PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[beHypE]

Is anyone finding any schematics for vehicles or already made parts ? We have been looting bookstores, post offices, mailboxes and every car shop to no avail, with 100+ lootstage in a big city in the snow biome. Not a single vehicle related item, aside from acid/wheels and batteries. We're still running our bicycles, and would be on foot if it wasn't for the reward you get when you end the tier 1 quests. It's getting to a point where I'll start investing points into Intelligence just to unlock Motorcycle recipes, it's pretty obnoxious to be fair. That's 7-8 wasted levels just to be able to craft 3 vehicles, not to mention it really takes away from the pleasure of finding the schematics, but at this rate we'll be decked out with T6 stuff in every slot before we can ride anything decent. 

 

[Jost Amman]

Is anyone finding any schematics for vehicles or already made parts ? We have been looting bookstores, post offices, mailboxes and every car shop to no avail, with 100+ lootstage in a big city in the snow biome. Not a single vehicle related item, aside from acid/wheels and batteries. We're still running our bicycles, and would be on foot if it wasn't for the reward you get when you end the tier 1 quests. It's getting to a point where I'll start investing points into Intelligence just to unlock Motorcycle recipes, it's pretty obnoxious to be fair. That's 7-8 wasted levels just to be able to craft 3 vehicles, not to mention it really takes away from the pleasure of finding the schematics, but at this rate we'll be decked out with T6 stuff in every slot before we can ride anything decent. 

Not sure about vehicles schematics, but I found that vehicle mod for off-road lights. (I'm on week 3 - 120 mins/day)

 

[bdubyah]

That off-road light schem is everywhere...

I see it so much more than almost anything else it seems. Lol.

 

[Star69]

I find a decent number of bicycle chassis and motorcycle chassis schematics, occasionally bicycle handlebars. I haven’t seen any schematics or parts for the truck or gyro in the wild but that might be gamestage related.

 

[Quantum Blue]

Is anyone finding any schematics for vehicles or already made parts ?

(In my previous run-through in which I seem to have a later stage than Start69) I very much agree with Star69 about bicycle, mb, and mc schematic frequency.  I don't remember mini-bike schematics but I have seen a couple couple 4x4 chassis schematics as well.  (in loot and once at a trader?) I hadn't used them as I had a 4x4 before finding.  I haven't seen any non-bike schematics yet in this run through - 1st A20.1B5), but I am only day 30, lvl 38, lootstage 50ish.  (but I will keep an 'eye' open.)

I am also seem to be experiencing a slight uptick in beakers and acid.  I know they were slightly increased - but with RNG...  I 'usually' might have 3 acids and no beakers by day 30, but I got a beaker about a week ago, and currently have 6 acids.  It doesn't seem like that is game breaking.  And I just haven't had/need or time to build a chemistry station in this run-through yet.

 

[Pr00ch]

The only time you're encouraged to specialize is in multiplayer and that's generally because others want to specialize in combat perks and doesn't have anything to do with anything intrinsic to the leveling system.

In single player if after your first 4 points you aren't spreading them around, you're just doing it wrong. You aren't locked into any tree nor do you have to specialize too far into any particular tree in order to survive. You can evenly distribute your points across every tree and manage just fine.  It only becomes an issue on max difficulty settings where you kind of have to spec higher into your particular weapon and even then, the first few points into other trees are cheap.

That'd be true if there were no attribute gates. Otherwise you simply can not diversify without effectively locking yourself out from content.

Some perks require 7-10 points in their respective attributes, which cost 2 points each starting with 6, and 3 points for level 9 and 10. Because of this massive overhead that the gates require, by the time you'll reach the high attributes required to unlock the perks which let you access the diverse features of the game, you will already have progressed so far that it's no longer necessary. You will reach that "endgame" state, where zombies are any longer a threat, looting any more has no added utility, you have all the food you could possibly need, etc.  All that happened really is you progressed to the endgame without even being able to access a chunk of the game. i.e. a whole lot of fun. It has just been arbitrarily locked, denied. It would have been great to use those features when you actually needed them. But at this stage, there is simply no point to it anymore. All that's left is turning off the game - you effectively finished it. 

I've been saying for ages that they should have different attribute skill trees for SP and MP.

This would solve once and for all the balancing problem we have now. Also, would solve the "Charismatic Nature" hole issue for SP.

Yeah, "charismatic nature" even being a thing in singleplayer is pretty telling, especially with how long it's been this way. It's a microcosm of everything that is wrong with the leveling system, and by extension the direction taken by whoever is in charge of designing it. 

 

[faatal]

@faatal

If you look on steam for UEBS 2, a game not out yet, one of the videos tells us that they perform AI for pathfinding for over 1 million individual on screen soldiers using the video card and would have been impossible using the CPU.  I know its comparing apples to oranges but I was wondering if this was already being done or if something like this would help in 7 days to die?

Pathing is not our bottleneck because each path is calced on a thread, so little hit on the main thread. Updating the entities, animating, colliding and rendering them is where the cost is.

 

[faatal]

Been getting this since 20.1  Can anyone tell me what is causing it?   Crashes me to desktop every time.  Sometimes I can play 2 hours then it will happen every 5 or 10 min.  Other times will start after 15 min play time.  There's also some sort of audio input error that shows up in my task bar, but I didn't get a screenshot.  When I log back in I'm about 45 seconds behind where I crashed.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

View attachment 23071

It is probably Unity graphics jobs. I enabled them a few weeks ago, since that is now the default for Unity projects and they are supposed to improve performance. Two testers started having random crashes and they have reports of others crashing. I disabled it today, which will be in next exp. When we get our new consultant from Unity, that will be one of his initial tasks of why Unity is doing that. We will give it another shot once we switch a21 to 2021 LTS.

 

[Neminsis]

That'd be true if there were no attribute gates. Otherwise you simply can not diversify without effectively locking yourself out from content.

Some perks require 7-10 points in their respective attributes, which cost 2 points each starting with 6, and 3 points for level 9 and 10. Because of this massive overhead that the gates require, by the time you'll reach the high attributes required to unlock the perks which let you access the diverse features of the game, you will already have progressed so far that it's no longer necessary. You will reach that "endgame" state, where zombies are any longer a threat, looting any more has no added utility, you have all the food you could possibly need, etc.  All that happened really is you progressed to the endgame without even being able to access a chunk of the game. i.e. a whole lot of fun. It has just been arbitrarily locked, denied. It would have been great to use those features when you actually needed them. But at this stage, there is simply no point to it anymore. All that's left is turning off the game - you effectively finished it. 

Yeah, "charismatic nature" even being a thing in singleplayer is pretty telling, especially with how long it's been this way. It's a microcosm of everything that is wrong with the leveling system, and by extension the direction taken by whoever is in charge of designing it. 

Zombies are no longer a threat by day 7 and I reach "all the food I could ever need" by week 3 but generally play well past day 300 and I hit max level around day 200 and have every perk complete by day 175. I don't think our definition of "end game" is the same. 

To max out an attribute takes 16 points, 13 if you use cigar, goggles, or glasses. It only takes 39 points to completely max out all the perks under that attribute. Those 52 points are as strong as that tree will ever get and it's sufficient to day 300 on maximum difficulty, so it stands to reason that you don't even need to take it that high if you're going to call it end game by day 75 where you can completely max out 2 trees, right? 

That's what you do if you want every perk, otherwise you make different choices on each playthrough and try out different build orders and combinations.  If you want everything then you actually have to earn it. The Zs do keep scaling well past day 50 btw.
 

 

[Jost Amman]

Those 52 points are as strong as that tree will ever get and it's sufficient to day 300 on maximum difficulty, so it stands to reason that you don't even need to take it that high if you're going to call it end game by day 75 where you can completely max out 2 trees, right? 

You didn't consider game settings... I play at 120 mins/day, and I assure you, you can do a lot more stuff and get up game stage, loot stage and skills much more for the same number of days. I don't know if that's the setting Pr00ch is using, but is worth considering.

 

[Yakov]

It is probably Unity graphics jobs. I enabled them a few weeks ago, since that is now the default for Unity projects and they are supposed to improve performance. Two testers started having random crashes and they have reports of others crashing. I disabled it today, which will be in next exp. When we get our new consultant from Unity, that will be one of his initial tasks of why Unity is doing that. We will give it another shot once we switch a21 to 2021 LTS.

Unusual for that to be a cause of crashes. Havent heard anyone reporting that when i put it on the mod sites. (about 10k downloads so far)

Tarkov & Rust both utilize it so i wonder why its happening for 7D.

 

[pregnable]

Is the bug where zombies glitch into the ground a known bug that is being worked on? 

I just died in my one world because of it. 

Hit the horde with a pipe bomb, they got up and a lumberjack came at me as if my walls did not exist, heh. 

Guessing he glitched through the ground and then jumped up though my floor, like I have seen them do... but this one did both instantly and caught me off guard. 

 

[Jost Amman]

Unusual for that to be a cause of crashes. Havent heard anyone reporting that when i put it on the mod sites. (about 10k downloads so far)

Tarkov & Rust both utilize it so i wonder why its happening for 7D.

Yeah, it's probably the same bad, bad programmers from TFP fault.  :classic_wink:

Is the bug where zombies glitch into the ground a known bug that is being worked on? 

I just died in my one world because of it. 

Hit the horde with a pipe bomb, they got up and a lumberjack came at me as if my walls did not exist, heh. 

Guessing he glitched through the ground and then jumped up though my floor, like I have seen them do... but this one did both instantly and caught me off guard. 

It's all connected with the mother of all bugs (it's the origin bug, which faatal already explained some time ago).

He said in A20.1 is better but can still happen. So, objects and entities can sometimes be displaced abruptly.

 

[Neminsis]

You didn't consider game settings... I play at 120 mins/day, and I assure you, you can do a lot more stuff and get up game stage, loot stage and skills much more for the same number of days. I don't know if that's the setting Pr00ch is using, but is worth considering.

I generally play long games on 120 minute days and default to Warrior, but I also play shorter games on shorter days and higher difficulties. I only used "days" as measure because it was convenient. Perhaps it would've been better to use levels 50,100, 200, 300 as more appropriate milestones, but the point remains that it's completely up to the player when a game ends, or at what point the level gates become too expensive. 

Sure, if you're only playing to level 50 then you're only going to have enough points to max out 1 tree, or 2 trees with the perks about halfway, but by level 100 that's 2 trees maxed, or 1 tree maxed and 2 others with the perks halfway, or you could do 4 trees about halfway, and that's not even considering the fact that you won't likely be spending points on multiple melee perks or unused perks like Charismatic Nature, Well Insulated, Pack Mule, Physician, The Huntsman, Lucky Looter and Demolitions Expert...

So, with that in mind let's take a look at the probably most common build and see what it actually looks like on level 50, shotgun and clubs. If you're using a cigar it's 13 points to max out the strength attribute. Skipping Skull Crusher and Pack Mule but maxing everything else, for a total of 46 points spent, you end up with an extra 4 points to spend on level 1 of let's say, Pain Tolerance, Rule 1: Cardio, Run and Gun, Flurry of Blows. At this point you're probably feeling a bit OP but suffering from some tree envy and maybe want to try out other weapons and perks.

The obvious solutions would be to either keep leveling or pony up for that Grandpa's Fergit'n Elixer and respec, but what you really want is to try out all of the things all at once, and well, that requires a level of about 260...

I mean you could just go into debug mode, giveselfexp 41060282, then settime 200 4 00, Turn on creative mode and spawn in all the Q6 armor, weapons and mods that you can imagine looting by day 200, and then take a run at a couple of tier 5's to get a feel for things, but it's just so much easier to go to the forums and complain that level gates are too hard.

[eye twitches]

 

[Star69]

Is the bug where zombies glitch into the ground a known bug that is being worked on? 

I just died in my one world because of it. 

Hit the horde with a pipe bomb, they got up and a lumberjack came at me as if my walls did not exist, heh. 

Guessing he glitched through the ground and then jumped up though my floor, like I have seen them do... but this one did both instantly and caught me off guard. 

I think that’s part of the the ray tracing bug that Fatal is working on where vehicles, turrets and zombies fall through the ground but that’s just a guess. His fix for it in A20.1 seems to have fixed the zombies but some people are still seeing issues with turrets and vehicles. Things are definitely better, that’s for sure. It was kind of funny fighting zombies wading waist-deep in blocks. Hindsight, I should have taken a video.

 

[Naz]

It is probably Unity graphics jobs. I enabled them a few weeks ago, since that is now the default for Unity projects and they are supposed to improve performance. Two testers started having random crashes and they have reports of others crashing. I disabled it today, which will be in next exp. When we get our new consultant from Unity, that will be one of his initial tasks of why Unity is doing that. We will give it another shot once we switch a21 to 2021 LTS.

Probably something you've already verified, but just in case. Is it certain gpu jobs is the root of the problem and the crashes aren't symptoms of the performance increase gpu jobs provides? GPU jobs increases performance and thus more heavily loads the gpu. Prior to a20.1 low gpu utilization is fairly common and underlying issues with the hardware won't present themselves as often under lights loads. With a20.1 enabled gpu jobs increasing load on users gpus could create conditions that expose underlying hardware problems like, old thermal paste, defective thermal paste, gpu fan faults, unstable OC Settings, Dust clogged fin stacks, inadequate airflow ect. All those issues could result in the game crashing in a20.1 and not a20.0.

I've been doing some benchmarking on a20.1 and enabled gpu jobs makes a substantial difference in general performance. It doesn't help all that much in 0.1% lows, so doesn't treat the root performance issues of a20, but it does a good job of ban aiding it until the bottlenecks can be looked into and optimised.
I've not finished compiling all the data but here's an excerpt of a20.0 vs a20.1 1080p ultra settings
 

Spoiler

It was great gpu jobs was now being included as stock. It's seems like it would be a step backwards in performance to disable it, especially now since a20.0 in the city's is already borderline unplayable with the frequent and unrelenting stutters. Don't get me wrong if it is actually the cause of the crashes obviously it's better to play with reduced performance over having random crashes. But personally i wouldn't disable a performance feature like this without verifying the crashes weren't caused by something simpler first.
 

I'm very aware 1 system and 1 users experience doesn't reflect every possibility, but for what it's worth i haven't had a single unexplained crash playing and testing a20.1

 

[Guppycur]

It's all connected with the mother of all bugs (it's the origin bug, which faatal already explained some time ago).

He said in A20.1 is better but can still happen. So, objects and entities can sometimes be displaced abruptly.

Yeh I was running and during an origin shift (log entry) I started to fall through and was stuck for a second; didn't report it because m word but the timing was exactly when the shift happened.  

 

[Jost Amman]

or unused perks like Charismatic Nature, Well Insulated, Pack Mule, Physician, The Huntsman, Lucky Looter and Demolitions Expert...

Whoa! Hang on for a moment there!

You're making a lot of assumptions... in my current SP/120 mins-day/Warrior game I'm using at least 2 of those skills and I find them pretty useful.

The obvious solutions would be to either keep leveling or pony up for that Grandpa's Fergit'n Elixer and respec, but what you really want is to try out all of the things all at once, and well, that requires a level of about 260...

More in general, I think the main problem with your approach is that you assume that the "end-game" is something related only to leveling/skills and power.

From my perspective, the end-game can also be any of the following:

• Exploring most of the map (find all traders, all cities/towns, experience all biomes)
  
• Building BM/Crafting bases in all Biomes and have a BM at least once in each of them
  
• Build the "perfect BM base" so that not even Dems can create problems anymore
  
• Complete all books that give you perks!
  
• Complete the mission tiers from each trader (when you reach T5 and do it you've completed that trader)
  
• Restore a small town to its former glory  (kind of like "House Flipper")
  

These are just a few examples of how different people could consider end-game, instead of saying "I have everything, I can kill any zombie, I'm done".

Serious question: are you a min/maxer?  :suspicious:

 

[Neminsis]

Whoa! Hang on for a moment there!

You're making a lot of assumptions... in my current SP/120 mins-day/Warrior game I'm using at least 2 of those skills and I find them pretty useful.

More in general, I think the main problem with your approach is that you assume that the "end-game" is something related only to leveling/skills and power.

From my perspective, the end-game can also be any of the following:

• Exploring most of the map (find all traders, all cities/towns, experience all biomes)
  
• Building BM/Crafting bases in all Biomes and have a BM at least once in each of them
  
• Build the "perfect BM base" so that not even Dems can create problems anymore
  
• Complete all books that give you perks!
  
• Complete the mission tiers from each trader (when you reach T5 and do it you've completed that trader)
  
• Restore a small town to its former glory  (kind of like "House Flipper")
  

These are just a few examples of how different people could consider end-game, instead of saying "I have everything, I can kill any zombie, I'm done".

Serious question: are you a min/maxer?  :suspicious:

When the topic is "level gating is bad" one is kind of forced into taking "level" and "gating" into account, right?

But yes, I'm well aware of the use cases for those "ignored perks" and maybe Charismatic Nature ought to maybe give a stamina regen buff in single player, as most leaders tend to get a little high off their own fumes, so to speak. 

As I said, 'my' end game is typically well past level 300, so I have used everything you've listed as in-game goals, but as I also said, I've done shorter playthroughs to experiment with the early game and build orders. I put over 4k hours into a19 alone, and probably half that on each alpha going back to a15, and another 500 into a20 so far, so maybe my perspective is a little different than the average player, I can't help that.

Although, I have done the math I'm not really a min/maxer as I tend to play reactively to the situation i.e. putting points into what I need at the time rather than sticking to a script. Those decisions are always informed by the knowledge that I can always just level up more if I need something else later though. 

And the thing about playing longer games and leveling higher is that you find out sooner or later that the Zs keep scaling for a long time and that OP feeling that you can get early game is more of an illusion than a reality. That maxed out tree by level 50 just doesn't perform the same against the Zs that spawn at higher game stages, yeah?

 

[Jost Amman]

When the topic is "level gating is bad" one is kind of forced into taking "level" and "gating" into account, right?

I wasn't referring to that, since you both started talking about "end game" I jumped in to say that what you both call end game isn't based on levels for everyone.

As I said, 'my' end game is typically well past level 300, so I have used everything you've listed as in-game goals

Good for you! Hope you had fun!  :biggrin1:

I put over 4k hours into a19 alone, and probably half that on each alpha going back to a15, and another 500 into a20 so far, so maybe my perspective is a little different than the average player, I can't help that.

You're definitely not the kind of player I'd balance the game around if I were in The Fun Pimp's shoes!  :hail: