PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Toban]

The point you are making is irrelevant to the nerdpole question. You seem to be trying to prove that the game can be won without nerdpoling on hardest settings? Someone playing this game to build a good looking fortress and have a fun time defending it against zombies in a non-competitive way will simply shrug and ask "So what?"

I agree, an option could be a solution that would make you, Jonah and (surprise) Roland happy. Developers don't like to add options early in development because optional features have to be supported and tested all through the rest of development and fill up the GUI. But at the moment it is mostly you arguing for, and dozens of people arguing against it, which fills up the forum but is not really showing great demand for your option.

What you call water wings is a different playstyle and evolving into different directions. For a player like Toban the goal probably is not to go up the difficulty ladder to become like you, he likes to build. His goal will probably be to build a castle to top Castle Neuschwanstein, not to survive on 25% loot.

Even if someone has the goal to make the game more and more difficult and loose the water wings, he might like to do that without making building a chore. Most people playing 7D2D don't have to prove anything to their audience, they don't have one to begin with.

You kinda hit the nail on the head here mate. I'm certainly no elitist haha.

In general I suck at games, but, tbh, we often play dead is dead on hard settings. But then there are times I like to have a relaxed game and build till I can no longer click my mouse lol. I like the idea of options, it allows me to play how I feel at the time. 

I rarely get involved with debates on what is good or bad, but I just don't think the idea of removing nerd poling is great. That's the only reason I said anything about it.

 

[meganoth]

No, it's not untrue mate, i'm not exaggerating. I don't use hyperboles unless I know what I am talking about. 

Making a wall around your base means you have an extra change per block, that they will choose another block. But in the end, whenever a block takes 10% damage or has a bit less health than another. All of the zombies will focus on it, so yeah you can spam repair it, but that's not really the point of making fortress walls now is it?

So what, REAL castles where build with thick walls and the understanding that attackers would definitely target the weakest spot on their walls. And attackers focused on it. And they were built so the defenders could shoot on the attackers while they were focusing their attention on getting the wall breached. Oh look, that is just what works perfectly in this game too. You are perfectly fine with such a castle, definitely on default difficulty. And like reality, if the archers don't do their job, the attackers might actually breach the wall and enter the castle.

Keeping true to a PoI's design and making it efficient is one hell of a fun task, but you literally have to think about how the AI pathing works (so new players are completely out of the equation) so you know exactly what path they will take, and that has only work so far in my A18 base (after A17 AI update)  on the elementary school base....because I literally had no block (besides spikes and blade traps bla bla) on the front entrance, and in the end, the base worked like a tower defense game, where I had multiple base defense stages inside (and yeah it was hella fun, until demolishers started appearing), but this is only because I knew how the pathing worked, a newer player will have a hard time if he goes by common sense.

Your best common sense is still staying on top of a building and waiting, getting on top of a building and shooting them down through your "floor" iron bars, or hoping on unrealistic killing houses that exploit the AI (which is not wrong and doesn't affect me, it's just a different playstyle that keeps getting more and more worshipped). 

My point is, the zombies are getting smarter and smarter, rendering a lot of previously decent bases, useless. And the player character is not even picking up the pace if the players want to play realistically (which forces people to use cheap tactics, bloodmoon "bases"  and those that don't want to use em, get screwed), again, staying on top of the roof is pretty one of the last few realistic and solid choices.

Oh and zombies now swim faster than you, let that sink in, because they won't anymore.

Once you learn the zombies AI you can go up the difficulty and build bases that withstand a lot harder zombies or more than 8 zombies per player. You build funnels and trap-filled bridges to your castle (strategies that were used by real-world castles too) and survive those as well. You are then playing on a higher difficulty, it should go without saying that you have learned something about the zombies now and can build more efficient structures.

Yes, there are a few base designs that were invulnerable before (unlike reality) and are less effective and more difficult to implement now (unlike reality) but I don't see a way around that. (Talking about bunkers here, any other examples?)

 

[RipClaw]

I don't think most of the people with a audience even, are trying to prove anything.

But they try to entertain people and that influences the way they play. Rather tedious things are done less and instead what promises more action.

Same with Glock9, he's just having a good time as far as I can tell.

I doubt he'd do so many reckless things without an audience. He's always showing off. You can tell.

I remember for example that he died one time because he got cocky and wanted to jump from the crane onto the skeleton frame when looting the construction site. Instead of playing it safe and using frames he wanted to show off. That is why many of his series are so short. He gets cocky at some point and then he usually dies.

 

[Dethar]

Once you turn off EAC all legitimacy is out the window. I already have issue with balance in vanilla, its not going to be any better in someones mod, in fact its likely to be worse.

If you think EAC has anything to do with legitimacy in any way, then I truly feel sorry for you.

 

[RhinoW]

So what, REAL castles where build with thick walls and the understanding that attackers would definitely target the weakest spot on their walls. And attackers focused on it. And they were built so the defenders could shoot on the attackers while they were focusing their attention on getting the wall breached. Oh look, that is just what works perfectly in this game too. You are perfectly fine with such a castle, definitely on default difficulty. And like reality, if the archers don't do their job, the attackers might actually breach the wall and enter the castle.

Once you learn the zombies AI you can go up the difficulty and build bases that withstand a lot harder zombies or more than 8 zombies per player. You build funnels and trap-filled bridges to your castle (strategies that were used by real-world castles too) and survive those as well. You are then playing on a higher difficulty, it should go without saying that you have learned something about the zombies now and can build more efficient structures.

Yes, there are a few base designs that were invulnerable before (unlike reality) and are less effective and more difficult to implement now (unlike reality) but I don't see a way around that. (Talking about bunkers here, any other examples?)

I can still how you my previous alpha bases, including THE A16 base, that was built on the scrapyard PoI and I turned it into a freaking last stand base, with catwalks, double thick walls (plates on the inside), spot lights, realistically placed traps, turrets and not a single place that was inaccessible to the player unless I had the drawbridge up (like real life). What had worked on A16 (having an open gate letting them through for the traps to take care of them, having some rogue ones being taken care of by the spikes and my friend also walking around the catwalks, yadda yadda) didn't work in A17, they prefered to break through literally 2 concrete blocks instead of going through a little open corridor (with an iron door, that has much less health than a freaking concrete t2 block) which made my base literally useless, and we just had to kite them along the catwalks because we got out swarmed through 1 little spot.

Oh and invulnerable? Like the funnels and unrealistic killing houses with 1 way entrances that players have built and still work now, the funny pole wall protection that let's you melee them? My "invulnerable"  and realistic A16 base, took 70 90minute days to freaking build , terraforming, gather materials with my friend and still wasn't perfect/finished. If by that point i can't get rewarded with a proper defense, then the game has failed one of the main principles of game design. Not luckily, it was the most fun i've had in bloodmoons and I was always eager for the next. Oh, and I didn't build it from scratch, as I said, it was built/upgraded on a PoI, let that sink in for your "invulnerability is bad" standard.

Also, did you really just compare zombies to military strategists and soldiers, with trebuchets,  catapults, oil based flammable projectiles, and other gate/wall breaching war weapons? Are you serious? They obviously had the cognitive capability and experience to know, even before the wall got damaged, where they would hit...

You see, I avoid making unnecessary comparisons with the real world, but, with all due respect, do you really want me to play the same game? I can start talking about real-life parkour, how flesh works, how armor works, how zombies should die easily and not be able to do jack @%$*#! against iron armor, how swat soldiers don't carry c4's on their chests, how concrete walls would never be smashed by fists (unless it's a giant), how having a working, upgraded and solid vehicle like the truck would make you king of the apocalypse. Oh and how it's unrealistic that you build a literally concrete house on your own, with metal bars and all the fancy stuff. You can pull these pretty easily out of your back pocket.

 

[STyK_]

Same with Glock9, he's just having a good time as far as I can tell.

I don't think glock9 is the best example, he wasn't always like that either. Kage848 or Games4kickz would be better examples.

 

[Demandred1957]

But they try to entertain people and that influences the way they play. Rather tedious things are done less and instead what promises more action.

I doubt he'd do so many reckless things without an audience. He's always showing off. You can tell.

I remember for example that he died one time because he got cocky and wanted to jump from the crane onto the skeleton frame when looting the construction site. Instead of playing it safe and using frames he wanted to show off. That is why many of his series are so short. He gets cocky at some point and then he usually dies.

True, I try to entertain people too. But it doesn't effect how I play. I just edit the boring stuff out.

But "showing off" doesn't really mean proving anything I think.

IMO showing off is more like "hey! look what I can do! Isn't that neat!?!"

LIke BMX guys doing tricks, Stunt pilots, Pool trick shot artist's, etc.

 

[meganoth]

I can still how you my previous alpha bases, including THE A16 base, that was built on the scrapyard PoI and I turned it into a freaking last stand base, with catwalks, double thick walls (plates on the inside), spot lights, realistically placed traps, turrets and not a single place that was inaccessible to the player unless I had the drawbridge up (like real life). What had worked on A16 (having an open gate letting them through for the traps to take care of them, having some rogue ones being taken care of by the spikes and my friend also walking around the catwalks, yadda yadda) didn't work in A17, they prefered to break through literally 2 concrete blocks instead of going through a little open corridor (with an iron door, that has much less health than a freaking concrete t2 block) which made my base literally useless, and we just had to kite them along the catwalks because we got out swarmed through 1 little spot.

Oh and invulnerable? Like the funnels and unrealistic killing houses with 1 way entrances that players have built and still work now, the funny pole wall protection that let's you melee them? My "invulnerable"  and realistic A16 base, took 70 90minute days to freaking build , terraforming, gather materials with my friend and still wasn't perfect/finished. If by that point i can't get rewarded with a proper defense, then the game has failed one of the main principles of game design. Not luckily, it was the most fun i've had in bloodmoons and I was always eager for the next. Oh, and I didn't build it from scratch, as I said, it was built/upgraded on a PoI, let that sink in for your "invulnerability is bad" standard.

Also, did you really just compare zombies to military strategists and soldiers, with trebuchets,  catapults, oil based flammable projectiles, and other gate/wall breaching war weapons? Are you serious? They obviously had the cognitive capability and experience to know, even before the wall got damaged, where they would hit...

You see, I avoid making unnecessary comparisons with the real world, but, with all due respect, do you really want me to play the same game? I can start talking about real-life parkour, how flesh works, how armor works, how zombies should die easily and not be able to do jack @%$*#! against iron armor, how swat soldiers don't carry c4's on their chests, how concrete walls would never be smashed by fists (unless it's a giant), how having a working, upgraded and solid vehicle like the truck would make you king of the apocalypse. Oh and how it's unrealistic that you build a literally concrete house on your own, with metal bars and all the fancy stuff. You can pull these pretty easily out of your back pocket.

But you did make unnecessary references to the real word in your first post. I just followed suit. I count the word "realistic" 3 times in that first post of yours. But ok, lets assume that was a mistake (even though you use it again in this post to defend your A16 design) and you just were equating A16 with realism, since it seems emulating A16 is what you really want, right?

What you claim is that A16 is a sort of standard that the game has to keep. Because some design in A16 worked it has to work now too? Hey what about a design that worked in A12? Does that need to work in A19 as well?

Generally nearly everything worked in A16, because A16 was trivially easy, a pole you sat upon made in 2 minutes was already enough for the first hordes.

PS: I build a base later in A17, (after some AI bug fixes and balances) with catwalks that worked, with two block thick walls that actually held them off and led them to an open corridor. I can show you very different base designs I all made in A17, all worked. And sometimes I made a mistake I had to fix for the next horde night and that worked as well.

PPS: I build a base for the first two horde nights out of a derelict wood shack in A19 and it held up admirably. In SP I always use POIs I adapt slowly to my end-game horde base because it adds variety to my designs.

 

[beerfly]

True, I try to entertain people too. But it doesn't effect how I play. I just edit the boring stuff out.

But "showing off" doesn't really mean proving anything I think.

IMO showing off is more like "hey! look what I can do! Isn't that neat!?!"

LIke BMX guys doing tricks, Stunt pilots, Pool trick shot artist's, etc.

Usually showing off ended badly for me mostly with my BMX, It is about showing skills AND having fun. As in 7dtd  Well said. 

 

[Adam the Waster]

if i had a shot for each time someone says "nerd polling" i would have gone through 9,012,234,00 livers 

 

[madmole]

The district border is right between them.

Both districts were required to have their own fire station but for improved efficiency and cooperation they built them next to each other.

Seems like an easy fix with tagging. Anyhow it is on the roadmap.

 

[FileMachete]

Sure hope I don't get Covid and die cause I'll be going straight down... For I have Sinned!

I spent day 18 and 19 running a Shotgun Factory. (really liked that even though I spent the night at home and returned, the cleared areas were still zed free)

Made it to the Rewards with 1 empty backpack slot.

Thought about running back through the maze, while I looked down at my minibike in the parking lot...

Said, F that. and took various dros to get down, emptied what I could into minibike and then nerdpoled back up to the top to get the good dtuff.

It's wrong, but I was thinking of all these posts and laughing all the way :biggrin1:

...but as I had just started down I saw glowing eyes below me...

and then the sound of a block breaking

then I was falling

Crack Cruntch Squish!

lying there with bones sticking out, blood spurting, wondering what the hell had happened...

then I saw him. Mr. Claws was admiring his razor sharp weapons, then he looked me in the eye for a few seconds, stood up turned and walked off into the dusk, tail held high.

no more multiplayer with kitty! :scared:

 

[madmole]

Quick question, can zombie loot bags be destroyed?

Probably best to just get one to spawn then toss grenades or empty an m60 into it and find out yourself rather than go by rumors and theories.

 

[MechanicalLens]

Seems like an easy fix with tagging. Anyhow it is on the roadmap.

I don't usually advocate for realism, but I find it slightly odd that barns can be found in towns. What are your thoughts on making barns outback POI spawns only? (This is less of a point of criticism and more of a slight nitpick.)

Probably best to just get one to spawn then toss grenades or empty an m60 into it and find out yourself rather than go by rumors and theories.

True, I admit I was being a bit lazy there.

Edit: I've confirmed that gun fire, molotovs, grenades, etc. do not damage zombie loot bags (and if they do, it requires a tremendous amount of firepower), but rocket HE ammo will eliminate them. I'm quite busy today so I don't have time to test demolisher explosions and TNT right now, but I assume they will achieve identical results to the block-destructive rocket HE ammo.

 

[madmole]

if they remove 'E' pick up on frames it will at least cost the player those resources. If they made it so the frames could stack only so high before it collapses that would limit them too. Like MM said, he could make a staircase out of marble to the roof it he wanted but at least it would cost him those resources to do it. Also someone can come along and knock it down. Zeds climbing frames is a great idea combined with what I've mentioned. They have the idea that the drone can do the building that you would need nerd polling for. Its all about discouraging. Honestly the cherry on top would be that unbuilt frames can't hold wait but I can't see MM letting that one happen.

Edit: If I can do it on the hardest of the hard I can't see why people can't start learning how on adventure or whatever you feel your skill lvl is. Anyway, probably going to get a hand slap for bring it up again.

Nerd poling will not matter if you need a key from a zombie to unlock the loot chest. You'll have to go through the whole POI and hit a certain number of volumes before the special one spawns. We haven't done this yet, but it was talked about. Taking out nerd poling is a futile action because you can build ladders etc. Take out the incentive to nerd pole, problem solved.

 

[Kalen]

Nerd poling, if you've been playing long enough you've probably figured out that having frames on your tool belt is an excellent way to evade zombies. Run up to the side of a building nerd pol up high where they can't get you and rain hell on them till they are dead. Congratulation you pretty much just beat the game using this tactic everywhere until you get enough exp, perks, and weapons to grow some balls and take them on the right way. The more realistic emmersive way. You bat way above your average using that tactic, anyone can beat the game on the hardest difficulty/speed doing that. Take a way the frame and play the game like a man. #$%^#'s! :boxing2:

So the problem isn't necessarily nerd poling, its that you don't like people finding ways to avoid zombies?    Because people could just as easily do what you're saying using 2 columns of frames..... or even concrete blocks if you don't like the re-usability of frames.    So removing nerd poling wouldn't really accomplish what you''re complaining about here.

Then there is the problems on multiplayer, loot rooms being short cut to and raided with minimal fighting with zeds, being able to nerd pol to the sky and 'oh$&%drops' into the fortified perimeter of someone base. If you read what I said about security and using the solar panel, pretty much a waste of money when someone can just fall out of the sky with nothing to lose and hack it apart. Not specifically multiplayer but blocking doorways with frames un-upgraded, the cheesy base designs and exploits it helps create. I can come up with more reasons and have. It all goes back to %$&*# tactics.

Again, not really a nerd poling issue, as this can be accomplished without nerd poling.

When the game is definitely playable without the frame and all its power. I'm playing Permadeath on Insane Nightmare with 25% loot 64 zed horde nights and doing just fine without it. There is no reason why anyone else should need it on a lower difficulty. Play at the level you think your at without it, its way more rewarding. Everything you do with the frame legitimately is do-able without the frame. 

If it came between me dieing or nerd poling up a wall to get away I'd rather die cause I wouldn't feel like a $##^& afterwards.

Ok, so this really clarifies your point.... it's not nerd poling thats the issue.... you don't like wooden frames.   Just because you can pick them up?    So you probably feel the same way about hay bales or rebar?     No offence, but this sounds an awful lot like "Everyone should play my way, because I do it 'right'"  Games don't really work like that.

 

[Laynie]

Nerd poling will not matter if you need a key from a zombie to unlock the loot chest. You'll have to go through the whole POI and hit a certain number of volumes before the special one spawns. We haven't done this yet, but it was talked about. Taking out nerd poling is a futile action because you can build ladders etc. Take out the incentive to nerd pole, problem solved.

I love the key idea. 

So the problem isn't necessarily nerd poling, its that you don't like people finding ways to avoid zombies?    Because people could just as easily do what you're saying using 2 columns of frames..... or even concrete blocks if you don't like the re-usability of frames.    So removing nerd poling wouldn't really accomplish what you''re complaining about here.

Again, not really a nerd poling issue, as this can be accomplished without nerd poling.

Ok, so this really clarifies your point.... it's not nerd poling thats the issue.... you don't like wooden frames.   Just because you can pick them up?    So you probably feel the same way about hay bales or rebar?     No offence, but this sounds an awful lot like "Everyone should play my way, because I do it 'right'"  Games don't really work like that.

Can I get an Amen? AAAAAMEN. Well said!

 

[RhinoW]

But you did make unnecessary references to the real word in your first post. I just followed suit. I count the word "realistic" 3 times in that first post of yours. But ok, lets assume that was a mistake (even though you use it again in this post to defend your A16 design) and you just were equating A16 with realism, since it seems emulating A16 is what you really want, right?

What you claim is that A16 is a sort of standard that the game has to keep. Because some design in A16 worked it has to work now too? Hey what about a design that worked in A12? Does that need to work in A19 as well?

Generally nearly everything worked in A16, because A16 was trivially easy, a pole you sat upon made in 2 minutes was already enough for the first hordes.

PS: I build a base later in A17, (after some AI bug fixes and balances) with catwalks that worked, with two block thick walls that actually held them off and led them to an open corridor. I can show you very different base designs I all made in A17, all worked. And sometimes I made a mistake I had to fix for the next horde night and that worked as well.

PPS: I build a base for the first two horde nights out of a derelict wood shack in A19 and it held up admirably. In SP I always use POIs I adapt slowly to my end-game horde base because it adds variety to my designs.

I used the world realistic to separate the base designs in cause from the slaughterhouses players build, I believe that was fairly obvious. As in, something that someone could live in (not necessarily real life) and have permanent entrances, not entrances that you get to by placing down 2 frames and removing them, but anyways.

Well, my first base in A19 was made from the destroyed house PoI with the water filled basement (has an ammunition box inside the water) and was holding up pretty well, until zombies "found" a weakness (literally the same blocks throughout the whole house, but these were slightly damaged) in the opposing side where they were originally coming from, and their hive mind AI simply sent them into attacking those 2 single blocks. 

And no, not everything has to work, but practical things that look good and are built to protect, should continue to be viable strategies. The example you said "pole sat on", is one of the things that in fact YOU SHOULD remove...Oh and i did have working designs on A17 and A18, otherwise I probably wouldn't be playing the game. The point here is not to see what works, but to ask yourself why don't the others work, when they obviously should? I'm not putting in cause the bases that work, that has never been my point, I merely questioned why do they keep working, but the others don't.

Oh and when you have double walls, triple, quadruple, you really SHOULD have it working. But as for someone who is putting concrete walls simply to direct them to the BIG *SS open entrance and mitigate focused damage, it's kinda frustrating when they prefer to break 2 blocks instead of going through an open area with traps (yes, zombies don't know what traps are) or each attack different spots at the same time.

But hey, each to their own, i'll make my own final judgments when the game finally comes out.

 

[redneckraccoon]

The way I see it, nerd poling ain't that big an issue. The people that "cheat" will get to late game stage much faster and become bored. If they become bored with the game faster they leave faster, while I get to continue to appreciate the game with others that are still playing without shortcuts. If it's a solo game they're playing, what's the point of the argument at all? I think the zombie/ key idea is perfect if it could be added in. 

 

[Kalen]

Nerd poling will not matter if you need a key from a zombie to unlock the loot chest. You'll have to go through the whole POI and hit a certain number of volumes before the special one spawns. We haven't done this yet, but it was talked about. Taking out nerd poling is a futile action because you can build ladders etc. Take out the incentive to nerd pole, problem solved.

So I do like the key idea some of the time.   It would get annoying if it was in every POI.   Additionally, you've built a pretty awesome, fully destructible, voxel world.   I'm a little disappointed that using the fact that the world IS fully destructible to, for example, break into a loot room is being categorized (by some people) as cheating or cheezing and that you're looking for ways to remove that ability.   

Personally, I do the dungeons following the intended path because I find it fun.... but, in my opinion, you shouldn't remove the ability to break your way into the loot room in every POI.  Use this key idea in some of them, not all.