PC Alpha 19 Loot System improvement

[Bashtiks]

Whats this idea about key finding? You want to play in open world destructable envairoment but want keys to open indestructable safes? Any safe should be opened with a simple banging, using drill and locpicks, timed charges, maybe even with few good aimed shots from 50cal or yes a key  

I would want to see a pimps to implament chance to rob a trader

 

[meganoth]

The idea about keys in short:

The main loot in POIs could be in a special room with concrete or even steel walls and a similar door. The door can only be openend with a key you find somewhere else in the building, on a zombie or in a hidden loot location used in fetch quests.

Naturally such a fortified room won't be suitable for all POIs. And you can ignore the key requirement and cut through the destroyable walls or door, but in early game it will easily costs you more time than just looking for the key

 

[guardianangelmp]

I kind of doubt that, like what can they exactly add in?

We are missing swords and actual axes from the melee group but neither of those are stone age and for ranged options we can get like:

1. Flintlock pistols what are just weaker blunderbusses again with a single shot barrel.
   
2. Primitive Crossbows
   
3. The chinese repeating crossbow what im sure will cost bow parts
   

And like thats all, theres not much actual primitive gear they can add. They could literally add a brass age and it would still be the same weapons because weapon variety only really started with iron.

Also a small nitpick but looking at how could you craft a blunderbuss it is not even supposed to be a stone age weapon but actually iron age because you need forged iron to make one from the scratch (pipes are from forged iron).

They need to abadon this stone age nonsense and realize that its essentially a tutorial stage what players should breeze over for a lenghty middlegame stage with iron and steel and the endgame with special equipments.

Oh, I agree with you entirely; they should keep the stone items stage to a minimal time and extend the t1 stage....but for now they are stuck on "stone age" idea.

Roland said they are planning/looking on adding iron pipe pistols and rifles.

And while your nitpicking is technically correct I think you know what they imply with the "stone age" items (pre modern age weapons), as they are more referring to the items you craft in game at the start and not the real world, prehistoric stone age.

Would you prefer they call it the t0 stage?

 

[RipClaw]

The main loot in POIs could be in a special room with concrete or even steel walls and a similar door. The door can only be openend with a key you find somewhere else in the building, on a zombie or in a hidden loot location used in fetch quests.

I can imagine that this also leads to frustration if the player has gone through the complete POI but cannot find the key. Just to avoid such a frustration, clear quests have a helper that shows you the last remaining zombies.

 

[IroncrossBG]

I think the best solution is to just revert to A16 weapon parts(1-600) while keeping weapon mods too(they are awesome). I found a AK on day one, ammo is easy enough to get, just build wood blocks to POI chest... I don't even use any melee weapons and Bow/Crossbow(except the explosive arrows/bolts for horde nights). Get a AK and a pump/auto shotgun - you just won the game... whats the point? Also, spending 20-40 minutes to clear a medium-large POI just to get three blunderbusses, crossbow bolts and pistol/AK ammo doesn't make any freaking sense...

Just finished day 28(90 min day) horde night(small 5x5 concrete bunker with iron bars, shotgun turrets and iron spikes), i got every single weapon, Motorcycle and Gyro... finished the game, nothing really to do anymore...

 

[meganoth]

I can imagine that this also leads to frustration if the player has gone through the complete POI but cannot find the key. Just to avoid such a frustration, clear quests have a helper that shows you the last remaining zombies.

The same with fetch-quests. it doesn't matter much for completion if it is on a random zombie or in a fetch-location, both have helper icons now.

I prefer the random-zombie solution because the fetch-key location would be shown immediately and can be used for shortcuts while the last zombie gets only shown at the end, so getting the key is determined by chance.

 

[manni44]

The idea about keys in short:

The main loot in POIs could be in a special room with concrete or even steel walls and a similar door. The door can only be openend with a key you find somewhere else in the building, on a zombie or in a hidden loot location used in fetch quests.

Naturally such a fortified room won't be suitable for all POIs. And you can ignore the key requirement and cut through the destroyable walls or door, but in early game it will easily costs you more time than just looking for the key

The goal should be to make the endgame harder not the early game. Like the already existing 7 days Meme "oh i found a Shotgun Game over"

 

[Solomon]

And while your nitpicking is technically correct I think you know what they imply with the "stone age" items (pre modern age weapons), as they are more referring to the items you craft in game at the start and not the real world, prehistoric stone age.

Would you prefer they call it the t0 stage?

Honestly i rather see them get some actual primitive looking weapons.

Have you ever heard of the wood cannon? Its a big log with a hole in it what can fire some rounds before shattering, the same can be done for many weapons they just need to look primitive and actually only use primitive items.

OR

Just expand the base gun arsenal so we have weak, okay and strong versions of all weapons for all ages.

 

[meganoth]

The goal should be to make the endgame harder not the early game. Like the already existing 7 days Meme "oh i found a Shotgun Game over"

The Meme for early game is really "oh i found a gun Game over".

Read caatalysts post above to see what we were discussing. It was about early game and having a chance to get AKs on day 1 if you take on a challenge. If you want a shotgun messiah residing in an easy biome and still have OP weapons in it instead of stone age weapons (or just ammo) you have to make sure it is very difficult to get those weapons.

 

[manni44]

The Meme for early game is really "oh i found a gun Game over".

Read caatalysts post above to see what we were discussing. It was about early game and having a chance to get AKs on day 1 if you take on a challenge. If you want a shotgun messiah residing in an easy biome and still have OP weapons in it instead of stone age weapons (or just ammo) you have to make sure it is very difficult to get those weapons.

But even if u make it hard to get the good stuff, the game is over as soon as u get a shotgun in ur hands.

No matter how long it takes to get It. It wont be long enough, or too long for ppl.

I feel like u cant make anyone realy happy if u make early game super hard. Early game shuld be medium hard in the beginning. and endgame should feel like Nightmare on Dope. That way new players can easy learn the game with less frustration and hardcore peeps have a challenge.

Right now its just when ever u get ur first gun u win. 

Limiting the access to guns early game wont cut the problem we have, it just delayes it.

 

[meganoth]

But even if u make it hard to get the good stuff, the game is over as soon as u get a shotgun in ur hands.

No matter how long it takes to get It. It wont be long enough, or too long for ppl.

I feel like u cant make anyone realy happy if u make early game super hard. Early game shuld be medium hard in the beginning. and endgame should feel like Nightmare on Dope. That way new players can easy learn the game with less frustration and hardcore peeps have a challenge.

Right now its just when ever u get ur first gun u win. 

Limiting the access to guns early game wont cut the problem we have, it just delayes it.

I think tier0 weapons and normal zombies are well matched though. And tier1 weapons and ferals are well matched. Which begs the question: Should ferals come sooner or tier1 guns even later?

Yes, shotguns are still one rung above all others and lots of people would accept a nerf I guess. But tier1 shotgun is just the double-barrel. And even with two of them on the belt it is very easy to forget to reload one.

Are you of the opinion the early game is super hard now? Or do you think changing a few POIs to be more difficult is super hard even though 95% of buildings will stay as they are now? 

 

[manni44]

  I can only talk for nightmare/Insane settings.

There is no real gameplay without to cheese the ai with these settings. just because u are so gimped at the beginning u need to fight them from the distance but the actual weapons are not doing the job, i mean come on.. blunderbuss only? I know there is more to come and im happy about that. Meele only works with cheese Frames and or blocks u fast create.

But now to ur question.

I think tier0 weapons and normal zombies are well matched though. And tier1 weapons and ferals are well matched. Which begs the question: Should ferals come sooner or tier1 guns even later?

First of all. What is the real goal ? What do we want to accomplish here ? Is it about how long a player should stay in stonage.

Or is it about how Kittet a player will be by day 7 day 14 ? I dont even know. 

We cant realy talk about this until we get the zones and see how they want to balance it. 

I think its OK as it is but we need something harder as ferals. They are just to weak at some point.

In this state of the game we realy have to wait for the zones and balance them. All talking about balancing guns/Zombies right now will be obsolete once Zones are in the game. + They wont rebalnce anything before that happens.

Yes, shotguns are still one rung above all others and lots of people would accept a nerf I guess. But tier1 shotgun is just the double-barrel. And even with two of them on the belt it is very easy to forget to reload one.

Noooooo Pls dont gimb my shotty again, i love her so much 

Are you of the opinion the early game is super hard now? Or do you think changing a few POIs to be more difficult is super hard even though 95% of buildings will stay as they are now? 

Super hard ? not realy its kinda boring, thats the point i want to make. I want it to be more interesting. Not harder or more easy. It should be Fairly Hard On insane settings. But bulletsponges and no guns at all until day XX are not the solution for us here i think. 

So what is the solution ? No F idea Realy. 

The only thing i see is, We can make the endgame harder way harder then it is right now. So we wont feel like game over once u get a shotty.

If we cant make it any harder we have to talk about nerfing things like guns and so on but as i said its all obsolete already until Zones are in.

Edit

If we are talking about the zone balancing right now.

The best of the best items should be super hard to get yes.

But if u have like only 5% of the buildings super hard and only there will spawn the best stuff. U will run out of buildings to loot in a short time. If u can only obtain the best of the best loot wiht quests only in those buildings u are cutting the players freedom once more. ppl Like choices and as much freedom they can get when it comes to open world games. 

 

[meganoth]

  I can only talk for nightmare/Insane settings.

There is no real gameplay without to cheese the ai with these settings. just because u are so gimped at the beginning u need to fight them from the distance but the actual weapons are not doing the job, i mean come on.. blunderbuss only? I know there is more to come and im happy about that. Meele only works with cheese Frames and or blocks u fast create.

But now to ur question.

First of all. What is the real goal ? What do we want to accomplish here ? Is it about how long a player should stay in stonage.

Or is it about how Kittet a player will be by day 7 day 14 ? I dont even know. 

We cant realy talk about this until we get the zones and see how they want to balance it. 

I think its OK as it is but we need something harder as ferals. They are just to weak at some point.

In this state of the game we realy have to wait for the zones and balance them. All talking about balancing guns/Zombies right now will be obsolete once Zones are in the game. + They wont rebalnce anything before that happens.

Noooooo Pls dont gimb my shotty again, i love her so much 

Super hard ? not realy its kinda boring, thats the point i want to make. I want it to be more interesting. Not harder or more easy. It should be Fairly Hard On insane settings. But bulletsponges and no guns at all until day XX are not the solution for us here i think. 

So what is the solution ? No F idea Realy. 

The only thing i see is, We can make the endgame harder way harder then it is right now. So we wont feel like game over once u get a shotty.

If we cant make it any harder we have to talk about nerfing things like guns and so on but as i said its all obsolete already until Zones are in.

Edit

If we are talking about the zone balancing right now.

The best of the best items should be super hard to get yes.

But if u have like only 5% of the buildings super hard and only there will spawn the best stuff. U will run out of buildings to loot in a short time. If u can only obtain the best of the best loot wiht quests only in those buildings u are cutting the players freedom once more. ppl Like choices and as much freedom they can get when it comes to open world games. 

It was you who was talking about "super hard" in your previous post, I was merely asking what you meant by it.

My personal opinion of the harder biomes or POIs is different from TFP: I think those harder zones will just lure experienced players to go there very early to get guns. Once they have a gun, say at day 3 or 4, the normal zones will be too easy for them again as they are now with a tier1 gun against normal zombies and they will not be really happy about it and complain about the game being boring. At least that is a danger of having those harder areas.

Those 5% of the buildings with special loot rooms are the biggest buildings in the game (tier4 and tier5 quest buildings). And if you want to loot only buildings with better loot you just have to settle into one of the harder biomes, the buildings there can be any you'll find in normal zones, but ... with better loot.

Don't expect too much from pipe weapons, they probably will all have a magazine size of one or two and @%$*#!ty damage and very low precision and won't enable you to just shoot down zombies from afar in insane. 

 

[manni44]

It was you who was talking about "super hard" in your previous post, I was merely asking what you meant by it.

My personal opinion of the harder biomes or POIs is different from TFP: I think those harder zones will just lure experienced players to go there very early to get guns. Once they have a gun, say at day 3 or 4, the normal zones will be too easy for them again as they are now with a tier1 gun against normal zombies and they will not be really happy about it and complain about the game being boring. At least that is a danger of having those harder areas.

Indeed this is whats going to happen but i cant see a real problem there. If loot is gamestaged the might get a t1 from a t5 questbuilding but what is wrong in taking shortcuts ? if u played like 1000 hours + its ur own choice if u want to take a shortcut or not. Thats how i see it others see it diffrent i know. 

Those 5% of the buildings with special loot rooms are the biggest buildings in the game (tier4 and tier5 quest buildings). And if you want to loot only buildings with better loot you just have to settle into one of the harder biomes, the buildings there can be any you'll find in normal zones, but ... with better loot.

i have to settle there ? i guess u mean i can just walk over to the hard zone and have my base in the noob zone right ? 

Don't expect too much from pipe weapons, they probably will all have a magazine size of one or two and @%$*#!ty damage and very low precision and won't enable you to just shoot down zombies from afar in insane. 

I know whos playing with the numbers here i never expect anything fancy  at least we will get something which is better than nothing.

Right now a19 has a lot of flaws when it comes to loot and sadly it will be like this until the zones update.

But ok i remember wrose updates, i remember when we had weapon and tool degration when repairing. Which turned me crazy killed my ocd  made me ragequit until next alpha. Over all a19 is good just would have been better to include the zones with the lootchanges and itemranges(i mean whos idea was it to make a T0 lvl6 better than a T1 lvl3 item ??? OCD triggered again ).

 

[meganoth]

Indeed this is whats going to happen but i cant see a real problem there. If loot is gamestaged the might get a t1 from a t5 questbuilding but what is wrong in taking shortcuts ? if u played like 1000 hours + its ur own choice if u want to take a shortcut or not. Thats how i see it others see it diffrent i know. 

No problem for me. The one who is taking a shortcut has a better weapon now, but it doesn't necessarily mean he advances faster in xp/levels. For him the game just got a lot easier if he ever goes back to normal biomes. So he has to stay in the harder zones to not get bored. Effectively this just cuts the stone age short, after that there is no change in pace or loot quality at all. If that is all he wants, good for him.

i have to settle there ? i guess u mean i can just walk over to the hard zone and have my base in the noob zone right ? 

Yeah, sure, but why bother? Once you have a tier1 gun at day 3 (for example) the normal biome is just trivial and the hard zone obviously where the better loot is.

I know whos playing with the numbers here i never expect anything fancy  at least we will get something which is better than nothing.

Right now a19 has a lot of flaws when it comes to loot and sadly it will be like this until the zones update.

But ok i remember wrose updates, i remember when we had weapon and tool degration when repairing. Which turned me crazy killed my ocd  made me ragequit until next alpha. Over all a19 is good just would have been better to include the zones with the lootchanges and itemranges(i mean whos idea was it to make a T0 lvl6 better than a T1 lvl3 item ??? OCD triggered again ).

 

[manni44]

Yeah, sure, but why bother? Once you have a tier1 gun at day 3 (for example) the normal biome is just trivial and the hard zone obviously where the better loot is.

I dont know the layout of the zones yet pretty much i know nothing about them yet^^ 

howmany zones will there be ? like 3 Noobzone, Midgamezone, Endgamezone.... this would lead to trouble once u play midgamezone and stay there for a while and u will build a base there. But now u want to move to the endgame and have to move all ur stuff to the new base + ur old base is worthless. this dosnt make sense to me. Im shure u guys got a plan already cant wait what u come up with 

 

[meganoth]

I dont know the layout of the zones yet pretty much i know nothing about them yet^^ 

howmany zones will there be ? like 3 Noobzone, Midgamezone, Endgamezone.... this would lead to trouble once u play midgamezone and stay there for a while and u will build a base there. But now u want to move to the endgame and have to move all ur stuff to the new base + ur old base is worthless. this dosnt make sense to me. Im shure u guys got a plan already cant wait what u come up with 

I'm not one of the developers, I'm just a normal forum user (with a "side job" of moderator). But from what I read here on the forum it probably will be this way:

You have the biomes like now. Forest and burned forest will be the easy biomes. desert a bit more difficult, snow and wasteland the most difficult. What that means is that once you go into the desert, zombies and loot there just get a gamestage bonus of (for example) 20. So if you are at gamestage 16, in the desert you are gamestage 36 instead, changing which zombies you encounter and what loot you find. And in the snow biome that gamestage bonus might be 40.

The other feature they want to implement are radiation zones. They didn't tell us much details, but probably radiation zones might be small areas with just one or two POIs in them. And you need a radiation suit or lots of healing items to survive going in there.  And you need to hurry. Get in fast, grab what you can, get out before your HPs run out.

 

[RipClaw]

  I can only talk for nightmare/Insane settings.

There is no real gameplay without to cheese the ai with these settings. just because u are so gimped at the beginning u need to fight them from the distance but the actual weapons are not doing the job, i mean come on.. blunderbuss only? I know there is more to come and im happy about that. Meele only works with cheese Frames and or blocks u fast create.

You know Jonah Birch? He streams on twitch several times a week "7 Days to die" always plays on Insane, Nightmare Speed and with Permadeath.

You can learn a lot from him about how to use primitive weapons effectively. His favorite weapon in the early game is the bone knife. The bleeding damage is your best friend in the early game on this difficulty.
 

 

[manni44]

You know Jonah Birch? He streams on twitch several times a week "7 Days to die" always plays on Insane, Nightmare Speed and with Permadeath.

You can learn a lot from him about how to use primitive weapons effectively. His favorite weapon in the early game is the bone knife. The bleeding damage is your best friend in the early game on this difficulty.
 

i know him hes one of the best permadeath players , but also he cheeses the ai once it comes to melee combat. Btw im just talking about the very beginning of the game when u have zero skills. The more skills u get the less u have to cheese the ai in melee. 

 

[leaderdog]

About finding Stone tools in loot ... Of course you would.  The survivor who got there before you took the marksman's rifle and left his blunderbus / stone axe because he thought it would help you.  You know, the guy who buys from your rented vending machine....

And then what? carefully sealed up the loot container from the Shotgun Messiah?  Sorry that's just ridiculous.  Finding that crap loot in backpacks sure I can see that.  But locked gun cases and sealed shotgun messiah containers is just wrong.

IF you want to play that logic, then have two randomized loot containers that spawn with your gamestage.  At low gamestages at a glance you can see an already picked through container - tool stiffy or shogun messiah container, knowing you'll likely get crap.  But if you have to break into a safe or any loot container with a lock pick or smash it open, there darn well should be something that doesn't resemble day one crap you can craft.

I'm still of the mind that progression made/makes no sense in a survival game,  but now that they're trying to be fallout, the game is also trying to be an RTS with the gamestage.  Which makes zero sense at all.  To me it's just mindless busy work and time wasted.  The same reason I quit playing World of Warcraft all those years ago.  I enjoyed the start over always did, but now I don't want to.  It's so unbearably boring raising the skill tree.  Which again was never needed.  But it seems many of you require a 'feeling' that you've accomplished something rather than just setting a goal and working towards it. 

I think a lot of this nonsense was added for multiplayer play.  Because as a single player it's a lot of time wasted on raising skills because you'll be making better iron tools and steel tools LONG before you find a decent one in the loot containers.

I rarely use firearms in this game, and thank the gods the pimps fixed melee combat because I've always preferred that, but finding garbage in a loot container or a safe when you used 5-8 lock picks to get in isn't one of those good 'feelings' a gamer is looking for.

Until they build level difficulty zones, which is a better idea, I think this is just a terrible artificial way to extend the game.  How many of you actually play into the 100+ days?  I don't typically.  unless I have a very ambitious build I want to make.  I'm bored by then because I don't like bullet sponge zombies, and the gear scales poorly/unnecessarily.  Starting over was a blast because of the loot system and the randomization.  That's gone.  That's boring, the start is now boring and feels tedious to level up.  They went from the greatest game I've ever played to quickly becoming just another on the pile.  That unique character the game had is being so watered down it's feels now like it's just trying to be a copy of other games.  That's just sad really.

edit:

Just to add to this, building the mini bike used to be fun, finding the parts (or building them) then upgrading the battery or motor was enjoyable.  It might be more "gameish" than "realistic"  but that type of minigame inside the game was more fun than the way the vehicles are now.  It was always a joy to find a better motor to swap out in your minibike to get more speed from it.  Now we just have the gutless vehicles that get stuck on everything.  But that random joy has been replaced with,... well nothing.