PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Daruma]

Doesn’t matter what the percentage is. It’s just a big group of people who have the wrong idea of what the game is and thought that the unfinished state was representative of the game.

Turn zombies off and now the game is a fun building game where your creations are safe. 

Lol. News flash...its still unfinished. And people have that idea because that's how the game was billed. And yeah - the percentage of users with that mindset does kind of matter.  

And I don't want to turn the zombies off. That skates around the entire point. Myself and a lot of other people enjoyed building bases to ride out hordes. Expanding those bases. Tunneling from those bases to other resources rich areas to avoid the onslaught. That's what was fun for us. Don't build the support structure correctly? Cave in and you lose all your hard work. 

There have been additions and removals from the game seemingly to counter specific gameplay styles. Styles that were valid.  That has the effect of alienating people with those gameplay styles. That's literally all I'm saying. And I'm not a 2% minority. 

Hey, at least on console it can't get better.. but it won't get any worse.

 

[katarynna]

There have been additions and removals from the game seemingly to counter specific gameplay styles. Styles that were valid.

Styles that you feel are valid are not necessarily styles that tfp feel are valid.

They did not feel that 100% safety, that could be achieved in the first 10 minutes of the game btw, was valid. They want there to be threats no matter where you are or what you are doing. So while underground bases are still valid, they are not guaranteed 100% safe.

There have been additions and removals from the game seemingly to counter specific gameplay styles.

You see it as the developers trying to defeat the players. I think they are just trying to move the game forward towards their final vision, which includes changing things that guarantee safety. They don't want the game to have "safe spaces". If you need one to enjoy the game, mods or quitting are your answers.

 

[Daruma]

Doesn’t matter what the percentage is. It’s just a big group of people who have the wrong idea of what the game is and thought that the unfinished state was representative of the game.

Turn zombies off and now the game is a fun building game where your creations are safe. 

I wasn’t trying to invalidate any criticism. I was trying to correct your inaccurate representation of why zombies dig in the game today. I thought I was very straightforward about that. 
 

The other criticisms are valid in that they surely represent disappointments with the game. They also show a lack of understanding about what type of game this was going to be. 

Then we have to disagree on that last point. The description sounded to me like it was meant to be a zombie survival building game. The dev even seemed to agree with that description in my earlier post. What it has turned into is a run and gun shooter with some (really unnecessarily) building aspects. 

Styles that you feel are valid are not necessarily styles that tfp feel are valid.

They did not feel that 100% safety, that could be achieved in the first 10 minutes of the game btw, was valid. They want there to be threats no matter where you are or what you are doing. So while underground bases are still valid, they are not guaranteed 100% safe.

You see it as the developers trying to defeat the players. I think they are just trying to move the game forward towards their final vision, which includes changing things that guarantee safety. They don't want the game to have "safe spaces". If you need one to enjoy the game, mods or quitting are your answers.

It's not that they're not guaranteed 100% safe - they're completely untenable at this point. 

And what you said basically echoed my criticisms about dictating play styles. 

 

[katarynna]

Many, many people manage to build and defend their buildings just fine.

And no, what I said was they are and have been working towards their vision of the game. It is not a matter of dictating playstyles. It is a matter of finishing the game according to their vision, which includes players having threats to deal with everywhere they are. It is certainly possible that what they have in mind for the release version of the game will not be something you enjoy. That doesn't mean they are targeting you and your playstyle. They are building the game they have had in mind all along.

 

[Daruma]

I think they are just trying to move the game forward towards their final vision, which includes changing things that guarantee safety. They don't want the game to have "safe spaces". If you need one to enjoy the game, mods or quitting are your answers.

^ So yeah.. strategically creating core mechanic modifications that actively defeat certain play styles. Working against the player.

 

[katarynna]

Fixing what they consider to be exploits of the ai behavior

 

[Daruma]

Fixing what they consider to be exploits of the ai behavior

Lol. I don't think that means what you think it means.

A zombie shouldn't walk through a corn maze  to attack a piece of wall with 2% less HP then the wall directly in front of them. Which the player is standing directly behind. 

A zombie also shouldn't be able to dig 50 feet below the ground with the speed of a formula 1 race car and crash through a double thick brick wall like it was made of drywall.. but hey, if we're giving them the ability to deduce structural integrity to a degree that would make a Civil Engineer jealous.. why not?

And yes. The fact that I paid for this game, just as you have, gives me every right to criticize core gameplay changes. It's easy to say you have no right to complain because a game is in alpha when it's been in alpha for 7 years. I mean how many alpha releases can you have before the baseball mercy rule kicks in and they just force you to move to beta?

 

[Daruma]

Many, many people manage to build and defend their buildings just fine.

And no, what I said was they are and have been working towards their vision of the game. It is not a matter of dictating playstyles. It is a matter of finishing the game according to their vision, which includes players having threats to deal with everywhere they are. It is certainly possible that what they have in mind for the release version of the game will not be something you enjoy. That doesn't mean they are targeting you and your playstyle. They are building the game they have had in mind all along.

Hey - this is all friendly criticism. Like I've said numerous times, I love the game.

But if working toward their vision means catering to one play style or penalizing another, they are in fact targeting specific play styles they don't want to see. There are other ways to encourage particular styles without completely invalidating another.

Give higher rewards to those willing to explore and loot more. But let me live in my massive underground complex that I spent 70 hours creating like the mole person I am.

 

[Pegasus]

...

The game is completely balanced around the second group, you literally can't even function as the first group anymore as of a few alpha ago. You can't build anything end game without materials you are unable to make yourself. So even the players that want to be a den mother and stay at home mining or building are required to go play CoD Zombies and run around shooting stuff to get magic uncraftable parts and springs.

...

Sure you can.  Run out and wrench cars ... run away from zombies ... sneak in and look cabinets and stuff ... run away from zombies.  It's quite viable.  Even if you want to be a builder you still have to go out and get food.  So get your springs and such while you're getting food.  Or turn the zombies off and loot to your heart's content.  

Even the shooters still need to build something, somewhere to keep their loot and extra ammo.  The builders might have to shoot something at some point otherwise the zombies are gonna eat their house.  

Or, if you're the den mother ... stay at home and send your little minions out to kill things and bring you back stuff.  I do it all the time ... hey guys, while you are looting, bring me back X ... if you discard X and I find out about it, your next batch of food is gonna contain a laxative....

I have had them fetching things like paint and potted plants (why build them when someone can fetch them for you?).

It's all viable ... it's just a matter of how you look at it.

Btw, those king size beds, bed frames and office chairs are all awesome sources of springs.  Up your destructo skill and grab a decent impact driver and you have springs for days ... vault doors and draw bridges galore.

 

[P0yzin]

I'm sorry "Daruma" or w/e your name is.... but if you don't like it... leave... lmfao it's that ez. No need to be rude to TFP when it comes to THEIR game!!!! We are the ones willing to support them and buy their product no matter the state and help keep it moving and progressing because there are aspects of it that we enjoy. It doesn't have to be perfect. As a matter of fact, perfect is boring. We appreciate the fact that after all this time, they are still willing to put their efforts into trying to please as many of us as possible and still show us their vision. NAME ONE GAME IN HISTORY that does not cater to specific play styles!!!! L M F A O.... an argument like that is literally moot....it means nothing to anyone and there would be no reason to find "validity" in such a statement. Are you trying to be "right" about something???? cuz at this point it seems like a pointless argument. LOL  Just enjoy the game and lets encourage TFP and the community! You can put forward suggestions, of course, but enough of the "pointing fingers" and such. Get real bud. Lmfao. Ok that's my rant..... HAVE FUN!!!!!... again "Daruma" HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!

 

[Pegasus]

The problem is that players cannot use the hi res models.

It might not be your problem because you might not care, but its a problem some players have, and they are entitled to think of it as a problem as much as you are entitled to not care.

Its not a big issue for me, im not invested in it personally, but i like to think of possible solutions to problems, so i presented him with a possible solution. The solution i offered would allow players access to the hi res items while restricting them from bogging down servers by building a 50x50 base from nothing but hi res bookshelves. Thats probably what a compromise for that problem will have to look like outside of everyone just getting better hardware.

I dont think the rule would be that hard to enforce, land claims cant overlap, we are restricted to one per game atm, and replacing them with junk if the land claim is removed means that the whole base wont collapse if they were being used to support the base.

If you decide you want to give players access to hi res items, then consider this as an option. If not, then dont worry about it. 

You're forgetting about multiplayer servers ... which can have more than one land claim, and allied land claims can overlap.

You presented a possible solution to an issue that doesn't exist. They are not adding the deco items into the game as recipes at this point. 

You may or may not remember the crafting menu lag from before they simplified the crafting menus, but I do ... and I don't see them willingly going back to that because the public outcry over the game crashes caused by too many recipes was waaaaay worse than this little discussion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion ... and I can even understand it.  (which is why i play on a modded server, so I can have my pretty stuff).  You, too, can play on a modded server and have your pretties.

But it's not going to happen in the vanilla game right now ... so why keep arguing about who is more right?

Girls, you're all pretty.  Can't we just move on now?

 

[FileMachete]

I don't have a dog in the digging zed fight, so take this as you will.

The one thing they _could_ have set them to do that would have had me looking for a pitch fork, they didn't; if zeds chose to dig under your walls and pop up inside your base.

Worth considering that thought for those that really do think TFPs go out of their way to screw the players.

Also I've never had a zed come to my walls, notice I'm in the basement, and then start digging down. They always try to get through the walls, even when the cheapest path would be to dig down then through a basement wall. Guessing, but that likely took extra work to prevent.

When the digging came back I built a couple underground bases with 'roof top' defenses (those still being 10m underground, not on the surface). Design challenge wise it was a fun test. Hint: if anyone decides to build one, consider stacking a few floors on top of each other rather than a sprawling single story bunker.

I also ran a test in a17exp where I was down about 35? blocks from surface, and then just kept tunneling horizontally during horde night. Zeds never came close to catching up. Killing them in the morning was a pain, really needed explosives as they were stuck about 20 blocks down, even though they'd made decent sideways distance.

That said, if it were just a simple snap of the fingers and 'poof!' magically there was a "Zeds can only hear and dig to x meters" slider, then, "snap". All's well

 

[Pegasus]

I don't have a dog in the digging zed fight, so take this as you will.

The one thing they _could_ have set them to do that would have had me looking for a pitch fork, they didn't; if zeds chose to dig under your walls and pop up inside your base.

Worth considering that thought for those that really do think TFPs go out of their way to screw the players.

Also I've never had a zed come to my walls, notice I'm in the basement, and then start digging down. They always try to get through the walls, even when the cheapest path would be to dig down then through a basement wall. Guessing, but that likely took extra work to prevent.

When the digging came back I built a couple underground bases with 'roof top' defenses (those still being 10m underground, not on the surface). Design challenge wise it was a fun test. Hint: if anyone decides to build one, consider stacking a few floors on top of each other rather than a sprawling single story bunker.

I also ran a test in a17exp where I was down about 35? blocks from surface, and then just kept tunneling horizontally during horde night. Zeds never came close to catching up. Killing them in the morning was a pain, really needed explosives as they were stuck about 20 blocks down, even though they'd made decent sideways distance.

That said, if it were just a simple snap of the fingers and 'poof!' magically there was a "Zeds can only hear and dig to x meters" slider, then, "snap". All's well

I do miss them falling to their deaths and going splat....  i used to have a fun time digging zed splatter holes and then just dancing around the edge and letting them fall in and squish on the bottom.  (Well, me being me, that usually lasted a couple game hours then I'd lose my footing and fall in and go splat too ... but for someone with actual coordination it would be a fun strategy.)

 

[P0yzin]

P.S. - I think proof of age should be required when posting in forums. Lol.

At least we could know who's statements to take with a grain of salt and those who were actually up for serious consideration. Lmfao.

Am I right or am I right? I swear, all this "nit picking" sounds like the tantrums of toddlers at times!  

NOTE TO SNOWFLAKES - Make your own damn game so you can cry at will as much as you want!!!! This is about zombies and survival, not the faint of heart or mind. Get it through your soon to be crushed skulls u numbnuts. Nit pick the f**&#$ nose after you crush it with your club AND ENJOY THAT YOU CAN!!!! Holy hell it's like babysitting around here isn't it?! lmfao.

 

[FileMachete]

I do miss them falling to their deaths and going splat....  i used to have a fun time digging zed splatter holes and then just dancing around the edge and letting them fall in and squish on the bottom.  (Well, me being me, that usually lasted a couple game hours then I'd lose my footing and fall in and go splat too ... but for someone with actual coordination it would be a fun strategy.)

heh heh, yeah, I did a few of those as well. I liked to set up electric fences a couple blocks down from the top, create a slight angle by having one post on the central base but then angle across the gap to a post recessed into the outer wall, so they wouldn't wind up standing on the posts, then it was like an electricfied falling zed meteor storm.

 

[madmole]

A lot of the folks who funded the kickstarter seem to disagree with you. Google it. They're kinda all over the place. 

I  haven't been asking for polygon coffee makers. I ask devs to not make sweeping changes that break the reason I bought the game. And if that's where it's going, I'm fine with that. I'll move on. The issue is a lot of people (again, Google it) saw the 'bug' of zombies not being able to dig like a backhoe as a game mechanic - not a bug. And to those, it's sudden addition seems like the devs playing a bad joke - not fixing a bug. 

7 Days is a mediocre shooter. As more than one review points out and PC Gamer puts very well, "The combat feels like an early Elder Scrolls game. There's lots of clicking and flailing without ever feeling like you're making any contact with the thing you are flailing at." And I know that is an article from 2016, but seeing as the game is still in alpha and has been since 2013, I think it should have some bearing.

It's an amazing building/crafting survival game with the potential to be the best in the genre. It's just my opinion, but it should stick to it's strengths. 

The combat has been improved and completely redone from scratch since 2016, so whatever was written then is irrelevant.

What does zombies digging have to do with shooting or building mechanics? So, don't  focus on what sucks and improve what is already good/ I don't see the logic. Sorry but we want all aspects of the game to feel polished and well done, focusing on what sucks is the right call, and is done so what is the problem?

All I'm really seeing is some people got mad zombies can dig to their base. Yet you can mod that out in 2 seconds or just not have hordes at all. People are always mad about something, but we have to make the game how we envisioned it. It just so happens the engine we started with had building done already but very poor combat/ai so obviously we had to improve those things.

The game is not centered around builders. There's basically two main groups of players, those that want to build and mine and play "Adult Minecraft", and those that want to play "Survival builder CoD Zombies" and run around shooting stuff.

The game is completely balanced around the second group, you literally can't even function as the first group anymore as of a few alpha ago. You can't build anything end game without materials you are unable to make yourself. So even the players that want to be a den mother and stay at home mining or building are required to go play CoD Zombies and run around shooting stuff to get magic uncraftable parts and springs.

The current approach is basically focused on the looter shooter types, with a bit of builder stuff on the side if it fits, but the actual balance is 100% on the run and gun players. You can function completely without being a builder or crafter at all and never doing more than making a wood block with a bed and storage chest on it and doing nothing but missions and run and gun 24/7. You can't do the same without cheat mode if you just plan to build and mine and stuff. There's not a single craftable only item that I know of that can't be found in loot or bought from a trader, but like 90% of the end game stuff is uncraftable without loot only items.

Not weighing in on the rest of your message or opinions, just saying, you are of the wrong mindset right off the bat, like a lot of people on this forum which is what causes the disgruntlement and friction. People keep asking for coffee pots and more paint options and builder items, because they are of the Adult Minecraft group of players, but they aren't the target market at the moment and don't realize that.

Might change in the future, might not, just depends on how the market statistics go. Builders very well might be in the minority, or just might not be the target market at all even if they are in the majority.

More hyperbole. You can craft everything in the game without looting. Sell your ingots and crafted things, ores to the trader for parts or guns, then scrap them and build top end stuff. Most stuff is crafted via mining and a bit of salvaging, which I don't see why going down the road and harvesting cars is such an inconvenience. Sorry you can't sit at bedrock and be the end game guru and hand out candy to your friends without working for it at least a little bit.

 

[madmole]

Will lower tiers give lesser rewards than higher tiers generally?

The current system is way more interesting in choices in my opinion. However having some increased range in the stats of tools when you craft them might be more fun. So instead of crafting 7000 stone axes to get a better one you would craft several at times if you get bad rolls. Maybe that's a bad idea though, just thinking it might end up being fun. You could find a top tier weapon with lower stats than a lower tier on rare occasions which will make finding that perfect weapon much more interesting than just finding quality 1-6 and how many mods you can fit. Only thing is higher tier stuff would have to be a noticeable step up on average in terms of stats so that RNG does weigh in favor of it being an upgrade. Right now I vaguely remember seeing some people argue that lower tier stuff may be better in particular with snipers.

I thought Gazz said it already is this way, player crafted items have random stats, at least once you get to iron.

 

[madmole]

More to my point, recent Reddit quote from someone returning to the game after the current patch:

"Are zombies still omniscient with PhDs in Civil Engineering and Physics?"

Edited to add a few more quoted criticisms:

"It used to be a fun crafting/survival game with zombies. Now it's a scramble-to-survive run-and-shoot against corpse-like meth heads."

"In what universe can an uncoordinated, brainless, reanimated corpse hone in on an underground dwelling survivor and dig through stone to find them?"

"Hmmm.. we could go through the portcullis on a headfirst charge, oorrr we COULD run around to the back left corner, hit the rampart by the mountain, knock it over and do a triple back flip off the side to gain entrance on the roof. THEN we could GPS to exactly 0.234455/-1.340499 and dig through the roof! That will land us in the hallway where we can attack that pesky human from behind!"

^ Lol. I feel like I'm reading Tumblr memes, but it's about craziness of the upgraded zombie AI.

"I stopped playing as soon as zombies started digging. Zombies shouldn't be able to dig. And if I want to build an underground complex to avoid them I should be perfectly capable of that. Having the developer intentionally make them dig to counter player builds feels like the developer is intentionally playing the game against us by changing the rules."

And probably the most valid criticism:

"I've gotten the impression that the devs only added the ability to build because other games have it, but want to turn it into more of a run and shoot."

So... it's definitely not just me. And I wouldn't try to lock it down to 2% of the community either. 

Funny, I could post thousands of positive reviews about the direction the game is going in. Sorry but people fall in love with various incomplete versions along the way and then they get mad. I don't care, neither should you because we're headed where we need to.  Turn horde night off, problem solved. Mod in a damage multiplier of 0 to dirt on zombies, problem solved. I just don't see the fuss when there are easy ways to have the same type of game. Did you just like the zombies beating the dirt above your base or something? I don't understand how turning off hordes is different than them incapable of digging.

 

[MechanicalLens]

I thought Gazz said it already is this way, player crafted items have random stats, at least once you get to iron.

I'll go into a creative test world in a bit and see if I can confirm that.

 

[Gazz]

The game is not centered around builders. There's basically two main groups of players, those that want to build and mine and play "Adult Minecraft", and those that want to play "Survival builder CoD Zombies" and run around shooting stuff.

In Minecraft you can't have everything without ever leaving your house and the attached mine.