PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Rizno]

Making food hard to come by even with farming is an improvement. But with everything, should be customizable for the more casual players, I guess.

 

[Ladarian]

Why is everyone whining about new farming? 

Since when was finding food ever a problem without farming?  Has food survival changed that much with A20?

 

[ltbrunt]

I say release it with bugs as long as they don't cause the game to crash. I have been playing this game through every version bugs and all. Would be happy if A20 releases Friday afternoon, this  way I can get my in-game all weekend grind going. When there is a new 7DTD release I basically don't do anything for few weeks, all life productivity goes down the drain. 

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

Why is everyone whining about new farming? The old mechanic was really OP and also incredibly boring. You just got a whole plantation from several potatoes in a matter of days. It's too easy. It looks bad. It's the OP. That being said, use a cheat menu or mod, or edit the xml files to get as many stacks of food as you need. And stop complaining.

Looking at it for what it is in A19, a sensible and functional system that doesn't need to be molested, couldn't I just use the exact same reasoning and say:

'Those who don't like farming, mod your server or individual game to remove seeds full stop, or just don't farm.'

Just looking at both scenarios fairly. For those who don't mind any change to farming or who just don't use it, why on earth would there be any reasonable objection to leaving it the way it was? It baffles me.

Given the option to mod it out or not use it seems far more reasonable than everyone losing out on something that works and having to mod it back in, all for a number of individuals who couldn't care less about the topic at hand. Bizarre.

Enough damage was done removing the hoe and fertiliser and the nomadic tilling of any land, anywhere.

That was honestly, in my opinion, one of the most incredible additions to 7 Days, and in introducing it, the developers created a level of intimacy and involvement that I have never experienced in another survival game.

Then it was axed...

 

[Khalagar]

Why is everyone whining about new farming? The old mechanic was really OP

People aren't complaining about farming being nerfed to encourage using the perk, people are complaining about the RNG aspect which is not fun and can lead to very unhappy moments, like MisutoM showed in his message on it.  If you take the quest reward for farm items instead of for a gun or bike or something, and get your farm plots and seeds, and have 1 point in living off the land, you can still lose all your seeds after your first harvest with bad RNG, in which case as the player, you are going to ne unhappy that you didn't just take the bicycle or gun

If they want to nerf farming, they can just make it take longer to grow a plant and let living off the land increase growth speed. That way there's no RNG to punish you for daring to try to farm before you have the perk line completely maxed out. The current implementation is basically "Don't touch farming without max perk" because you can lose your entire seed stock

Also, the current method takes way longer and requires a ton more player intervention, which is not fun. It's not a fun use of time to screw around with trying to open menus and craft seeds and drag and drop to hot bars and rearrange things etc just to replant your crops, compared to the current system where you *don't* have to do that and can instead use your time to do something actually enjoyable

 

[Astronomical]

My only real concern about the farming is super corn. What if you get to the point where you run out of the stuff, seeds included?

and then by bad RNG you are left with nothing to plant.

I understand we are talking about a game but this scenario has a serious basis in real life. It's the reason for seed banks.

While I will usually choose game play over realism, I don't see why sometimes they can't align nicely to create a fun and authentic experience.

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

I think this may be a great opportunity since it's still very early on for the developers to poll, and gain feedback from the players.

When we all get to test A20 we can provide proper reflections and they can then decide whether the system should be kept or scrapped.

Only a suggestion, and a thought from me

I understand we are talking about a game but this scenario has a serious basis in real life. It's the reason for seed banks.

While I will usually choose game play over realism, I don't see why sometimes they can't align nicely to create a fun and authentic experience.

I see and appreciate exactly where you're coming from, but by the sounds of this change the only thing its added is tedium and frustration. What it's taken away; potentially, at any rate, is precisely what Khalagar has articulated.

Plus, where does it stop? Why aren't we loading bullets into clips one at a time, for example? Or any one of a mass of other tasks in game that don't accurately reflect real life time consumption...

 

[bdubyah]

I think people are overreacting a bit to the farming changes. At least let the public build come out and try it for yourself. I think it sounds good on paper, and will probably like it because I enjoy the survival side of the game. 

You want easy to collect and craft foods? Gotta spend the time tending to your farm. Why does that seem so crazy to people? Crops die in irl all the time. Deal with it. Get the perk high enough you collect enough to negate any potential losses and move on. You won't spend any more time farming for food than people who prefer to scavenge it will spend looting. And it's safer. So seems like a fair balance to me. Yeah, rng could bend you over a few times and make getting the farm going a bit more difficult, but I'd look at that as a good thing. You'll always remember that when you start a new game later on. Lol. 

People cried when the hoe and fertilizer were cut, saying they made it too easy and simple. Now they are barely going the other direction and people are crying again. Suck it up and give it a chance. 

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

 People cried when the hoe and fertilizer were cut, saying they made it too easy and simple. Now they are barely going the other direction and people are crying again. Suck it up and give it a chance. 

Not true, not in my case at any rate. 

The hoe and fertiliser took work and planning, but they were investments and paid off for the effort it took to till and fertilise the ground. 

My major objection on that front was not having the option of wild planting AND farm plot boxes, but even that wasn't the end of the world because plants degraded to plantlings which was a saving grace, a pretty cool addition from the devs.

Now that's being messed with. That's where the objection lies - with the aforementioned reasons from others on the forums, and some testers, if I have understood correctly.

Just to touch again on the previous posters point about reallistic style farming, and the previous talk of mods, if those who don't bother farming won't be affected either way, then why do realists not use mods?

A genuine and serious question, because if it's more realistic farming that players want, then the amazing skills of some of the modding community would probably produce a farming mod with serious depth to scratch that itch.

This could include things like fertilising and watering soil, and plants themselves, and maybe even pruning or cutting tools or collecting baskets in order to harvest.

All I would like is to have the system left alone, or at very least, the replanting mechanic left alone, even if yield is nerfed.

 

[khzmusik]

For those who don't mind any change to farming or who just don't use it, why on earth would there be any reasonable objection to leaving it the way it was?

I like the changes because I did use farming, in nearly all of my playthroughs, and I found it OP. Once you planted a crop you basically had an AFK food production factory that got exponentially better over time.

That being said, I have already seen some suggestions that I think would improve the current system:

• Higher "living off the land" perk levels would reduce the number of "fruits" required to craft a seed - this would make the perk more valuable
  
• Instead of getting a seed back 50% of the time, have it downgrade to a planted crop in its initial state (like it does now except only 50% of the time) - this would reduce the tedium of re-planting the seeds
  

Also, the "anywhere, with a hoe" farming was apparently changed for technical reasons, they added a new distant terrain system that is incompatible with that farming mechanic. (I only recently learned this.)

And also note that the "hoe" system was basically the same as what is in A20, except there was no chance of getting a seed back. When you harvested your crops the existing plants disappeared and you never got seeds back. (At least that's what I remember from A16,)

 

[Blake_]

I like the changes because I did use farming, in nearly all of my playthroughs, and I found it OP. Once you plant a crop you basically had an AFK food production factory that got exponentially better over time.

That being said, I have already seen some suggestions that I think would improve the current system:

• Higher "living off the land" perk levels would reduce the number of "fruits" required to craft a seed - this would make the perk more valuable
  
• Instead of getting a seed back 50% of the time, have it downgrade to a planted crop in its initial state (like it does now except only 50% of the time) - this would reduce the tedium of re-planting the seeds
  

Also, the "anywhere, with a hoe" farming was apparently changed for technical reasons, they added a new distant terrain system that is incompatible with that farming mechanic. (I only recently learned this.)

And also note that the "hoe" system was basically the same as what is in A20, except there was no chance of getting a seed back. When you harvested your crops the existing plants disappeared and you never got seeds back. (At least that's what I remember from A16,)

Increased yield = your higher seed chance suggestion.

They might appear to be different things but crops make seeds, so you will not be displeased by the result.

Tedium = not a problem really. Better than AFK ketchup factory in a survival game.

 

[Guppycur]

I don't farm so forgive my ignorance.  It sounds like the changes are more in line with how valheim does it, is that accurate? 

Full disclosure...

...I also don't farm in that game.

 

[hiemfire]

A20 streamer exp release farming is more realistic? My ass. More realistic would be only needing one ear, gourd, plant, or tuber to craft seeds for 3+ plots, a much longer growing time (several game weeks would properly emulate it, though grow times less than 12 game weeks would be short), more incremental maintenance and a yield per plant more along the lines of the tier 3 perk as the base line. Stuff the "more realistic" argument.

A20 streamer exp release farming is one of the key devs thinking people in a survival situation doing what people in a survival situation will do if there is stuff available, focus on stock piling as much as they can incase something @%$#ty happens to the point where anything outside their 1km*1km area means little beyond achieving that till it is stable, is wrong for a "survival" game.

Honestly the conflict may come from competing perspectives on what a "survival" game entails. The "Rocks are falling, every one is dying, see how long you last before you die, but you will die horribly since this is humanity's extinction you're living in" predetermined end mindset vs the "Hey, @%$#'s gotten bad but we can rebuild" open world game mind set. 

 

[khzmusik]

Tedium = not a problem really. Better than AFK ketchup factory in a survival game.

Honestly, my suspicion is that the people who don't like this change, aren't actually interested in playing a survival game. They're more interested in playing an FPS, and the "survival" aspects are just annoyances that you get through once you're past early game. You can see this in people who focus on adding more weapons or zombie variations and don't really care about much else. (Not that I'm against those things.)

 

[Astronomical]

Just to touch again on the previous posters point about reallistic style farming, and the previous talk of mods, if those who don't bother farming won't be affected either way, then why do realists not use mods?

My previous post was not to say that I preferred a realistic approach to farming in 7dtd, just that the new balancing changes happened to more reflect it.

Apparently many others in addition to myself, including the devs, found a19 farming to be too easy for this type of game. However, it does seem to be a system that is still being balanced so who knows.. you may be happy with the end result. If not there's always mods.

To be clear though, people that want to play the game in the most balanced way as presented by the devs should be able to play on default. Those who would like the game made easier (a19 farming for example) or much harder should be the ones to use mods.

 

[Khalagar]

Honestly, my suspicion is that the people who don't like this change, aren't actually interested in playing a survival game.

I literally can't think of a survival game where food is an issue past early game, or where farming / food production isn't AFK / essentially AFK by late game.

Tedious = / = better

In most survival games it just requires material investment / set up cost to get going, and then usually is fire and forget. I've got thousands of hours in survival games, like 750 in 7 Days to Die alone, and I don't get the gatekeeping of what real survival game fans would like.  I'm currently playing a turbo hardcore survival Skyrim playthrough which adds a bajillion tedious systems for food and water, weather, sleep,  comfort, warmth, armor degradation, weapon effectiveness vs armor types,  etc etc etc, and while it's fun to me I can definitely see why it wouldn't be fun to everyone else. And even in that, food is a nonfactor because you can just come up with so much of it.

Struggling for food is always just supposed to be an early game challenge, even the changes to food in A20 are barely mid game changes, they are just annoying rather than challenging for mid and late game.  All of the proposed fixes aren't making it easier they are making it less tedious because again, tedious = / = better

 

[khzmusik]

I literally can't think of a survival game where food is an issue past early game, or where farming / food production isn't AFK / essentially AFK by late game.

You're not wrong, but that doesn't mean survival games are better because of it. For me that's a flaw in the game design (though not a flaw that is unique, it happens in nearly all survival games).

I'm guessing it's a big reason that people tend to abandon survival games when they reach mid-game or end-game. That certainly seems to happen a lot with 7D2D, and I've done it myself with other games like Subnautica. Once you have set up an endless supply of food and water, it's a short step from "away from keyboard" to "away from game."

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

Honestly, my suspicion is that the people who don't like this change, aren't actually interested in playing a survival game. They're more interested in playing an FPS, and the "survival" aspects are just annoyances that you get through once you're past early game. You can see this in people who focus on adding more weapons or zombie variations and don't really care about much else. (Not that I'm against those things.)

Again, not anywhere near a desciption of myself as a player or my playstyle.

I love the mining and building aspects of the game, trying to create a little eden and struggling to do so, and to maintain it.

As frustrating as it is, I've also had games where myself and friends all looting and scavenging took weeks in game to come across a single mushroom spore.

Finding one was cause for celebration, an achievement reached, and rewarding especially considering some recipies require them.

I do enjoy fending off the undead/semidead, but I much prefer brawling melee, and not guns. FPS playstyle is not something I would include in my own personal preferred gaming experience, and any gun play or varied weapon use is as a means of brute survival more than anything else.

If later perking does indeed negate this seed disappearing garbage, then I will spec into it and not have any problem.

However, even if I can avoid this and enjoy, I am still considerate enough for lesser fortunate individuals who have a tendency to invest in other builds and rarely put anything bar minimum into the farming perk.

Just because they don't play farmer builds, they shouldn't be shafted either. Less crops per harvest is bad enough.

 

[meganoth]

I like this idea.

but how about this?

why not leave the seeds when you harvest, but instead have a 50% chance to yield from the crops when you harvest so  there are 2 out comes

A) you harvest it and get the appropriate resources and it goes back to a seedling

B) you harvest it and get 0 resources and it becomes a seedling

and you could even have a percentage for partial harvest maybe?

You create the exact same amount of scarcity without all the hassle or frustrating outcomes

I don't think this is equivalent, because you forgot that in the current system you need part of the harvest to replace the spoiled seeds if you want a sustainable farm. For comparison, here is the (hopefully correct) math for farming in A20:

Assume you have 10 seeds and LotL 1. After 3 days this yields 30 produce and on average you have 5 seeds left (in your inventory for A20, already in the farm plot with my idea). To replace the 5 spoiled seeds you need 5*5 = 25 of the produce which means your surplus out of 10 farming plots per 3-day-season is 30-25 = 5 produce.

With your idea you don't need to replace any seeds so you get a surplus of 15 produce.

And there is another difference: In the A20-version of farming the player has the option to NOT replace seeds to get out more food at first but with diminishing results every 3 days. In the end you would get (ideally) nearly 60 produce out of the 10 seeds. I don't think this difference is important, just wanted to mention it.

But I like your idea as well. It could easily be adapted to result in any surplus percentage desired. And it still has that random element which I like.

 

[khzmusik]

Again, not anywhere near a desciption of myself as a player or my playstyle.

I love the mining and building aspects of the game, trying to create a little eden and struggling to do so.

As much as it's frustrating, I had gamed where myself and friends all looting and scavenging took weeks in game to come across a single mushroom spore.

It was like Christmas came early, especially considering some recipies require it.

I do enjoy fending off the undead/semidead, but I much prefer brawling melee, and not guns. FPS playstyle is not something I would include in my own personal gaming experience, and any gun play or varied weapon use is as a means of brute survival more than anything else.

If later perking does indeed negate this seed disappearing garbage, then I will spec into it and not have any problem.

However, even if I can avoid this and enjoy, I sam still considerate enough for lesser fortunate individuals who have a tendency to imvest in other builds and rarely put anything bar minimum into the farming perk.

Just because they don't play farmer builds, they shouldn't be shafted either. Less crops per harvest is bad enough.

I should have been clearer. When I said "FPS" I probably should have said "combat" - I include melee.

And, I too enjoy finding things like mushroom seeds, but in previous alphas that thrill was pretty much over once you found your first seed. From then on out, you were all set for that crop.

I'd much rather have that thrill be there even in late game, and right now it's not. That was what I was getting at.

EDIT: I'm also not trying to rag on people who like combat. I like it too. I just want the survival aspects to get harder in the same way that killing zombies gets harder.