PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Jugom]

Let them refill empty jars, but only from one of those big blue canisters that will have to be placed inside your LCB area and have to be manually filled with buckets.
But the bucket disappears after each use. 
 

 

[Trankitas]

Do you mean the weight-based inventory system ? That's Undead Legacy.

I mean a little slot based system, like Diablo 2. 

Spoiler

I mean a little slot based system, like Diablo 2. 

Spoiler

That would also mean not being able to carry 20 weapons on your backpack, you would have to store some of them in your now super useful 4x4 Truck

 

[meilodasreh]

Well, if I had to do the devil's advocate, I could say that, unlike water will do in A21 with streams/pools, you WILL get fuel canisters by wrenching cars... so how do you explain that? If fuel worked like water, you shouldn't be able to get fuel from Fuel Pumps and by wrenching cars.

There is such a big number and variety of different stuff you can pick up/use.

No matter how things are handled, there will always be some inconsistency concerning how stuff behaves, what stack sizes are possible and so on,

at least if one has in mind some degree of realism like "if item A has such behaviour, then this similar item B should have the same".

Question would be: is it managable to get A-Z consistent behaviour over all similar items...and will it maybe kill the fun if achieved...so is it even a desirable goal to put effort in?

 

[zztong]

"Empty glass bottles" being removed is absolutely unrealistic and a bad change to the game.

"Players can drink directly from water sources with empty hand by pressing "e"" <-- If we can do this then we're going to be even more tied to a water source than before. OR! Now, let me dig deep in my thinky organ here, we could take this thing called a "bottle" or a "jar" and umm, ok now let me think, dip it in to the now apparently fresh drinkable water, and take it with us to drink while we're out and about in the world. Revolutionary idea I know. 

I assume it will be possible for a Mod to change it so that you can use your hand to gather a jar of murky water from a water source. Then you could either drink the murky water or carry it away. It would take longer than A20 to gather a bunch of murky water, but I think that's fine. I'm hopeful this would be only an XML change.

I wouldn't say the presence/absence of an empty jar is itself good or bad.

 

[NekoPawtato]

Is trader inventory still going to be shared across all players in A21? Or does every player see a unique list based on their progression?

I'd worry that with removal of secret stash you'd have less pickings on bigger multiplayer servers if trader inventory is still shared. At least if someone buys all the food/medicine from vending machine/trader, you still have a chance in the secret stash.

 

[bachgaman]

so the secret stash is disappearing in A21, another hefty blow to the intelligence tree.

I really hope Madmole has some good stuff cooking for the int tree rework  in A21 or else its just going  to be the flat out most worst most useless tree in the game. 
I understand that the skill tree balance is asymmetric.

but each tree needs to have appealing and interesting/impactful choices . I really hope we don't end up entirely ignoring int because it has become totally unimpactful and irrelevant to gameplay

By playing through intelligence, you can get a concrete base with crucible by the end of the first week even playing on hard difficulty with reduced loot. What other branch of skill tree allows you to achieve this? Given the difficulty of the first BMs, this is an obviously overly redundant progress that was not foreseen by the developers. Intelligence absolutely broken in current state with secret stash and quest trader rewards. 

In addition, only by playing through intelligence you are guaranteed to quickly get transport and a workbench. Which also makes the game easier. And it is in the intellect that there is an explosive with which you can protect yourself from any blood moon with the almost free to craft pipe bombs.

 

[Doomofman]

But at the same time a hefty shot in the arm to crafting. I craft so much more in A21.

As for the perk trees and skills, you can expect some

View attachment 26637

Is that changes necessitated by the Learn by Looting change or are we getting some other changes too? Like making the Strength tree not so OP perhaps

 

[sillls]

Happy Veterans day! US

 

[falloutcloud]

I'm always excited to try new things. Even if I end up not liking the new systems I still want to try them out. I am really looking forward to the steam workshop integration. 

 

[Howlune]

The glass jars are not actually removed. They are just not physically represented in the game any longer. They still show up in the icons for water, tea, etc and when you drink you will still be drinking from a jar. It is simply an abstraction exactly like every other container in the game. It is no worse than not getting an empty bowl or plate after eating a meal, or not getting an empty canister after using gas or acid. Somehow....some way...you have been able to play the game and not be bothered by the realism of there not being any empty containers of anything in the game-- except for drinks. I can promise you that it doesn't take very long at all for your mind to accept the absence of physical glass jars exactly the same way as your mind has been accepting the absence of all of the rest of the empty containers of the consumables you've been using in the game for years.

For preventing the player from having an infinity loop of drinkable water on the very first day of the game it is actually a very good change. As to whether you end up enjoying the gameplay of it or not, that remains to be seen.

The water from water sources is murky. It isn't fresh drinkable water without consequence. You take damage from drinking straight from a water source and you have a small chance to get dysentery. So really it is just for emergencies until you can get your dew collector farm up and running. You will also find some murky water already in bottled form as you loot which you can take home and boil up for clean water also in a jar. You are still going to be able to carry jars of water around with you in your inventory. But the jars disappears after you drink the water so you can't refill them.

While I wasn't initially a fan of the idea of taking away glass jars, I'm starting to agree with this change. It was a simple case of "oh look, they're taking another thing away and requiring you to think even less*... but I never really thought about the fact a player could go to any water source and instantly get 125 bottles of murky water and basically be set for a very long time with little to no effort. Unfortunately, it still feels as though Food and Water is of little importance to most players as killing yourself and respawning instantly heals all injuries, fills all meters, and just about completely renews you at the cost of a pretty small amount of time wasted. I can understand how difficult it is to balance making survival mechanics matter while not making the game frustrating or punishing enough for players to not want to play... but deaths seem pretty inconsequential when they basically rewind all those injuries, infection, the food and water loss, etc.

Something I admired about the wellness system back in the day is on top of you being alive, you had something you had to keep a proper balance of lest you die and lose it. I am not saying wellness was better, it had its pitfalls (like getting to a point you basically can't die, having so much food that gave the most wellness, etc). I get the idea of respawning is like waking up from a bad dream, it's a cool concept... but it feels like players will get a broken leg and not have a splint readily available, so they opt to "wake themselves up again" instead.

 

[Roland]

While I wasn't initially a fan of the idea of taking away glass jars, I'm starting to agree with this change. It was a simple case of "oh look, they're taking another thing away and requiring you to think even less*... but I never really thought about the fact a player could go to any water source and instantly get 125 bottles of murky water and basically be set for a very long time with little to no effort. Unfortunately, it still feels as though Food and Water is of little importance to most players as killing yourself and respawning instantly heals all injuries, fills all meters, and just about completely renews you at the cost of a pretty small amount of time wasted. I can understand how difficult it is to balance making survival mechanics matter while not making the game frustrating or punishing enough for players to not want to play... but deaths seem pretty inconsequential when they basically rewind all those injuries, infection, the food and water loss, etc.

Something I admired about the wellness system back in the day is on top of you being alive, you had something you had to keep a proper balance of lest you die and lose it. I am not saying wellness was better, it had its pitfalls (like getting to a point you basically can't die, having so much food that gave the most wellness, etc). I get the idea of respawning is like waking up from a bad dream, it's a cool concept... but it feels like players will get a broken leg and not have a splint readily available, so they opt to "wake themselves up again" instead.

That’s why I like the setting Lose All On Death. It’s a fair trade to lose your entire inventory for gaining back health, fullness, hydration, and healing of all debuffs. It also brings a bit of “degradation” into the game since your gear goes poof if you die. Plus there’s the benefit of not having to waste time running back for your backpack. 
 

I do agree that there is a real problem with death erasing status effects. It’s been brought up a lot internally and there’s been talk about creating a setting for persistent stats through respawn but it just hasn’t reached the priority list yet. 

 

[Roland]

Let them refill empty jars, but only from one of those big blue canisters that will have to be placed inside your LCB area and have to be manually filled with buckets.
But the bucket disappears after each use. 
 

It might not be a bad idea to allow players to use a bucket of water with the dew collector to instantly fill it if they don’t want to wait for the timer. The bucket would be consumed and the water block used to fill the bucket could also be used up. For those suffering in their thinky things for not being able to transport water from a water source to their base to build up their water supply, this could be a soothe and a comfort. 
 

Could possibly be a modded by adding a fuel slot to the dew collector in which you place a bucket of water and once it is consumed the dew collector is full. 

 

[NekoPawtato]

While I wasn't initially a fan of the idea of taking away glass jars, I'm starting to agree with this change. It was a simple case of "oh look, they're taking another thing away and requiring you to think even less*... but I never really thought about the fact a player could go to any water source and instantly get 125 bottles of murky water and basically be set for a very long time with little to no effort. Unfortunately, it still feels as though Food and Water is of little importance to most players as killing yourself and respawning instantly heals all injuries, fills all meters, and just about completely renews you at the cost of a pretty small amount of time wasted. I can understand how difficult it is to balance making survival mechanics matter while not making the game frustrating or punishing enough for players to not want to play... but deaths seem pretty inconsequential when they basically rewind all those injuries, infection, the food and water loss, etc.

Something I admired about the wellness system back in the day is on top of you being alive, you had something you had to keep a proper balance of lest you die and lose it. I am not saying wellness was better, it had its pitfalls (like getting to a point you basically can't die, having so much food that gave the most wellness, etc). I get the idea of respawning is like waking up from a bad dream, it's a cool concept... but it feels like players will get a broken leg and not have a splint readily available, so they opt to "wake themselves up again" instead.

Maybe randomly lose crafting skill points in a random category? So you have to find the magazine and re-read. It would also mean they still hold value in keeping even if you hit max crafting skill for that category

Or once factions get implemented you lose some faction points with whichever side you are on

 

[RipClaw]

I get the idea of respawning is like waking up from a bad dream, it's a cool concept... but it feels like players will get a broken leg and not have a splint readily available, so they opt to "wake themselves up again" instead.

Yes, there are players who simply commit suicide to heal their leg, but I wouldn't use them as a benchmark. I think most players avoid dying.

 

[BFT2020]

How about avoiding deaths with skills rather than exploits? I am sure that I would have died more than once because of this, if this idea was realized. But such a decision would encourage players to play harder, rather than abuse poorly developed mechanics. Therefore, the game would be more interesting

You call it an exploit, however, it is a game mechanic.  But hey I am game, I would stop placing a block down to hop over a fence while trying to get away from a pack of zombie dogs if the  game would allow me to pull myself over the fence like I can do in real life, or climb a tree.  But since I can't do either, I have to use the tools available to me which includes dropping a frame block down to hop over that fence.  I also play permadeath on most of my playthroughs so dying to "not exploit the game to throw down a frame to hop a fence" really doesn't appeal to me for the reasons stated above.

Do I place hatches in doors in POIs as I am looting them?  No I don't do that.  Do I make bases where the zombies think they have a path to me but can't because of physics?  No I always give them a path to me.  Do I think the developers should remove the option of hatches in POIs to force players from using them?  No I don't.  Just because I don't use them, does not mean that everyone else should be under the same limitation.  I like the fact that the developers are working to finish this game to their vision, but leaving it open to different ways that we the players can play it (or mod it).

And we all play the game differently.  Some use CM to get stuff early on or use easier settings while others max out the difficulty of the game via the in-game options.  Others mod the game to get the tweaks they want to when they play.  Removing a game mechanic just to "encourage players to play harder" is just one way to remove options for others.  If you don't like using frame blocks, there is nothing in the game preventing you from imposing that limit to yourself.

 

[bachgaman]

You call it an exploit, however, it is a game mechanic.  But hey I am game, I would stop placing a block down to hop over a fence while trying to get away from a pack of zombie dogs if the  game would allow me to pull myself over the fence like I can do in real life, or climb a tree.  But since I can't do either, I have to use the tools available to me which includes dropping a frame block down to hop over that fence.  I also play permadeath on most of my playthroughs so dying to "not exploit the game to throw down a frame to hop a fence" really doesn't appeal to me for the reasons stated above.

Do I place hatches in doors in POIs as I am looting them?  No I don't do that.  Do I make bases where the zombies think they have a path to me but can't because of physics?  No I always give them a path to me.  Do I think the developers should remove the option of hatches in POIs to force players from using them?  No I don't.  Just because I don't use them, does not mean that everyone else should be under the same limitation.  I like the fact that the developers are working to finish this game to their vision, but leaving it open to different ways that we the players can play it (or mod it).

And we all play the game differently.  Some use CM to get stuff early on or use easier settings while others max out the difficulty of the game via the in-game options.  Others mod the game to get the tweaks they want to when they play.  Removing a game mechanic just to "encourage players to play harder" is just one way to remove options for others.  If you don't like using frame blocks, there is nothing in the game preventing you from imposing that limit to yourself.

Great post based on a false premise. I didn't suggest to remove any game mechanics just for "encourage players to play harder". I suggested to improve the existing one. Check my first post https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/28129-alpha-21-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=505171

The debate over the limits that players should impose on themselves is endless and pointless. I believe that all these add-ons that are in your head are crutches, not a feature of the game, and the less we need them, the better for the gameplay. Your opinion is the opposite. We won't be able to reach a consensus.

 

[Roland]

We won't be able to reach a consensus.

We sure couldn’t the last time this topic came up nor the time before that nor the time before that…

 

[Javabean867]

Great post based on a false premise. I didn't suggest to remove any game mechanics just for "encourage players to play harder". I suggested to improve the existing one. Check my first post https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/28129-alpha-21-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=505171

The debate over the limits that players should impose on themselves is endless and pointless. I believe that all these add-ons that are in your head are crutches, not a feature of the game, and the less we need them, the better for the gameplay. Your opinion is the opposite. We won't be able to reach a consensus.

it sounds like a mod situation, that way you can play the way you like to.  You'd probably like the undead legacy mod, because it makes frames incredibly expensive to use.  I've been watching JaWoodle's series on it, and its been interesting.  Not interesting enough for me to play though.

Otherwise you are suggesting the modification of a feature to suit the minority of people who find that feature annoying or immersion breaking.
 

 

[Doomofman]

We sure couldn’t the last time this topic came up nor the time before that nor the time before that…

So you've come to a consensus that there's no consensus

 

[bachgaman]

it sounds like a mod situation, that way you can play the way you like to.  You'd probably like the undead legacy mod, because it makes frames incredibly expensive to use.  I've been watching JaWoodle's series on it, and its been interesting.  Not interesting enough for me to play though.

Otherwise you are suggesting the modification of a feature to suit the minority of people who find that feature annoying or immersion breaking.
 

I know about the UL mod, I love it, I consider it the best among all the mods I know. But there is no such mechanics. In UL, as in vanilla, blocks and doors are repaired instantly with one click of the mouse  And if a wall of your house collapses, you can still install a new one in a split second.

In early game with UL mod, there really is a problem with frames, but my thought is generally very loosely related to nerdpoling, or rather indirectly. The main speech is about the instant repair of doors and blocks and the instant installation of new blocks to replace those destroyed during the sieges of BM, etc.