PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Roland]

This once again reeks of "how dare they play differently then me, let's make it impossible for them to continueto to do so" 

I think we should experiment a bit before declaring bases impossible. We have heard that wail of despair after almost every alpha release and within a month people are building bases that are impervious to zombies. People were building bases that NEVER got breached before and now people are worried that with the lower HP on certain blocks their bases might get breached. 

But I bet creative people will figure things out.

Maybe all horde bases will be blocky and gross at first but then some people will start innovating and before long the shapes will be used and bases will be sexy and they will withstand the onslaught and everyone who said TFP just made things impossible again will feel foolish.

 

[dcsobral]

Basically our cheat bases are compromised. That means the main objective of the change was balance. Now, full blocks are encouraged in order to not exploit entities that can actually go through 1 meter holes, like dogs, wolves and spiders. Before, you could just put a tiny pole on the side and they couldn't jump. Now you still can, but it has less hp, so it's a good trade off.

And, ironically, the change also promotes realism. No way that a tiny stick pole is stronger than a full block pillar. Yeah, materials are the same, but it's a game and complexity in this case is a headache.

Poles have been the most common zombie-facing wall since alpha 16 because it allows melee while preventing zombies from moving forward. Now, if you think that a base that needs to be protected by melee is a cheat base, then we clearly have very different definitions of cheat bases. I presume a non-cheat base for you is one where one sits on top of a platform and rain gunfire on zombies that can't reach you, then?

 

[Roland]

Then why are you whining?

Speaking of whining, I remember one of the local people who argued that whining on this forum never leads to anything. Now recall that 90% of A20 complaints were related to the new farm, which, by the way, is positive, even without LOTL (for those who are friends with school mathematics). And what do we see

LOL

So go on to tell how the decrease of durability of blocks hinders to receive aesthetic pleasure, and not to cheat the game (I believe). Maybe the change will be canceled if there are ten more offended cheaters

lol...That change to LOTL 2 was planned even before experimental dropped but there was not time to implement it. It was not added because of some complaining. It was added to the very first patch that was available after experimental released.  Nice try though.

Poles have been the most common zombie-facing wall since alpha 16 because it allows melee while preventing zombies from moving forward. Now, if you think that a base that needs to be protected by melee is a cheat base, then we clearly have very different definitions of cheat bases. I presume a non-cheat base for you is one where one sits on top of a platform and rain gunfire on zombies that can't reach you, then?

So now there is a bigger chance that they will break through but has anyone tested it on a horde night? Did they die? Did they have to alternate between melee and repair? I just wonder exactly how bad it is now. If zombies never had even a chance of breaking through before but now there is a chance but it can still be managed by effective horde night management-- it might turn out to be a more thrilling affair.

Or it may turn out to be a disaster. Are there any videos that can be linked? I'd like to see a horde night where the zombies possibly break through where before they never ever did.

WELL .. That Sucks big Time ... Steel Plates only have a 5000 hit point compared to the 10000 that steel normally does.

You just killed the Game for a lot of builders, thanks alot

I get the upset over the poles for melee defense on horde night. How do the plates destroy your building plans exactly? What were you using them for where 10000 hp were a must and 5000 hp are game killing?

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Not to mention that I believe Steel is 7000HP anyway.

 

[dcsobral]

I believe it's LOS, but we do give off a scent trail since A18 from what I remember. So we can still be tracked through blocks albeit lightly

It can't be LoS because these zombies are usually inside a closet, so they wouldn't be able to see the player to begin with. Also, the scent system was removed in alpha 19, iirc.

 

[pregnable]

As a new player I found it inconsistent with my expectations when I discovered that poles and posts had the same HP as full on 1 meter cubes.  My expectations were based on, you know, reality and I found it immersion breaking.  I thought it was just lazy programming I excused it because the game is in Alpha.  No way in hell I would accept that from a finished product game unless it only cost like $9.99. Its just dumb. 

As far as costing less materials, that totally makes sense and would be a nice (although not necessary) adjustment. By the time I am getting fancy with my bases I am not micro managing my materials like that since they are more than abundant. I much rather TFP spend their time on making crafting viable.

To you all the are complaining about the materials cost not being adjusted down to match the HP, your level of butt hurt 7wood, 7cobblestone, 7......  really makes me question the sincerity of your argument.  It seems like there is something else you are not saying and it makes it difficult for me to recieve your opinion with the gravity I hope it deserves.

I haven't been able to get in the forums in awhile so...

The blocks need some way to be able to see what their health is for newer players.  If the block health is relative to the amount of space in the voxel they fill, that would probably be fine, because most newer players would assume that and figure it out pretty quick. 

It is highly unlikely that they are going to put that much work into it though, and then the costs would still need to reflect the amount of health they give. 

This has nothing to do with me exploiting or using them... I do not think they messed with my melee horde base at all, but it is very inconsistent for a voxel game and has really just made a bunch of shapes inferior. 

I usually just run around without a base on horde night anyway.

The funny thing about this change is that there are now some new huge OP blocks that only cost a normal amount to upgrade, lel. 

 

[RBN]

So the builder heaven of all shapes lasted only a week.

The shapes menu was great, finally we have access to every kind of block to build cool bases and you destroy it with this decision..

Lets be honest....who will use a inferior kind of block that cost the same that a full block?

So back to ugly and boring square bases.

 

[SnowDog1942]

I think we should experiment a bit before declaring bases impossible.

Im not a big builder type guy here so not much skin in the game.   That being said it is pretty stupid to nerf some blocks HP without making them take less mats to build/upgrade or even know how much HP they have before you build it.  My blocky bases will be just as happy as ever but that doesn't make this any less dumb.

 

[dcsobral]

Any reason models in game deform when dead ?

View attachment 22009

They ragdoll.

STEEL is STEEL ... block vs plate, it is made the same way and at the same cost. 

Their changing the Basic material mid stream ... and as a builder, I'm not happy about this one change.

And its been this way since A-18.1 for the most part.

Actually, it is NOT midstream. It's experimental. Experimental means subject to change at any time. If you want to not be subject to changes at any time, they have something else: the "stable".

 

[Roland]

Im not a big builder type guy here so not much skin in the game.   That being said it is pretty stupid to nerf some blocks HP without making them take less mats to build/upgrade or even know how much HP they have before you build it.  My blocky bases will be just as happy as ever but that doesn't make this any less dumb.

I guess. Blocks are so cheap now in general. I’m understanding of disappointment over the change. Just a bit disbelieving of the phrase “TFP has made my base impossible!”

 

[dcsobral]

After a little testing, it seems like this is an overall a buff to poles and plates, but I'd need to test a little more extensively.  Zombies used to almost always do 6x damage to poles and plates thinking they were stuck.  It seems like they aren't doing that anymore, but I only tested them for a few minutes. 

If they removed the 6x damage, then that's cool!

So now there is a bigger chance that they will break through but has anyone tested it on a horde night? Did they die? Did they have to alternate between melee and repair? I just wonder exactly how bad it is now. If zombies never had even a chance of breaking through before but now there is a chance but it can still be managed by effective horde night management-- it might turn out to be a more thrilling affair.

Or it may turn out to be a disaster. Are there any videos that can be linked? I'd like to see a horde night where the zombies possibly break through where before they never ever did.

Actually, yes! Kage tested it on today's video (linked below), and he DID die. Well, he died on the previous video, before horde night, but you didn't specify when. But he had to almost immediately fall back to his hatches which have not been nerfed and, by the shape logic, should have been.

 

[hiemfire]

If they removed the 6x damage, then that's cool!

They didn't:

 

[pregnable]

I guess. Blocks are so cheap now. I’m understanding of disappointment over the change. Just a bit disbelieving if the phrase “TFP has made my base impossible!”

I have no problem with you guys experimenting with it, but I think you are going to find you are just confusing people and making certain shapes undesirable. 

I can picture your average player, that does not invest a large amount of time playing a single game, maybe having fun building with a friend, getting super confused when they start seeing the hps of blocks when they need to repair. 

Then maybe they start seeing that some steel has the same hps as concrete and getting annoyed with their choices in life and decide to make Amish soap.  This would directly affect my Amish soap business, and I am not happy about it!!!

 

[RBN]

I guess. Blocks are so cheap now in general. I’m understanding of disappointment over the change. Just a bit disbelieving of the phrase “TFP has made my base impossible!”

I used the plates for exterior walls in my base because it lets more space to walk when you put bars around. Now any random cop in a random horde that vomit at this walls will break it easily, compromising the chest that are stuck at them.

I used the poles as support pilars to builg plates cages. They fit the gape that the plates left between them when you make a square..

I used the 1/2 blocks to elevates the dogs to makes posible to melee.

And i can continue with "legit" uses of this shapes that now are obslote because any zombie sneeze can destroy it.

They didn't:

So is even worst. Nor only have less hp and cost the same additionally they have a penalty of 6x damage.

If they doesn't like that shapes they can remove them. It will be more elegant

 

[Khalagar]

Actually, yes! Kage tested it on today's video (linked below), and he DID die. Well, he died on the previous video, before horde night, but you didn't specify when. But he had to almost immediately fall back to his hatches which have not been nerfed and, by the shape logic, should have been.

I mean, why would like 20 cobble worth of material hold out that many zombies for the entire horde night without repair lol. From a balance standpoint that cobble pole *still* lasted a really long time against like 20+ zombies. And half the issues he was having was he couldn't aim  and then shot the cobble pole himself with his shotgun which does a ton of block damage

I don't think it's that unreasonable that you would need to have something a bit less cheesy than literally 20 cobble to stop an entire horde all night, especially with the traders now giving you five hundred free cobblestone / cement blocks that you can instantly place down without any material cost investment at all. Besides that, I thought you guys were arguing that the reason people were upset wasn't because of melee cheese bases? That pole he was using was nothing to do with aesthetics and purely to do with melee cheese lol

I dunno, horde night is supposed to be scary. If you want to build an aesthetic castle then by all means do it, but do it with the knowledge that a few decorative blocks might get broken if you fight the horde night in it. If you are trying to build an actually efficient horde base then just build it in your back yard or across town or wherever you want, and you can still live in your castle or wooden house or w/e

You still can build OP AF cheese bases if you want anyway, the one Kage shown doesn't even look efficient. All you have to do is build a couple of stairs with junk sledges where the zombies take forever to jump up and get yeeted, and have an area where you can throw explosives at the zombies. His base would have held out 100% okay if he'd had a one or two block stair case leading to the tunnel entrance where they had to jump to land on the block the sledge targetted, before jumping one last time to enter his tunnel. The cobble half blocks would have held out fine against the few zombies that managed to make it past the sledge.

 

[RBN]

A plant is a decorative object, a sofa is a decorative object....

A plate and a pole are building blocks. It can be used to more things that defense blocks, and this build uses are compromised now.

And there's nothing "cheesy" in melee a day 100 horde and use a block that allow you to reach the zombie.

In fact is more dangerous do that instead of a square block because pole already have a penalty and you didn't hear me complain about it. I use them because are convenient to my game play..

In my style the cheesy thing is using guns, explosives and tons of ammo from a save long distance but i'm an adult and i doesn't care about what others people do to have fun.

This change is simply dumb.

 

[Roland]

especially with the traders now giving you five hundred free cobblestone / cement blocks that you can instantly place down without any material cost investment at all.

Well here’s the answer to all of you who are fine with the HP reduction but angry for the cost. Just earmark all the free blocks you get as poles and plates and your problem is solved. 

 

[Darklegend222]

lol...That change to LOTL 2 was planned even before experimental dropped but there was not time to implement it. It was not added because of some complaining. It was added to the very first patch that was available after experimental released.  Nice try though.

So now there is a bigger chance that they will break through but has anyone tested it on a horde night? Did they die? Did they have to alternate between melee and repair? I just wonder exactly how bad it is now. If zombies never had even a chance of breaking through before but now there is a chance but it can still be managed by effective horde night management-- it might turn out to be a more thrilling affair.

Or it may turn out to be a disaster. Are there any videos that can be linked? I'd like to see a horde night where the zombies possibly break through where before they never ever did.

I get the upset over the poles for melee defense on horde night. How do the plates destroy your building plans exactly? What were you using them for where 10000 hp were a must and 5000 hp are game killing?

The plates don't break anything for me personally, but if you put them on the ceiling of a 2 block high wall, zombies physically couldn't get through without breaking the plate first, but since they can crouch the block hp doesn't matter anymore.

It will matter again when zombies can climb through 1 meter holes, but even then there are better ways to go about it with poles and what not.

 

[RBN]

Well here’s the answer to all of you who are fine with the HP reduction but angry for the cost. Just earmark all the free blocks you get as poles and plates and your problem is solved. 

Man please, all blocks are under the same generic shape that the trader gives you for "free".

Only that, as pigs said, some blocks are most equal than others.

 

[Roland]

And once again you'll find a way to nerf and ruin anything they figure out, just like this time, just like the time before that and the time before that and the time before that. Anytime players dare step out of line it'll be nerfed out of usefulness. 

Also telling players that bring up legitimate concerts that they are "wailing" just farther proves my point. TFP's are so stuck up their own butts about how the game MUST be played that any one who dares disagrees MUST be dismissed. The fact you are pretending everyone has eventually decided you're right is either you being wildly delusional or straight up lying.

People are still annoyed by needless changes that do nothing but stifle creative and freedom of how to play. I mean this topic by itself are full of people saying "Hey remember that previous alpha when things were a lot better?" And all the replies that aren't from TFP are "yep things were better before they needlessly changed it"

If you guys think everyone should play a certain way then say that and stop lying about wanting players to make their own choices.

There have been some measured responses and good feedback given. But there has also been wailing. You are wailing. You probably need to take a break until experimental is over since you seem not to have the temperament for it. This voluntary beta is for those who are willing to test changes and give things a fair shake and not rant or make overly dramatic sweeping and untrue statements about TFP competing against players and how they build.

I can promise you that there was not one single conversation about "we gotta stop these guys from building in the way that they love to build muwahahahahahahaaaa!" No mustaches were twirled or capes flourished or damsels tied to railroad tracks.

What even makes you think that the current state is the final state?

The reason we don't say that people should play a certain way is because we don't believe that. You are making wild accusations and assuming the worst possible motives which tells me you're a bit emotionally compromised about this change. 

How about you opt out of the beta and go back to A19 until we get to about A20.4 which will be the golden age of A20 that when some future player hates a change in A21 will say, remember when things were great back in A20.4?