PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Toban]

Do you want me to do the next play though just building from scratch? Will that solidify the point? Cause it is totally realistic to hold up in strong already some what fortified structure, look at walking dead. You don't have to be great like I said or play permadeath just pick a difficulty that works for you and don't use the frame like your life depends on it, like it were any other survival game.

Can I just say that in many other games nerd poling isn't needed for building, and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with needing it in this game to build, I love it personally because it lets me plan out my build.

In Ark, you can fly or stand on a Dino to build tall structures. Conan has much larger blocks and you can climb on the walls. Empyrion you can stand on the floor and build way higher than 7.

And in many of the survival games your base isn't under that much threat that you have to build it to withstand a horde of enemies.

In 7, your base needs to have many overhangs, defensive areas that take a lot of designing. Using frames makes it possible. Taking them away will make designing bases a nightmare. Making it so they are not able to be picked up by pressing E would be more of a pain in the bum having to spend ages knocking them down.

Frames don't cost that much to make, and making it so they cannot be taken down will result in many blocks remaining in the world cluttering servers because people will still nerd pole with blocks that cannot be picked up and then cannot be bothered to take it back down. In other games, servers are cluttered with blocks when people trap Dino's or make structures to get to a treasure map ect. They just leave them there and they only have to press E and delete. If people cannot be bothered to do that, no one is going to go to the effort to destroy Frames. Then the server will run like...(insert naughty word here)

I read something Atomic said and that makes sense. If loot could be in a random spot, that would work better than removing nerd poling. Not that I'm saying that should be done because I'm not a programmer and have no idea how easy/hard that would be to do, or how much more stress that would put on computers.

My point is. Nerd poling needs to stay.

This is all just my opinion and not meant to offend. 

 

[Laynie]

So put an option in the setting for us. Same content, more options, different ways to play. I've got 1555 hours in, I'm told these are rookie numbers yet I'm pretty much getting told I'm too good for this game. Its not just three of us D1G, Guru, who knows who else could do this and moved on to other games because the game lacked the survival challenge to keep them anymore. Why would we want to go on to play multiplayer with people who nerd pol in everything they do. It wouldn't just be us either, eventually people would come around and actually play the game to be like them.

I started reading the post indirectly aimed at me but I all I kept reading metaphorically speaking is "I'll never be ready for the deep end of the pool, these water wings are staying on forever, I'll just mock the big kids that swim there to make me feel better about it."

How the hell have some of you got double and triple my hours and not evolved? But instead become so stubborn and closed minded that you will fight to the death to stop any kind of change.

You can't use restraint on multiplayer, self-control doesn't work there, you're saying 'we' have to limit our game to singleplayer because of this. I can exercise all the will and restraint needed in my singleplayer game but multiplayer lacks the uniform rules and balance, I can't control other peoples will and restraint and asking them nicely doesn't work either.

We've played games where nerd poling isn't a thing. And if you think your sensitive soul is hurt now by people nerd poling, you would be damn right outraged when the server you are playing on, is filled with the clutter of the same players that couldn't stop themselves using nerd poles, placing full blocks in huge towers to just do the same thing you hated before. 

Just my opinion... at this point, don't care if it offends

 

[Toban]

So put an option in the setting for us. Same content, more options, different ways to play. I've got 1555 hours in, I'm told these are rookie numbers yet I'm pretty much getting told I'm too good for this game. Its not just three of us D1G, Guru, who knows who else could do this and moved on to other games because the game lacked the survival challenge to keep them anymore. Why would we want to go on to play multiplayer with people who nerd pol in everything they do. It wouldn't just be us either, eventually people would come around and actually play the game to be like them.

I started reading the post indirectly aimed at me but I all I kept reading metaphorically speaking is "I'll never be ready for the deep end of the pool, these water wings are staying on forever, I'll just mock the big kids that swim there to make me feel better about it."

How the hell have some of you got double and triple my hours and not evolved? But instead become so stubborn and closed minded that you will fight to the death to stop any kind of change.

You can't use restraint on multiplayer, self-control doesn't work there, you're saying 'we' have to limit our game to singleplayer because of this. I can exercise all the will and restraint needed in my singleplayer game but multiplayer lacks the uniform rules and balance, I can't control other peoples will and restraint and asking them nicely doesn't work either.

But removing nerd poling isn't the answer. That's my point. Something better needs to be done if it is a problem. (I'm not saying it is or not) Removing nerd poling would result in more complaints for TFP than people using it to get to loot. 

But, hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[Dethar]

How the hell have some of you got double and triple my hours and not evolved? But instead become so stubborn and closed minded that you will fight to the death to stop any kind of change.

I can tell you why I have 3500 hours since A15. Its exactly what MM says. M@#'s(the word that shall not be spoken of). I have about 10% of those hours in vanilla and most of that is experimental. The other 90% is M@#'s. 

So I totally agree with MM when he says M@# it, and I have never demanded a change or setting.

 

[STyK_]

Can I just say that in many other games nerd poling isn't needed for building, and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with needing it in this game to build, I love it personally because it lets me plan out my build.

In Ark, you can fly or stand on a Dino to build tall structures. Conan has much larger blocks and you can climb on the walls. Empyrion you can stand on the floor and build way higher than 7.

And in many of the survival games your base isn't under that much threat that you have to build it to withstand a horde of enemies.

In 7, your base needs to have many overhangs, defensive areas that take a lot of designing. Using frames makes it possible. Taking them away will make designing bases a nightmare. Making it so they are not able to be picked up by pressing E would be more of a pain in the bum having to spend ages knocking them down.

Frames don't cost that much to make, and making it so they cannot be taken down will result in many blocks remaining in the world cluttering servers because people will still nerd pole with blocks that cannot be picked up and then cannot be bothered to take it back down. In other games, servers are cluttered with blocks when people trap Dino's or make structures to get to a treasure map ect. They just leave them there and they only have to press E and delete. If people cannot be bothered to do that, no one is going to go to the effort to destroy Frames. Then the server will run like...(insert naughty word here)

I read something Atomic said and that makes sense. If loot could be in a random spot, that would work better than removing nerd poling. Not that I'm saying that should be done because I'm not a programmer and have no idea how easy/hard that would be to do, or how much more stress that would put on computers.

My point is. Nerd poling needs to stay.

This is all just my opinion and not meant to offend. 

If they make it so the drone can do the building for you in the equivalent to flying god mod it will be better then nerd poling for building, you won't need it anymore. So the whole crippling building argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. Removing E pick up is not that devastating, use an axe, or whatever the drone will have to remove other blocks you can't pick up. Your even getting some of your wood back.

 

[Laynie]

If they make it so the drone can do the building for you in the equivalent to flying god mod it will be better then nerd poling for building, you won't need it anymore. So the whole crippling building argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. Removing E pick up is not that devastating, use an axe, or whatever the drone will have to remove other blocks you can't pick up. Your even getting some of your wood back.

What about the people who haven't gone down the right lines to make a drone? Do you think they will wait fir a buddy to come build their base? Or in this shiny nerd pole free world do you imagine the dev team going full Oprah Whinfry and giving out drones on day one for all players? "You get a drone, you get a drone, The whole player base gets a drone!" 

Come on @STyK_ be serious. What you are saying would be everyone would have to have a drone pattern or have gone fully into making a drone before the first horde night.... You are just not making good game sense.

 

[STyK_]

I can tell you why I have 3500 hours since A15. Its exactly what MM says. M@#'s(the word that shall not be spoken of). I have about 10% of those hours in vanilla and most of that is experimental. The other 90% is M@#'s. 

So I totally agree with MM when he says M@# it, and I have never demanded a change or setting.

Once you turn off EAC all legitimacy is out the window. I already have issue with balance in vanilla, its not going to be any better in someones mod, in fact its likely to be worse.

 

[Toban]

If they make it so the drone can do the building for you in the equivalent to flying god mod it will be better then nerd poling for building, you won't need it anymore. So the whole crippling building argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. Removing E pick up is not that devastating, use an axe, or whatever the drone will have to remove other blocks you can't pick up. Your even getting some of your wood back.

But, my point was who is going to stand there and remove it? It never happens in games. And I play a lot of other games. Servers are cluttered with peoples remaining structures they cannot be bothered to remove. They are a serious issues to servers.

And when do we get the drone? At the start of the game or? And if you have to spec into it, can you imagine the uproar TFP would get. "Why are you forcing us to spec int?" would be a thousand pages long. I don't even know how hard it would be to program. 

The Drone you use to build in Empyrion is a pain in the...(insert naughty word here) it's so hard to control while building.

I just think if you have an issue with people getting to loot in poi's. Removing nerd poling isn't the fix for that issue. But, this is just my opinion and not meant to cause any offence.

So is anyone else anxious for a stable release?  I still have my fingers crossed that maybe it'll come out tomorrow so I can have some uninterrupted time to play.  Work systems are down tomorrow so I can have play time without feeling guilty.

I'm so ready for stable lol. I want to build my castle! haha

 

[STyK_]

What about the people who haven't gone down the right lines to make a drone? Do you think they will wait fir a buddy to come build their base? Or in this shiny nerd pole free world do you imagine the dev team going full Oprah Whinfry and giving out drones on day one for all players? "You get a drone, you get a drone, The whole player base gets a drone!" 

Come on @STyK_ be serious. What you are saying would be everyone would have to have a drone pattern or have gone fully into making a drone before the first horde night.... You are just not making good game sense.

I have no idea how they are going to lore some of this stuff in but fallout had drone servants in every houses before the nukes. Joel is a pretty big fan of the older fallouts. Have common to find non-weaponized drones. I find power sledges and sell them cause that's not my style, finding a drone for those purposes I'd keep. I'm not trying to back you guys into a corner I'm telling you it can work.

 

[STyK_]

But, my point was who is going to stand there and remove it? It never happens in games. And I play a lot of other games. Servers are cluttered with peoples remaining structures they cannot be bothered to remove. They are a serious issues to servers.

And when do we get the drone? At the start of the game or? And if you have to spec into it, can you imagine the uproar TFP would get. "Why are you forcing us to spec int?" would be a thousand pages long. I don't even know how hard it would be to program. 

The Drone you use to build in Empyrion is a pain in the...(insert naughty word here) it's so hard to control while building.

I just think if you have an issue with people getting to loot in poi's. Removing nerd poling isn't the fix for that issue. But, this is just my opinion and not meant to cause any offence.

I've played other survival games too, they usually have a decay on player made walls ect. outside of a land claim or equivalent. They are already talking about poi's resetting if nobody goes near them for X amount of time. I don't see why chunk clean up is outside the realm of possibility.

Spec wise I just want to be a sneaky prick, build, and eat but its not that simple, I have to spec into every other tree to make it work. Science it at the end of nearly every playthough anyone does unless they are purposefully trying to avoid it to make a point or tired of the same old and purposely forcing a different kind of playthough because of the difficulty of the zeds in higher game stages. You'd just be putting in a point earlier then you normally would.

 

[Laynie]

I have no idea how they are going to lore some of this stuff in but fallout had drone servants in every houses before the nukes. Joel is a pretty big fan of the older fallouts. Have common to find non-weaponized drones. I find power sledges and sell them cause that's not my style, finding a drone for those purposes I'd keep. I'm not trying to back you guys into a corner I'm telling you it can work.

So you wake up butt naked with only the ability to create lvl one items and a note from the guys that took all your sh*t...oh wait they took it all except for your drone. How nice of them. 

It works on fallout, because its already in their story. 

How about this, you outline all your ideas and send them into the dev team. I'm sure if they think it's worthwhile trying to fit crap ideas in to massage your ego, i'm sure they will. I tend to think the answer will be, "we already have enough work to do before gold, so there is no point changing things for a function that already works." 

But hey, you don't know unless you try.

I really do hope you find a way to actually enjoy this game for what it is, instead of looking at the little things that annoy you and coming on here and getting irritated because the changes you want seem so impossible. 

You seem to have a fresh argument every day. I don't wish to argue or be mean, but sometimes you really get my goat   

Enjoy this awesome game. Make suggestions, have good conversations. Try to not take every answer people give you as a personal attack. Most people that talk on here are passionate about this game and want it to be the best it can when it goes gold. What they don't want is the release date to be hung up because of extra stuff not needed inn the game because you can already do it. IE Nerd poles/ difficulty settings and such. My new phone just arrived. I am moving on to more exciting things for now  

Enjoy ranting, its good for the soul.

 

[Toban]

I've played other survival games too, they usually have a decay on player made walls ect. outside of a land claim or equivalent. They are already talking about poi's resetting if nobody goes near them for X amount of time. I don't see why chunk clean up is outside the realm of possibility.

Spec wise I just want to be a sneaky prick, build, and eat but its not that simple, I have to spec into every other tree to make it work. Science it at the end of nearly every playthough anyone does unless they are purposefully trying to avoid it to make a point or tired of the same old and purposely forcing a different kind of playthough because of the difficulty of the zeds in higher game stages. You'd just be putting in a point earlier then you normally would.

Decay is normally more than 7 real life days days on servers. If it is so busy on a server that people are complaining about others nerd poling to get to the loot, the chances of the poi not being visited is slim. It would be an issue up until they decayed. A long time to keep junk blocks around due to lazy people not wanting to destroy them. Go to Atlas forums. They are full of this type of complaint. Ark too and many other games like it.

I understand you wanting it to be tougher to get to the loot, if that is your main concern. But I just don't see the removal of picking up frames the answer.

Regarding the drone, that would still upset players being forced into that line. I use int and well, many of the other skill trees to get what I want, I don't really care about being awesome in one area. But others do and that's fair seen as we have skill trees. But if it I was the pimps, I wouldn't touch the forcing players into a spec with anyone's nerd pole. I just wouldn't. Again, I don't think using a drone to build is the answer.

Can I be clear too, I'm not trying to be confrontational with you or anyone on this topic. Anyone that knows me, know's that I'm just not that type of guy. I'm happy to listen to any idea and some I agree with and some not. This just happens to be one I don't agree with.

 

[RipClaw]

So put an option in the setting for us. Same content, more options, different ways to play.

If an option had been added every time someone came to the forum and asked for something, the menu would be more confusing than the control panel of the apollo command module.

Besides, the developers already have enough work to implement what they have planned. If they granted every request for an option, they would never finish this game.

Wait until the official developer kit of the Fun Pimps is available, then you might be able to build an Anti-Nerdpole mod that works without having to disable EAC.

 

[Demandred1957]

Playing the game on default settings is perfectly fine for the typical gamer I've seen play the game. I can easily take over a POI and survive just fine, but I want the challenge of being forced to build stuff, which makes the game harder, so I turn down AI block damage to suit the challenge I want.

I have ZERO interest in permadeath. I play games to have fun. Not to be stressed out that one death will mean the end to my world.

It makes me laugh every time someone expects me to be great at a game I've worked on. I'm an average gamer and die a lot at any game I play. Knowing how the code works does nothing for my reflexes and attention when playing a game. On any reasonably sized game team, you have great players, horrible players and those in between.

Ok fair enough. Then let me restate the challenge in a different way..

Anybody that wants to make the game even harder, should play with that restriction for a month before putting those changes forward. (looking at you Madmole)

Be singing a different tune when you have been working on your castle for a month, and you have to delete your save because you bought it.

Personally feel anybody on the forum that's complaining about how it's not challenging enough needs to do the same thing.

When Death actually means something in the game, it makes the world 500% more challenging and terrifying.

"oh, but i'm waiting for stable because of bugs before I do that"

Yeah yeah, excuses are like @%$*#!s everybody's got one, and they all stink.

Lol, on how it auto corrected a word to make it look like I was cussing, when I wasn't..

What is this? kindergarten?

 

[RhinoW]

If an option had been added every time someone came to the forum and asked for something, the menu would be more confusing than the control panel of the apollo command module.

Besides, the developers already have enough work to implement what they have planned. If they granted every request for an option, they would never finish this game.

Wait until the official developer kit of the Fun Pimps is available, then you might be able to build an Anti-Nerdpole mod that works without having to disable EAC.

That's a bit over the top. Adding a UI button + an event is super easy on Unity and doesn't take more than 2 minutes. I think so far I've only seen people asking for permadeath death option, and me asking for Zombie and Player damage/health scalers. So, 3 options in total, one of them being pretty straight forward to add. And the UI is based on drop down lists with pages, so no where in the world will that ever be confusing.

Of course,  I agree that there are priorities, but let's not make this seem like such a huge burden.

 

[RhinoW]

I really want to get to the heart of what you are saying here, but most of this is either just untrue or highly exaggerated to the point I can't see it.
I do play this game, as so do obviously everyone else here... and this is simply not the case.
What I do get is you have the same concerns as I do, but blowing things out of proportion isn't going to help others see eye to eye on those concerns. 

No, it's not untrue mate, i'm not exaggerating. I don't use hyperboles unless I know what I am talking about. 

Making a wall around your base means you have an extra chance per block, that they will choose another block. But in the end, whenever a block takes 10% damage or has a bit less health than another. All of the zombies will focus on it, so yeah you can spam repair it, but that's not really the point of making fortress walls now is it?

Keeping true to a PoI's design and making it efficient is one hell of a fun task, but you literally have to think about how the AI pathing works (so new players are completely out of the equation) so you know exactly what path they will take, and that has only work so far in my A18 base (after A17 AI update)  on the elementary school base....because I literally had no block (besides spikes and blade traps bla bla) on the front entrance, and in the end, the base worked like a tower defense game, where I had multiple base defense stages inside (and yeah it was hella fun, until demolishers started appearing), but this is only because I knew how the pathing worked, a newer player will have a hard time if he goes by common sense.

Your best common sense is still staying on top of a building and waiting, getting on top of a building and shooting them down through your "floor" iron bars, or hoping on unrealistic killing houses that exploit the AI (which is not wrong and doesn't affect me, it's just a different playstyle that keeps getting more and more worshipped). 

My point is, the zombies are getting smarter and smarter, rendering a lot of previously decent bases, useless. And the player character is not even picking up the pace if the players want to play realistically (which forces people to use cheap tactics, bloodmoon "bases"  and those that don't want to use em, get screwed), again, staying on top of the roof is pretty one of the last few realistic and solid choices.

Oh and zombies now swim faster than you, let that sink in, because they won't anymore.

 

[meganoth]

Do you want me to do the next play though just building from scratch? Will that solidify the point? Cause it is totally realistic to hold up in strong already some what fortified structure, look at walking dead. You don't have to be great like I said or play permadeath just pick a difficulty that works for you and don't use the frame like your life depends on it, like it were any other survival game.

The point you are making is irrelevant to the nerdpole question. You seem to be trying to prove that the game can be won without nerdpoling on hardest settings? Someone playing this game to build a good looking fortress and have a fun time defending it against zombies in a non-competitive way will simply shrug and ask "So what?"

So put an option in the setting for us. Same content, more options, different ways to play. I've got 1555 hours in, I'm told these are rookie numbers yet I'm pretty much getting told I'm too good for this game. Its not just three of us D1G, Guru, who knows who else could do this and moved on to other games because the game lacked the survival challenge to keep them anymore. Why would we want to go on to play multiplayer with people who nerd pol in everything they do. It wouldn't just be us either, eventually people would come around and actually play the game to be like them.

I started reading the post indirectly aimed at me but I all I kept reading metaphorically speaking is "I'll never be ready for the deep end of the pool, these water wings are staying on forever, I'll just mock the big kids that swim there to make me feel better about it."

How the hell have some of you got double and triple my hours and not evolved? But instead become so stubborn and closed minded that you will fight to the death to stop any kind of change.

You can't use restraint on multiplayer, self-control doesn't work there, you're saying 'we' have to limit our game to singleplayer because of this. I can exercise all the will and restraint needed in my singleplayer game but multiplayer lacks the uniform rules and balance, I can't control other peoples will and restraint and asking them nicely doesn't work either.

I agree, an option could be a solution that would make you, Jonah and (surprise) Roland happy. Developers don't like to add options early in development because optional features have to be supported and tested all through the rest of development and fill up the GUI. But at the moment it is mostly you arguing for, and dozens of people arguing against it, which fills up the forum but is not really showing great demand for your option.

What you call water wings is a different playstyle and evolving into different directions. For a player like Toban the goal probably is not to go up the difficulty ladder to become like you, he likes to build. His goal will probably be to build a castle to top Castle Neuschwanstein, not to survive on 25% loot.

Even if someone has the goal to make the game more and more difficult and loose the water wings, he might like to do that without making building a chore. Most people playing 7D2D don't have to prove anything to their audience, they don't have one to begin with. (Just to be sure, this is not a critique between the lines, it just means you put yourself into a situation practically no one else is in)

 

[MechanicalLens]

But removing nerd poling isn't the answer. That's my point. Something better needs to be done if it is a problem. (I'm not saying it is or not) Removing nerd poling would result in more complaints for TFP than people using it to get to loot. 

But, hey, that's just my opinion.

You know, this part of the conversation never gets brought up, and is usually ignored, including the user who acknowledges it. I'm willing to wager that at least HALF of prefabs have their loot room at ground level or in a basement; removing nerdpoling isn't a one size fits all scenario. Just saying.

 

[Toban]

You know, this part of the conversation never gets brought up, and is usually ignored, including the user who acknowledges it. I'm willing to wager that at least HALF of prefabs have their loot room at ground level or in a basement; removing nerdpoling isn't a one size fits all scenario. Just saying.

Agreed. I don't see how removing it helps either. And I like to go through the houses myself. That's why I play the game. Oh...and to build my castles. Jk, wait no it's not. I do like to build my castles lol.

 

[Demandred1957]

Most people playing 7D2D don't have to prove anything to their audience, they don't have one to begin with.

I don't think most of the people with a audience even, are trying to prove anything.

I have a small audience, and I know I'm not trying to prove anything. I just decided to start sharing my gameplay, because why not?

Same with Glock9, he's just having a good time as far as I can tell.