5/22, and see your concern with the new crafting changes. As Roland mentioned, the weighting is not as severe as many have worried about. Hopefully folks will still find it still more enjoyable then unlocking recipes via skill point investment. I see you enjoyed the previous LBD mechanics and this change probably won't change your mind in that regard. However, I hope you still find it more enjoyable then what we currently have in A20. As a side note, the art team did a stellar job with all of the magazine designs and hope that further enriches the experience for all.
RipClaw
Well-known member
I can tell you what my concerns are as a single player. As a single player I have to decide how to spend my time.
If I spend two in-game weeks building a large base in A20, then I can use the XP I get to unlock new recipes through the skill tree or make a better quality of what I have already unlocked. For example, if you put your points into Advanced Engineering, you can unlock the recipes for the traps that you can use to defend the base you are building.
In A21, after the two weeks of building, I will not have unlocked any additional recipes, nor will I be able to craft better quality equipment. If you' re cynical, you might say that the two weeks of work are wasted time.
Games'n'Grumble
Active member
It's a prison, right? Someone from the team is working on the POI of the prison. Right? Or a POI yacht? Did I guess right?I'm working on a large POI right now actually. It should be done for A21 at the rate im going. Just not finalized yet if it will be T4 or T5.
Some of the other guys have some large POIs in the works but not sure they will make it in A21 but knowing them, they will make every effort to try to get them in.
On the other hand, I have a feeling you guys will have enough to chew on in A21 regardless....
Callum123456789
Active member
that reminds me of the prison that was removed from rwg after a18 wonder when thatll make a come backIt's a prison, right? Someone from the team is working on the POI of the prison. Right? Or a POI yacht? Did I guess right?
Guppycur
Well-known member
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