PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Uncle Al]

So trader stage is in development for A21. My question is how do you plan on balancing the traders vs looting? Currently the trader circumvents the majority of loot/gamestage progression  and if it is over tuned and the trader becomes worse than loot why interact with them? Trading needs to be at worst, slightly better than what you are looting or else it isn't rewarding enough to justify it

I'd offer a counter argument that if traders offer loot that, quality wise, is slightly worse than the average you're looting, traders remain worthwhile without being overpowering.  The reason being you can pick and choose with traders, so you're only buying stuff you haven't been able to find.  Loot and trader stock are both somewhat random, but within that quite large random pool of trader stock you only buy whatever stuff is good for you.  You also have the option to save dukes and/or go to another trader.  That means bought loot is inherently high value, although what is high value will vary from player to player and from day to day with the same player.

If you're looting mostly Q3 weapons, but you really want a crossbow and none are dropping, the trader selling a Q2 crossbow isn't useless, it's great.  If the trader is selling/rewarding Q5s you're probably never going to keep anything you loot.

It seems much more sensible, design wise, to have traders as a safety net for unfortunate looting results, rather than the primary source of good gear.

 

[POCKET951]

I'd offer a counter argument that if traders offer loot that, quality wise, is slightly worse than the average you're looting, traders remain worthwhile without being overpowering.  The reason being you can pick and choose with traders, so you're only buying stuff you haven't been able to find.  Loot and trader stock are both somewhat random, but within that quite large random pool of trader stock you only buy whatever stuff is good for you.  You also have the option to save dukes and/or go to another trader.  That means bought loot is inherently high value, although what is high value will vary from player to player and from day to day with the same player.

If you're looting mostly Q3 weapons, but you really want a crossbow and none are dropping, the trader selling a Q2 crossbow isn't useless, it's great.  If the trader is selling/rewarding Q5s you're probably never going to keep anything you loot.

It seems much more sensible, design wise, to have traders as a safety net for unfortunate looting results, rather than the primary source of good gear.

I actually agree with this post. I just hope traders have near parity with all the other sources of loot in the game though

 

[Uncle Al]

I actually agree with this post. I just hope traders have near parity with all the other sources of loot in the game though

And I agree with this one!

Diversity of viable strategies is a big part of fun in sandbox style games, so ensuring one approach isn't totally eclipsed by others is important.

Crafting is, for me, in worst place currently, with traders leading and looting in second place.  I'll tend to weapon craft maybe twice in a playthrough.  Once to get an early Q2 or Q3 iron melee weapon and then again to make a Q5 T3 weapon.  It does look like the crafting changes are going to address that.

There's still going to be an issue with crafting getting eclipsed by quest rewards and purchases unless traders are rebalanced somewhat, but I belive that's coming too.

It occurs to me that balancing prices is really, really hard, as the rate players can earn dukes varies so much between players.  Someone who knows how to maximise income probably earns easily at 10x the rate or more of someone who doesn't. 

Therefore it's probably a lot more effective to ensure traders are balanced by limiting their inventory (keeping it fairly small and keeping quality levels on par with, or lower than, what you can craft and/or loot at the same lootstage) than tinkering with prices.  If inventory balance is in place, the average players can buy a couple of things that are useful to them, while the moghuls with piles of cash are only slightly better off - they can buy a lot more stuff that is progressively less useful (because you buy the most useful stuff first). 

I think there's also room to have buying basic resources be more viable than it currently is (personally I can still never face a solo playthrough without 2-3 points in miner 69er - if you could reliably buy stone/clay/wood etc. in significant quantities it would be a bit more feasible to have builds that just don't gather, increasing diversity).  Currently there seems to be too much access to 'rare' stuff - especially weapons, tools and armour far above what's currently lootable for you, while access to basic materials through trading is relatively poor.

 

[Gamida]

@faatal, You mentioned you were working on improvements for glass blocks. Any chance we can get a two way mirror block.

I use to use a mod someone made many alphas ago but of course it doesn't work now.

 

[sloejack]

I saw some notes about A21 on reddit that drove me here and thought I would toss out my $0.02 since this upcoming change looks like it will have a significant negative impact on me as a player.

Because I play with multiple loot ninjas, multiplayer scavenging/job completion is already somewhat frustrating.  This new change to crafting and loot contents feels like it will be the final nail in the coffin for playing this multiplayer.  The current system while still somewhat annoying at least meant that I could still participate in the game without too much conflict as magazines are nice boosts but not a gate to progress.  Without instanced loot this newest change creates a new axis of conflict that's not worth the game. 

A brief read through recent posts here seems like this path is set. Please at least consider implementing a player instanced loot for items that impact the ability to progress your character so that even if you play with loot ninjas you can still progress at a reasonable pace.

 

[RipClaw]

A brief read through recent posts here seems like this path is set. Please at least consider implementing a player instanced loot for items that impact the ability to progress your character so that even if you play with loot ninjas you can still progress at a reasonable pace.

The trader sells magazines and offers them as rewards for quests. But I don't know much that is compared to what you find in loot during the quest and if it is enough for a reasonable pace.

 

[sloejack]

The trader sells magazines and offers them as rewards for quests. But I don't know much that compared to what you find in loot during the quest.

The trader will have a limited random supply relative to what you can get from jobs.  I actually like scavenging and discovering stuff, but the loot/container mechanics are not good for multi-player. For me it largely leads to feels-bad experiences whether it's waiting to get into a storage container (because the clock doesn't stop while waiting to get access to the shared loot boxes) or getting beat out of the experience of looting something by someone who zoomed past you while you were fighting, it's just a fun-siphon.

 

[Jost Amman]

The trader will have a limited random supply relative to what you can get from jobs.  I actually like scavenging and discovering stuff, but the loot/container mechanics are not good for multi-player. For me it largely leads to feels-bad experiences whether it's waiting to get into a storage container (because the clock doesn't stop while waiting to get access to the shared loot boxes) or getting beat out of the experience of looting something by someone who zoomed past you while you were fighting, it's just a fun-siphon.

This brings back what I said a long time ago: MP and SP balancing should be completely separated.

I know it's a lot of work for the devs, but IMO they should have separate (alternative) loot tables for MP versus SP, it's the only way we don't end up fighting over scraps.

I don't care about MP and I don't want the game to be "ruined" by MP players needs.

There's already the useless "Carismatic Nature" perk, that is completely unused in single player games.

That, in itself, is IMO a design flaw.

 

[Victor.19]

@RolandCan they give us a peek at the bad guys? Something to make us more excited about A21.

 

[Callum123456789]

@RolandCan they give us a peek at the bad guys? Something to make us more excited about A21.

to be honest i dont think they have bandits in right now but i did hear a little while ago they have someone working on them full time 

 

[sloejack]

I don't care about MP and I don't want the game to be "ruined" by MP players needs.

There's already the useless "Carismatic Nature" perk, that is completely unused in single player games.

That, in itself, is IMO a design flaw.

I think the assumption with this statement is that there's a state in the game that you should have all of the perks/abilities and they are all useful all the time.  Not sure I agree with the sentiment but I understand where you're coming from.  I'm not sure how MP functionality detracts from the SP experience, but we definitely see how the SP mechanics impact MP experience

 

[JCrook1028]

but this sounds like this change will also extend to skills as well.

Nope, it only applies to crafting. Not how effective you are at mining with the tool or shooting with the gun.

 

[Callum123456789]

borderlands support barrels confirmed for 7dtd? nah im only joking lol its just that this caught my eye 

 

[Telly G]

barrels have always exploded when struck, they just made it so only certain things explode barrels now.

 

[Callum123456789]

barrels have always exploded when struck, they just made it so only certain things explode barrels now.

i mean it says aoe debuffs maybe like an acid effect

 

[Slingblade2040]

Are some new ores or maybe smelting options for mass producing going to be introduced?  Not to mention a overhaul to the options menu. I don't know if I'm speaking for myself but an advanced options menu where we can adjust wandering horde size, damage done by zombies, adjustments to trader and vending machine restock days and a few other things would be amazing and make the game not just more challenging for some of us seasoned players but also give us a huge QoL improvement as far as adjusting game difficulty goes. 

 

[Vintorez]

The main thing that I would recommend implementing with the new system is for the magazine loot table to factor in all player's perk adjustments, perhaps with its own slider akin to the kill xp share range.

So let's say you set the range to 10k. If I go looting as an SMG user, I would also find magazines suitable to my Shotgun user friend who prefers to stay near the base and gather raw resources. I may find less of my own because the quantity would stay the same, but it means my friend doesn't fall behind just because looting isn't his responsibility. Or we can just set the range to 100, and that way we can let your speed looter do his thing while still getting our cut.

Perhaps even better it could just be a toggle in the social menu that can be flipped on the fly. Tick on "Enable Party Loot" and everyone who also enables it will be factored into a communal magazine probability table. Then if somebody needs to catch up or just wants to speed ahead a bit more they can drop out (with an automatic party alert) and take on a few POIs to get their ranks up.

The fewer people you play with, the more work each individual has to do. If you play solo then you need to be a jack of all trades to an extent. But in multiplayer players often divide the responsibilities, and some end up looting far less than others by choice. I think it's a fair assumption that every play group will have somebody looting, but the new system assumes that every player will be looting, which is not always the case and a scenario that should be accounted for.

 

[Guppycur]

@meganothView attachment 24984

I hope this helps illuminate how dangerous hosting this game is. I am going to bed. Do what you will with my nightmare I lived. I just know that this game has security flaws on top of the other stuff.

...any port scanner will find your open ports.  There are a bazillion ways to get your IP, I'd rather not make it even MORE difficult for players to join than it already is, thank you.

 

[Roland]

but the new system assumes that every player will be looting

I think you and others are assuming a stronger perk boost to magazines than exists. Even perked into a couple of skills that match magazines you still find a wide variety of magazines. The boost is really more of a safety net against never finding the magazines that you really want. I'm not against an option to merge allies' perk boosts into one team boost for anyone that loots. I just don't really think it is as necessary as some are worrying it is. You have no idea whether there will be any significant disadvantage for those who don't loot and rely on their friends to bring back what they need-- you are just afraid that might be the case. If someone is out looting and finds 3 magazines that align with what the person is home building wants and 4 magazines for themselves at the end of the day then there isn't really that large of a disadvantage. I think teams will know more after actually playing with it how it will affect their dynamics. I guess the big question remains, how often were people crafting the weapons they perked into anyway? They spent their perks in their chosen specialization but was that to get the bonuses for the weapon or so they could craft it? I guess if they always crafted their own weapons then this is going to be a big change for them but if they usually had someone on their team offer to buy them their weapon of choice they just saw at the trader or found in a treasure room or received as a quest reward then there will be no real difference for them. They will still be able to use the skill points they earned by building and mining to improve their skill in their weapon.

 

[Laz Man]

I think you and others are assuming a stronger perk boost to magazines than exists. Even perked into a couple of skills that match magazines you still find a wide variety of magazines. The boost is really more of a safety net against never finding the magazines that you really want. I'm not against an option to merge allies' perk boosts into one team boost for anyone that loots. I just don't really think it is as necessary as some are worrying it is. You have no idea whether there will be any significant disadvantage for those who don't loot and rely on their friends to bring back what they need-- you are just afraid that might be the case. If someone is out looting and finds 3 magazines that align with what the person is home building wants and 4 magazines for themselves at the end of the day then there isn't really that large of a disadvantage. I think teams will know more after actually playing with it how it will affect their dynamics. I guess the big question remains, how often were people crafting the weapons they perked into anyway? They spent their perks in their chosen specialization but was that to get the bonuses for the weapon or so they could craft it? I guess if they always crafted their own weapons then this is going to be a big change for them but if they usually had someone on their team offer to buy them their weapon of choice they just saw at the trader or found in a treasure room or received as a quest reward then there will be no real difference for them. They will still be able to use the skill points they earned by building and mining to improve their skill in their weapon.

Roland makes a good point here.  If crafting wasn't significant to a player before, its not going to be different to them afterwards if they don't engage in the new system.

I predict the people who will have the toughest time adapting to this change are those who got use to perking into unlocking a specific recipe right away.

Personally, I feel unlocking recipes via magazines is far more rewarding then unlocking them via perk points.  There is also the upside that you no longer limited to what you can craft.

You now have more incentive to loot and have an additional avenue to obtain better quality weapons/armor.

Edit: I imagine this would improve multiplayer as well as it introduces another commodity to seek/trade/sell amongst each other.  It also feels immersive as it feels more natural to find lost knowledge of the past this way.