PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

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Not sure if I've ever seen this asked before, but it is worrying me only slightly: for modlet/mod makers, how difficult would anyone say the change is going to be from modding A20 and below vs A21? What, if any, changes are going to need to be made to make a mod/modlet compatible with the next Alpha, given the changes to perks and crafting? With the way the new magazines/books sound, modlets that have any schematics are going to have to update their schematics to fit into this new Learn-By-Looting model, and as such, how difficult is that going to be for a beginner/moderate/advanced XML modder?

 
Slasher said:
Golf club 
Cricket bat
miniboat
a Watch, why can i tell the time off rip. 
Fishing
Roaming hoards
Chicken, Deer, Rabbit, Lion, Bear, Dog.   yeahnah*Meat*
Ziplines?
Smell?
Katana
Guitar
Radios around town, be a better place for all that music to be.
Blowdarts
Kicking

Zombies still do this weird oh you've struck me in the face kind sir let me lay down and instantly get back up. Guppy
 
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This is all extremely silly and I love it. Thank you for sparking joy in my life. My favorite is blowdarts. Completely out of left field lmao.

 
meganoth said:
Riamus already answered the questions.

About that line. I once played the Exitus Extreme overhaul mod, it actually had you going to the toilet and afterwards use toilet paper. The author team obviously thought it was a good idea and seemingly wanted to play that way, everyone in my group hated it. There's many lines that can be drawn, I personally have no problem with gas cans in the game and don't expect to have any with water behaving the same. I have played RPGs for years and most or all of them did not give me back empty potion bottles after I drank anything. Maybe that is the reason I don't think a second about this being strange.

Go on. Your idea is to make the process more complicated or timeconsuming. I don't see how exactly more complicated helps here. Are we talking "new-players-won't-understand-it-and-die-of-thirst"-complicated? Obviously TFP can't go that far. But then what? 

Lets see timeconsuming. Just tell me what you think should be the time to produce 1 jar of water be? Just like now produced in the campfire? If not, where?

If in the campfire how can you prevent the player just setting up 10 of them? If not in the campfire, how can you insure that the player has access to it from the start?
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Complicated in the sense of the process that is happening in that workstation and maybe adding an extrastep. How does TFP ensure players don´t just set up 10 dew collectors on day one? Exactly like that and how i already said in my post before.

I am not here to provide a working alternative that is ready to be put in the game with all details solved, it´s a suggestion/argument. No need to go that much into detail. I simply showed that it doesn´t need to be a solution that feels so artifical. You like what TFP did, good for you. I am just here saying it would be way better to have more reasonable solutions if possible and it would be possible here with not more work or time needed than the solution TFP came up with.

 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
Complicated in the sense of the process that is happening in that workstation and maybe adding an extrastep. How does TFP ensure players don´t just set up 10 dew collectors on day one? Exactly like that and how i already said in my post before.

I am not here to provide a working alternative that is ready to be put in the game with all details solved, it´s a suggestion/argument. No need to go that much into detail. I simply showed that it doesn´t need to be a solution that feels so artifical. You like what TFP did, good for you. I am just here saying it would be way better to have more reasonable solutions if possible and it would be possible here with not more work or time needed than the solution TFP came up with.
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Well, it was your claim that other solutions exist that are on equal footing with the current solution and more immersive.

Almost everone who doesn't agree with this change automatically makes that claim, some others even add the word "easily" to imply that they thought about a solution for a minute and got one that works. Until someone comes along and pokes holes into that scheme.

My point is that those minutes are not enough to think through an idea. And even if someone (you for example) only postulates that such a different equivalent solution exists he still is only offering an unsubstantiated claim. Such a solution may exist but one can only be sure by actually designing and testing one. And no, you can't just be sure it must exist, for that the variables involved are too many.

At the moment you simply showed almost nothing: You only showed that you believe in the other solution existing because you started to think about it and saw a few promising directions where a solution might be found.

Other ways to make water scarce do exist, no doubt about that. But whether they work for single player, multi player, newbies, experienced players and don't disrupt other systems or open up new problems, THAT is the important question to ask.

 
@meganoth Look i know it´s possible that´s all what i am saying. The solution TFP presents is NOT the only solution possible. Do you understand that now or do i need to tell you in caps lock that i simply only showed that TFP didn´t come up with the only solution possible nor with the most reasonable solution possible?

I don´t know why you get so hostile, it´s almost like you made this and are now angry because people don´t like it and god forbid, even have own ideas. How dare we have our own opinons.

It´s not my job to come up with solutions, nor do i have to provide every detail needed jsut to be allowed to voice my opinion that the existing one is bad. If TFP doesn´t want people to voice their opinion then they shouldn´t reveal any details.

 
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Do the devs intend to make the game harder to mod when it finally goes "gold?" I mean, if the game is still just as moddable, then people endlessly griping should be able to play exactly the way they want.

Can a mod or dev answer this simple question? Will the game still be moddable? 

 
Mods can´t be the anwser to everything. Modding in a group is always a hassle. And the more things you need to mod to have a good experience the more likely it is you stop playing and look for something that suits you more. 

And the idea alone that mods won´t be possible after release propably gave a few people a heartattack when reading it. That would cause a huge outrage in the community even if they just would make it harder just for the sake of it. There is no reason at all to do that. Unless steam workshop has some stupid rules that i don´t know about, but that would be a good reason to not use it then tbh.

 
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Laran Mithras said:
Can a mod or dev answer this simple question? Will the game still be moddable? 
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even tho we are in development stage and been some quorks here and there... TFP has always wanted and will make 7dtd completely mod-able as possible.

one of the owners (joel) has modded several other games and loves modding. any rumors of TFP not wanting 7dtd modded are just that... rumors  and should be ignored.

enjoy :)

i myself will be glad when 7dtd is gold then all the rumor vines can be cut/mowed down. :)

 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
@meganoth Look i know it´s possible that´s all what i am saying. The solution TFP presents is NOT the only solution possible. Do you understand that now or do i need to tell you in caps lock that i simply only showed that TFP didn´t come up with the only solution possible nor with the most reasonable solution possible?
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I can easily agree to it not being the only solution. And if by "reasonable" you just mean "immersive/realistic", then I would agree as well.

pApA^LeGBa said:
I don´t know why you get so hostile, it´s almost like you made this and are now angry because people don´t like it and god forbid, even have own ideas. How dare we have our own opinons.
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Nothing hostile in my answer to my knowledge, sorry if you have that impression.

pApA^LeGBa said:
It´s not my job to come up with solutions, nor do i have to provide every detail needed jsut to be allowed to voice my opinion that the existing one is bad. If TFP doesn´t want people to voice their opinion then they shouldn´t reveal any details.
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Churchill once said "“Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”. I agree that you don't even need to show that there are more immersive solutions. Almost by definition anything that simulates real life in greater detail is more immersive for example.

Only when you would claim that solutions exist that are actually "better" overall in solving the game play issues (like a good way to have water scarcity in the game) then I would object and ask for an actual method as proof.

If you didn't do that and I just misread, then my objection is moot.

 
meganoth said:
Go on. Your idea is to make the process more complicated or timeconsuming. I don't see how exactly more complicated helps here. Are we talking "new-players-won't-understand-it-and-die-of-thirst"-complicated? Obviously TFP can't go that far. But then what?
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I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but to me it isn't water that is scarce. It is the knowledge and resources needed to purify water that is rare. Most people think boiling water is enough to purify water. It's an important part, but not a complete answer. But that's reality and the game is more important, which comes down to what the goals are for the game's experience. Like many (most?), I'm happy to wait and try A21 in the spirit of the evolution of the game, experimentation, etc. I may even like it. I'm trying to keep an open mind despite my criticism. I suspect TFP and I have the same goal -- a more lengthy period of time where water is relevant to game play.

What I see right now, based entirely on what has been presented, is that fresh water scarcity is desired and that the scarcity goes away around day 3-5 depending on when you can get a water filter and make a dew collector and that murky water is a common drop that can be converted to boiled water once you have a cooking pot, also probably meaning potable water is not an issue after day 3-5. Somebody who runs everywhere might need two Dew Collectors or at least dedicate one spot in inventory to carrying around a cooking pot so they can boil what they harvest from POIs when they need it. (I usually carry a pot and a grill, but then I'm prone to play as a nomad, so "home base" is my vehicle's inventory.)

After day 3-5, players with goals that require a larger volume of water still have to work to improve their capacity to generate water, which will be in the form of more and more dew collectors.

Carrying water away from a lake works around TFP's ability to control the pace at which murky water is found. They can otherwise control the loot lists and tune murky water so that it is more or less common.

So, to me, I wonder if this new arrangement actually achieves the goal. If the goal is water scarcity for 3-5 days, then it sounds like it does. I look at 3-5 days and think it could be longer. To make it last longer, I think the best course of action is to make it so that boiled water still has a chance of dysentery. This leaves the more advanced water (made with coal and a plant) to represent potable water. Dew Collectors and Boiled Water becomes an important step, but not a complete answer.

Thus, back to the opinion I expressed above in this post, the limiting factor blocking unlimited potable water isn't really the availability of murky water, but the knowledge and tools to make potable water, which I think can involve more in-game effort to establish and lead to a scarcity period longer than 3-5 days. It wouldn't really matter if you can carry water away from a swimming pool, unless murky water were good enough for most recipes.

Which is the better game in the eyes of the masses? I have no idea.

 
unholyjoe said:
in a21 the buckets are ONLY used to transport water to a spot that you designate such as you created a swim pool/spa/drinking hole or whatever.

that bucket can not be put on a campfire or any fire to boil water. sorry  :)
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Oops, that was a typo. I meant can't.  I'll fix it to avoid confusion.

 
Laran Mithras said:
Do the devs intend to make the game harder to mod when it finally goes "gold?" I mean, if the game is still just as moddable, then people endlessly griping should be able to play exactly the way they want.

Can a mod or dev answer this simple question? Will the game still be moddable? 
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As Joe already answered, TFP has always been very supportive of modders. I don't see that changing as it just keeps their game alive even longer.

To your point about complainers just modding the game to their liking, I've noticed a lot of people here seem to have about the same feeling running a mod as turning the creative menu on. Even if it's a simple xml mod to change the values of water, they'd rather cry to TFP to change it than install a small mod to do it for them. Some kind of...purist mentality or something. But there have been several that always just shrug off the suggestion of mods as if that taints their game or something. It's real odd to me. Why just use a mod and enjoy the game when you can waste your time crying to TFP about stuff that likely isn't going to go your way, amirite?

 
bdubyah said:
As Joe already answered, TFP has always been very supportive of modders. I don't see that changing as it just keeps their game alive even longer.

To your point about complainers just modding the game to their liking, I've noticed a lot of people here seem to have about the same feeling running a mod as turning the creative menu on. Even if it's a simple xml mod to change the values of water, they'd rather cry to TFP to change it than install a small mod to do it for them. Some kind of...purist mentality or something. But there have been several that always just shrug off the suggestion of mods as if that taints their game or something. It's real odd to me. Why just use a mod and enjoy the game when you can waste your time crying to TFP about stuff that likely isn't going to go your way, amirite?
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I can partly understand that attitude, actually. I think even those who criticize TFP, unconsciously admire the way they try to balance the game. So, if anything they ask for passes the devs test, then it's an official recognition that their idea was good and balanced.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the core issue that many have with mods, is that modders seldom need to worry about game balance too much (if at all), so it's like winning a fixed match, and you simply can't have the same kind of feeling of achievement. The exception is for overhaul mods that often try to make explicitly the game harder and dedicate more time to connect several changes together in a more balanced (or at least in a no-nonsensical) way.

 
Jost Amman said:
I can partly understand that attitude, actually. I think even those who criticize TFP, unconsciously admire the way they try to balance the game. So, if anything they ask for passes the devs test, then it's an official recognition that their idea was good and balanced.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the core issue that many have with mods, is that modders seldom need to worry about game balance too much (if at all), so it's like winning a fixed match, and you simply can't have the same kind of feeling of achievement. The exception is for overhaul mods that often try to make explicitly the game harder and dedicate more time to connect several changes together in a more balanced (or at least in a no-nonsensical) way.
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Yeah, I am one who rarely uses mods in games even if there are good ones out there.  There are a couple reasons for that, at least for me. 

First, I always work toward achievements in games and most games don't allow achievements while using mods.

It can also be a pain finding mods that I actually like.  Too often, a mod will add or change things that I don't want beyond the things I do want.  I commented on that in a thread a little while ago where I mentioned that I love all the vehicles that one of the vehicle mods here add to the game, but I don't want all the parts you can loot filling up my inventory with stuff I'll never use or only use to make one or two vehicles.  That outweighs the benefit of the new vehicles for me.  That happens too often with mods that do more than one thing.

Mods can also break with new versions of the game and mod authors don't always update them, causing you to not be able to continue using the mod.  Once you are used to using one and having it no longer available it's just as bad as having major changes that we see happen each alpha with this game that we may perceive as bad.

In the end, I prefer to see things added to vanilla than need to use a mod for them... as long as they make sense for the game.  There are some mods that clearly wouldn't be good to have built into the game itself. 

The exception I make is for things like maps in other games or prefabs in this one.  I don't mind using them.  As for other mods, I'll tend to wait to use them until I'm tired of playing the game and need something to keep me interested. 

Again, that is just how I view mods.  There are many great mod authors out there for all kinds of games and I support what they do even if I normally won't use the mods.

 
Laran Mithras said:
I mean, if the game is still just as moddable, then people endlessly griping should be able to play exactly the way they want.
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I think at the moment modding is too complicated for the majority of players, even if tools like the modlauncher and tutorials try to remedy this.

The situation will certainly improve with the integration of the Steam Workshop, but even that has its limits.

For example, players want to have certain things but there is no such mod and they do not have the required knowledge to create a mod on their own.

 
TFP can absolutely make lore to justify dew collectors in a zombie apocalypse. Toxic water cannot be made clean by simply boiling it. Personally I'd like to see a distilling device as an advancement on the dew collector. Moreover, taking jars to a river for water isn't a done thing. Taking buckets however....we can still do that. Whatever we feel about what should or shouldn't happen we are really just accepting our own version of fantasy because there are zombies after all.

 
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