PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Red Eagle LXIX]

I'm still curious if not lowering the HP of bars was a mistake or intended.

To me seeing bars with full hitpoints sitting on a thicker plate that has fewer hitpoints just screams "You must gun and fight this way.  You shall not face the horde another way".   Ah well, back to the basic full blocks square with bar wings off the side to shoot from.  Not even as nice as the little one built in the Dev Streams.

 

[Neminsis]

You spit sentences, but you don't even know what you're talking about.

I've got bars all around my fighting area, so cops can see me, BTW.

And please, stop assuming I'm lying on why I use pole as columns.

As I said, it won't change a thing to switch from poles to full blocks... it's just MUCH uglier.

Anyway, I stayed my case and I only care for TFP to read it, they'll make of it whatever they like.

I don't need entitled kids to teach me how to build bases.

If you've got bars all around your fighting area that means that the 2 thick walls are somewhere else then, right? 

I'm not assuming that you're lying, as long as you've been playing it's more likely that you don't even think about the original reason you started doing things a particular way. I'm just saying that it's not really going to have much of practical effect on your builds at all.

It's funny that you 'assume' that I'm an "entitled kid" because I disagree with you when I'm actually on the far side of the other end of that spectrum. I realize that I'm "new" to speaking on this particular forum and don't have 1k plus posts under my belt. but that doesn't mean my opinion isn't informed by the actual game mechanics, that I'm inherently wrong, or that I'm less "entitled" than you to voice said opinion. 

But if you would like some tips on building bases I'd be glad to help. I can even point you to a few videos if you'd like.

 

[Neminsis]

I'm still curious if not lowering the HP of bars was a mistake or intended.

To me seeing bars with full hitpoints sitting on a thicker plate that has fewer hitpoints just screams "You must gun and fight this way.  You shall not face the horde another way".   Ah well, back to the basic full blocks square with bar wings off the side to shoot from.  Not even as nice as the little one built in the Dev Streams.

Plates can be doubled up, and because the lower plates will be hit much less frequently than the second block up their effective hps are still higher. The Z's are going to focus that second block up and attempt to go over the lower block. 

 

[meganoth]

how to play?
Restarting doesn't help
 

Failed setting triangles. Some indices are referencing out of bounds vertices. IndexCount: 3441, VertexCount: 668

[Physics.PhysX] TriangleMesh::loadFromDesc: desc.isValid() failed!

Failed setting triangles. Some indices are referencing out of bounds vertices. IndexCount: 3441, VertexCount: 668

Failed setting triangles. Some indices are referencing out of bounds vertices. IndexCount: 3441, VertexCount: 668

[Physics.PhysX] TriangleMesh::loadFromDesc: desc.isValid() failed!

If you want help post your problem in the "General Support" section. Follow the advice in the pinned thread on how to report an issue.

 

[meganoth]

Plates can be doubled up, and because the lower plates will be hit much less frequently than the second block up their effective hps are still higher. The Z's are going to focus that second block up and attempt to go over the lower block. 

Bars can be doubled up as well, taking up exactly the same space as doubled up plates.

 

[spacepiggio]

I propose a name change for the "Dead Rooster" to the "Little Dead Rooster" in memory of Charlie Watts, rock on Mole Man...

 

[Neminsis]

Bars can be doubled up as well, taking up exactly the same space as doubled up plates.

And still the Z behavior means that the second block up will take more hits than the lower one and the effective hps of the lower block will still be higher.

 

[meganoth]

Fixed that for you.

Phrasing is everything. Loot in alpha 19 wasn't "healthy", it was broken. Now it isn't because people complained and the developers tweaked it. If no one cared when something is broken, then the devs wouldn't fix it and it would stay broken. Rants are necessary, cause they're feedback too.

Very true, complaining is necessary. But rants are not. Rants are only necessary if there is a shouting match going on where nobody is listening to reason anymore.

Loot was changed from A19 because people had given valid reasons for their dislike beside some people ranting. Other things like digging zombies were not changed even though people posted rants about it.

Maybe you equate complaints with rants, I see a difference there.

I can't speak for the farming/block health changes because I haven't had my experience with them yet, but if they are as broken as loot in A19 was, then the rants are justified and they're up for some tweaking as well.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

I just reverted all the shapes back to before the nerf.

yes there's a mod that does that, but, a 2 min in an editor and it's back the way it was.

I liked the plates as a fence (from the old bombshelter_lg_01),  then later on, add full block walls.

If there's a change I don't like, and I can change/modify it to where I like it, I CAN do it. (and will)

TFP have given us that ability. Mostly. 

(digging zombies, no. hate them.    :deadhorse:   )

Now, about that crouching jump animation...

There is something just WRONG with having one of the fat zeds do the crouch and TRY to leap.

(they're too fat and just sorta lurch at you and nibble your ankles)

Big Momma... leaping.... no. just no.

 

[meganoth]

And still the Z behavior means that the second block up will take more hits than the lower one and the effective hps of the lower block will still be higher.

Once the upper block is destroyed and zombies hit on the lower block that distinction is strictly academic to the soon-to-be-dead survivor.

Both blocks being bars is obviously more sturdy than bar+plate. Red Eagle surely posted that picture just for comparison of the two types

I just reverted all the shapes back to before the nerf.

yes there's a mod that does that, but, a 2 min in an editor and it's back the way it was.

I liked the plates as a fence (from the old bombshelter_lg_01),  then later on, add full block walls.

If there's a change I don't like, and I can change/modify it to where I like it, I CAN do it. (and will)

TFP have given us that ability. Mostly. 

(digging zombies, no. hate them.    :deadhorse:   )

Now, about that crouching jump animation...

There is something just WRONG with having one of the fat zeds do the crouch and TRY to leap.

(they're too fat and just sorta lurch at you and nibble your ankles)

Big Momma... leaping.... no. just no.

This is called "fan service"

 

[Jost Amman]

If you've got bars all around your fighting area that means that the 2 thick walls are somewhere else then, right? 

Look, I'm done talking with you, I don't know where did you get these 2 thick walls from, and you don't know how my base is (I posted a picture before though). You just went with something, got it all wrong, and started giving advice on wrong assumptions. Anyway, just a waste of time for both you and me.

 

[Neminsis]

Once the upper block is destroyed and zombies hit on the lower block that distinction is strictly academic to the soon-to-be-dead survivor.

Both blocks being bars is obviously more sturdy than bar+plate. Red Eagle surely posted that picture just for comparison of the two types

Once the upper block is destroyed they attempt to path over it first, and the lower blocks are still hit less frequently, and if they were to focus the lower block the upper block is then easier to replace. Which the survivor should be already prepared to do since the blocks no longer downgrade. 

If he'd posted with bars in both the upper and lower positions then my answer would've been the same even though they had exactly the same hps.

I don't know what his reasons for posting the comparison, but from my perspective he posted a problem and I posted a solution.

 

[Red Eagle LXIX]

Plates can be doubled up, and because the lower plates will be hit much less frequently than the second block up their effective hps are still higher. The Z's are going to focus that second block up and attempt to go over the lower block. 

So I can double the bars too.

And still the Z behavior means that the second block up will take more hits than the lower one and the effective hps of the lower block will still be higher.

I could put the bars on the ground and get more strength than the plates.  I am not sure what your point is here.  Meanwhile the bars are still thinner than the plates they would replace. 

Your argument that the bars should be stronger because they are more where the zombies hit more often (if that is your point) supports the idea that only certain playstyles should be allowed.

Both blocks being bars is obviously more sturdy than bar+plate. Red Eagle surely posted that picture just for comparison of the two types

Exactly, I was showing that it made no sense a thinner block was stronger than a thicker one.  Bars are thinner by a small amount at their thickest points and significantly thinner at the bars themselves.

 

[gpcstargate]

lol...That change to LOTL 2 was planned even before experimental dropped but there was not time to implement it. It was not added because of some complaining. It was added to the very first patch that was available after experimental released.  Nice try though.

So now there is a bigger chance that they will break through but has anyone tested it on a horde night? Did they die? Did they have to alternate between melee and repair? I just wonder exactly how bad it is now. If zombies never had even a chance of breaking through before but now there is a chance but it can still be managed by effective horde night management-- it might turn out to be a more thrilling affair.

Or it may turn out to be a disaster. Are there any videos that can be linked? I'd like to see a horde night where the zombies possibly break through where before they never ever did.

I get the upset over the poles for melee defense on horde night. How do the plates destroy your building plans exactly? What were you using them for where 10000 hp were a must and 5000 hp are game killing?

I use plates as a support for floating base designs ... along with pipe.  First picture is the older style and the second picture is the Newer style using current parts in game and a much nicer and cleaner look to it with the catwalks.

Also That's a lot of steel that just went to waste and many hours of game time.

 

[Mechanimal]

Boy oh boy, talk about opening Pandoras Box with this block change.

Shame cause the launch of A20 was so smooth, aside from maybe the farming change(I can farm just fine, so twas worry over nothing imho).  Nearly everyone, including myself, seemed so excited... for like a week. Now no one knows what is going to happen by the time this issue settles back down and gets finalized. Wish we at least got more time with it before it got so obfuscated and unhinged all of a sudden. This could honestly turn into a never ending series of adjustments over what block has what HP, and costs what, gives x amount of HP, etc and so on. How are you going to let players know those stats in the menu? Will block menus now have tiers/sorting for block strength? Jfc you pulled off making a menu of nearly 1400 shapes not seem overwhelming or confusing, it was great,... and then this, trainwrecked it.

The change just causes a TON of turbulence when things were smooth, exciting even, like a new toolbox opened up... aaand was suddenly shut.

Like, this change should have been hashed out behind the scenes, first, even for an alpha, imho. Releasing it in the state it was, which I saw no one, no one, complain about, and then pulling this move a mere week into the alpha, which has tons of players now in base-building limbo, is a weird af decision. Any dev input on this(it's been mainly us so far) would be greatly appreciated. Like, xplain to me, please, why you do dis?

 

[Neminsis]

Look, I'm done talking with you, I don't know where did you get these 2 thick walls from, and you don't know how my base is (I posted a picture before though). You just went with something, got it all wrong, and started giving advice on wrong assumptions. Anyway, just a waste of time for both you and me.

The use of "inside" blocks and "outside" blocks in your precious post implies two layers of walls. I do apologize if I misunderstood. I obviously haven't seen your particular base, but another solution would be to add sheets to the outside of the half blocks bring their effective hps up. Sure, this creates the argument that you now have a higher resource cost for the same layout, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to change your layout.

Shame that you're so easily done with me since I've enjoyed this discussion so far.

 

[MechanicalLens]

Boy oh boy, talk about opening Pandoras Box with this block change.

Shame cause the launch of A20 was so smooth, aside from maybe the farming change(I can farm just fine, so twas worry over nothing imho).  Nearly everyone, including myself, seemed so excited... for like a week. Now no one knows what is going to happen by the time this issue settles back down and gets finalized. Wish we at least got more time with it before it got so obfuscated and unhinged all of a sudden. This could honestly turn into a never ending series of adjustments over what block has what HP, and costs what, gives x amount of HP, etc and so on. How are you going to let players know those stats in the menu? Will block menus now have tiers/sorting for block strength? Jfc you pulled off making a menu of nearly 1400 shapes not seem overwhelming or confusing, it was great,... and then this, trainwrecked it.

The change just causes a TON of turbulence when things were smooth, exciting even, like a new toolbox opened up... aaand was suddenly shut.

Like, this change should have been hashed out behind the scenes, first, even for an alpha, imho. Releasing it in the state it was, which I saw no one, no one, complain about, and then pulling this move a mere week into the alpha, which has tons of players now in base-building limbo, is a weird af decision. Any dev input on this(it's been mainly us so far) would be greatly appreciated. Like, xplain to me, please, why you do dis?

I've personally seen tremendous support for this change from the community, but maybe that's just my experience. The top two arguments I'm seeing is that this is great for immersion and that this change should have been made years ago, while others praise this as the final nail in the coffin for melee and cheese bases alike.

Note: I'm personally not a fan of the change myself. But I doubt TFP will revert it. Tinker with it, absolutely. Balance it, if need be, absolutely. But now, it is what it is, unless you mod the changes out.

 

[meganoth]

...
Like, this change should have been hashed out behind the scenes tested in experimental first, even for an alpha, imho. Releasing it in the state it was, which I saw no one, no one, complain about, and then pulling this move a mere week into the alpha, which has tons of players now in base-building limbo, is a weird af decision. Any dev input on this(it's been all us so far) would be greatly appreciated. Like, xplain to me, please, why you do dis?

There, corrected it for you.

My adivce; Play stable.

 

[Neminsis]

So I can double the bars too.

I could put the bars on the ground and get more strength than the plates.  I am not sure what your point is here.  Meanwhile the bars are still thinner than the plates they would replace. 

Your argument that the bars should be stronger because they are more where the zombies hit more often (if that is your point) supports the idea that only certain playstyles should be allowed.

Exactly, I was showing that it made no sense a thinner block was stronger than a thicker one.  Bars are thinner by a small amount at their thickest points and significantly thinner at the bars themselves.

I'm literally saying that this change isn't going to really be as consequential in this actual use/case that it's going to make a particular playstyle untenable.  The total hps of any particular block isn't the only mechanic in play, and in this case not even the most important one. 

I do agree that it doesn't make sense that the bars have higher hps than the plates, but are you really asking that the bars should likewise be lowered? 

 

[Red Eagle LXIX]

I'm literally saying that this change isn't going to really be as consequential in this actual use/case that it's going to make a particular playstyle untenable.  The total hps of any particular block isn't the only mechanic in play, and in this case not even the most important one. 

I do agree that it doesn't make sense that the bars have higher hps than the plates, but are you really asking that the bars should likewise be lowered? 

Yes, it would only make sense for bars to be lowered under this system.  They should have less HP than the thicker solid plate they are sitting upon.

That is why I even said:

Were bars missed in having HP reduced or was that purposeful?  They are thinner than plate.

Then followed with this post that had screenshots showing the difference in both HP and thickness.

I'm still curious if not lowering the HP of bars was a mistake or intended.