PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[RhinoW]

It means exactly what I said before.

You testing and rating every weapon based on how well they support your preferred play style does not mean that overall balance must be adjusted to make every weapon equally valid for this situation. Some have range, armor piercing, effects like knockdown and slow. The auto shotgun is probably closest to "best weapon" but even that isn't optimal in absolutely every situation.

Same with the hate on knuckles. Seen in strict isolation they are average but they also come with the entire fortitude package.

Sorry but that's flawed logic when it comes to the knuckles. By saying "they come with the fortitude package" you're almost saying that they are a little extra for getting the entire fortitude tree, which let me tell you, is not as good of a tree as one might think for what it offers. The idea should be "the fortitude tree comes with the brawler", not the other way around, otherwise the knuckles are just a placebo that you CAN get.

Nearly every weapon feels solid, perkless or not, besides the spear and knuckles. And even without comparing them to the rest you have to compare them somehow, like what do they excel in, that other weapons don't as well? Do they need to excel in something? No. But do they need an incentive for their usage? Of course, and right now, there's none, besides "oh it's different, let me force myself to make this work just because i wanna use the weapon". It should come off naturally.

The changes needed to make them better aren't extravagant either...

Knuckles:

- Increase the punch speed and/or lessen the time between punches 

- Significantly reduce stamina cost

- Reduce damage? But increase the knockout chance even without power attacks.

- Give it a weakness effect after 5-10 hits on a body part?

Spear:

- Innate 50% armor piercing or ignores armor on throw (don't know if it's currently the case)

- Faster throwing speed and damage which leads to having that piercing feel when throwing a goddamn spear to impale a zombie.

- Better poke range (perception users should NOT engange in melee combat, so this should help keep the distance in case they get swarmed...or just don't and let them get punished by bad decision-making).

Boom, now you have a weapon that's good for 1v1, stamina-efficient, crowd-controling weapon for long fights. And a cheap VIP target slayer (that goes well with the whole rifle and perception tree, that's literally about killing VIP targets).

 

[Doctor3D]

Mate here is the problem, I did play a drunken brawler, even before the knuckles got into the game and after . I knew what I was getting myself into, but it's underwhelming as hell. It's not a grand scheme of balance, and like i said, and you pretty much followed, the only thing it has going for it when it comes to interest is the different design and animations. It is fun, I never questioned that, the problem is that when you add something with as much presence as other weapons in the game (3 tiers, can have modifications, lootable, craftable and locked behind schematics, perk dedicated to it), it simply can't just be "fun", otherwise all of this loses it's purpose, especially later on into the game. 

If the developers want to make it JUST a fun weapon, make it a lootable common weapon only, instead of acting like the rest. Pick up and use, have fun, throw it out, rinse and repeat. Right now, they just don't fight where the others do, and meta in this game is as existent as it is non-existent, it depends on a bunch of variables and playstyles, even with a jack of all trades build, ak-47/pistol/shotgun are your incredibly viable choices without focusing on either.

I understand your point, and I do think it's fair. I think I just come from a different perspective. I come from a pretty big history of playing games like daggerfall and morrowind and I go through all those pre-defined classes in the game. Many of them are balance-wise -  not even remotely comparable to the others - they are just an experience and class you do. I don't come out them like they need to fit in with the more mainstream things.  

I mean - if you're picking a character that's gonna use primarily fists in a game where we have bows, knives, clubs, guns and rocket-launchers - surely you understand going in that it's gonna be one of the weakest and even more limited options to play. Within the context of what that kind of playthrough is - surely a brawler character is more versatile and interesting now than say 2 years ago? If it is -  well that's progress. That's all I was saying.

As far as The jack of all trades - well that SHOULD have incredibly viable choices without focusing on either - that's the whole point (to me at least?). 

 

[RhinoW]

I understand your point, and I do think it's fair. I think I just come from a different perspective. I come from a pretty big history of playing games like daggerfall and morrowind and I go through all those pre-defined classes in the game. Many of them are balance-wise -  not even remotely comparable to the others - they are just an experience and class you do. I don't come out them like they need to fit in with the more mainstream things.  

I mean - if you're picking a character that's gonna use primarily fists in a game where we have bows, knives, clubs, guns and rocket-launchers - surely you understand going in that it's gonna be one of the weakest and even more limited options to play. Within the context of what that kind of playthrough is - surely a brawler character is more versatile and interesting now than say 2 years ago? If it is -  well that's progress. That's all I was saying.

As far as The jack of all trades - well that SHOULD have incredibly viable choices without focusing on either - that's the whole point (to me at least?). 

Exactly, but what I want from the weapon is not necessarily big damage or a super viable option. I want it to be mechanically fun and atleast have some sort of purpose. The knife, which was my example, is much more fun than the knuckles because they are not unique enough other than their visuals.

Being the weakest also doesn't mean it can't be "strong" on it's own, I honestly couldn't care less about how it compares to other weapons as long as it gets A CERTAIN JOB right. My problem with the weapon is that on it's own, it's underwhelming and serves little to no purpose other than "trying something new", it could be so much more, and still be called "weak" compared to other weapons, it will always be weaker than anything else, even in real life, but that's not a problem.

 

[Laz Man]

Exactly, but what I want from the weapon is not necessarily big damage or a super viable option. I want it to be mechanically fun and atleast have some sort of purpose. The knife, which was my example, is much more fun than the knuckles because they are not unique enough other than their visuals.

Being the weakest also doesn't mean it can't be "strong" on it's own, I honestly couldn't care less about how it compares to other weapons as long as it gets A CERTAIN JOB right. My problem with the weapon is that on it's own, it's underwhelming and serves little to no purpose other than "trying something new", it could be so much more, and still be called "weak" compared to other weapons, it will always be weaker than anything else, even in real life, but that's not a problem.

Maybe it can use more balancing but they are certainly not weak.  I remember testing out the entire bar brawler book, steal knuckles and using consumable and man were things getting wrecked and it felt fun....

 

[RhinoW]

Maybe it can use more balancing but they are certainly not weak.  I remember testing out the entire bar brawler book, steal knuckles and using consumable and man were things getting wrecked and it felt fun....

Entire book, tier 3 knuckles + a buff.  Well, I would be severely scared if THAT didn't work.

 

[Laz Man]

Entire book, tier 3 knuckles + a buff.  Well, I would be severely scared if THAT didn't work.

Experiment with the book series and consumables.  Even without t3, I bet u could stop get some good results.

Edit: For the record fist build doesnt interest me much.  I am more of an Int/Per guy.  Still it felt fun.

 

[RhinoW]

Experiment with the book series and consumables.  Even without t3, I bet u could stop get some good results.

But that's an issue right there, relying on buffs. They should be an extra, not the necessary to make something work.

 

[Laz Man]

But that's an issue right there, relying on buffs. They should be an extra, not the necessary to make something work.

Ah ha! That's where some will disagree with you.  Not everything needs to be 100% like for like across the board to be fun.

I bet the number one reason some play fist builds is because they are fun and can care less of x y z comparisons.

Edit: Again not saying they dont need alittle more balancing.

 

[hiemfire]

Experiment with the book series and consumables.

Sorry, but this, and every time one of the Devs say "just use x item that requires a drop or to be in the trader's list of wares", irks the hell out of me since it really is just saying "Get lucky."... If the viability of any weapon relies on good rng with buff items (perk books included) then the item is not viable. Fortuna can be a fickle @%$*#!, and only a fool expects her to grant them anything...

 

[Gazz]

Sure, if you add extra limitations like "must not use consumables" then several parts of the game will feel unfairly hard to you.

 

[Khalagar]

One example: With your approach 2 turrets must be as strong as an auto shotgun or M60 because they are "a weapon" and all weapons are to be tested in isolation and in the same manner.

Err, yeah, preferably the end goal would before the dual junk turrets to be around the same level as an Auto Shotgun  or M60 in overall utility, since the Dual Junk Turrets is the int equivalent to a T3 weapon as the drone isn't offense focused. It's not about straight damage, you get utility from the range, autonomous attacking, resource expenditure, armor pen etc, but I think their over all utility should be directly balanced against the overall utility an M60 or Auto Shottie can bring to bear for other builds. Sniper too I guess, but it's kinda irrelevant lol

ATM dual junk turrets use a TREMENDOUS amount more resources than the shotgun and do less damage than it, but that's because the shotgun is just flat out OP. Not sure how you can say it's the closest to the best weapon when it is the best weapon in almost any situation that matters. It's not the best at medium range and long range obviously, so you either ignore zombies at those distances or run over to them without fear of retribution because it will tear through an entire horde of irradiated one sidedly. Even an unperked Auto Shottie is a staple "Oh Crap Theres a Zombie in My Face!!!" weapon on any other build because it will clear a room faster than their actual perk weapon

Junk Turrets vs M60 is closer to balanced, they don't seem to clear as fast as an m60, take twice as many mods, and have set up times to place and pick up etc so I lean towards them being a bit weaker but they are fine and the m60 has it's drawbacks like using more expensive ammo. It's more just ATM Shotgun and Steel Club are outlier on every test as they are overtuned imo

"Everyone knows" that the stun baton does not measure up to other melee weapons. Then the other day I saw Jonah on a stream clearing a T5 POI on insane/nightmare with a stun baton and very rarely a regular pistol. It's not even supposed to do that without the bots but it's clearly doable anyway.

That doesn't mean he couldn't have done it 10 times faster and easier with a steel club.  The game is easy enough where *any* weapon will work, you could clear a T5 with a bone shiv if you wanted, it would just take drastically longer than and be more dangerous than if you were using a better weapon

That's my point with a standardized test. Set up a custom made maze with static zombies, run through it with each build, time results. Just doing a rudimentary version of that on an open road spawning the same zombies and disregarding any test that had an RNG dismember chance proc had pretty obvious clear time differences and risk differences.

If X takes 20 seconds to clear and you run it 10 times and never take a point of damage, and Y takes 4 minutes to clear each time and you nearly die 5 times per run, that's a pretty instant indicator that Y is not good for that situation. If you run different tests for different situations like groups, armored enemies etc, and Y does bad in every test and X does good in them, it's pretty much undeniable that X is better than Y

You get the "Well I like using a spear!" thing which is fine, it's not so bad it's unusable, it just bad enough to be worse than another option in enough common situations to be a mid or low tier weapon. The main issue with the spear is just the mechanics. Mechanically, it's extremely high risk because you can lose it to the void or miss and have to go get it, and it's payoff is lower than much safer options. It's over all DPS is drastically lower because of the "The zombie won't let go of my spear" thing too where you hammer the E key and can't get the spear back for 8 seconds that leave you open to other zombies, where as with a different weapon you would have been attacking. 

High risk + low reward = low tier weapon you use for challenge or fun

 

[katarynna]

Err, yeah, preferably the end goal would before the dual junk turrets to be around the same level as an Auto Shotgun  or M60 in overall utility, since the Dual Junk Turrets is the int equivalent to a T3 weapon as the drone isn't offense focused

Just a bit of a nitpick, but i think dual junk turrets compared to an auto shotgun/m60 have to included the added damage of either the stun baton or and unperked gun from another tree. Your junk turrets are sitting on the ground firing at things so your hands are free to contribute with another damage source. 

 

[Aldranon]

A full stack of Coffee or better, Blackstrap coffee, should be in every melee players inventory before entering a POI 4 or 5 OR once at high GS.

They are cheap to make and can make a difference with other items and perks.

I like A19 cooking, so its not wasted points to me when I go melee, so many boosts in the food! 

 

[hiemfire]

The main issue with the spear is just the mechanics. Mechanically, it's extremely high risk because you can lose it to the void or miss and have to go get it, and it's payoff is lower than much safer options.

Which is why I like @Adam the Waster's idea of being able to toggle from power throw to power stab with it via a rotary menu.

 

[Aldranon]

<Duplicate entry>

 

[meganoth]

Sorry but that's flawed logic when it comes to the knuckles. By saying "they come with the fortitude package" you're almost saying that they are a little extra for getting the entire fortitude tree, which let me tell you, is not as good of a tree as one might think for what it offers. The idea should be "the fortitude tree comes with the brawler", not the other way around, otherwise the knuckles are just a placebo that you CAN get.

Maybe he is almost saying that, but really he is saying that the best ranged weapon set (at least if we include all ranges) comes with the worst melee weapon set. Which is a balance over the attribute.

But the only unique feature of the knuckles, avoiding infection, really lost its appeal after all the other ailings were added to the game. So I agree with whoever said the knuckles should now protect against lacerations and cuts as well.

I don't see a problem with the brawler being only really effective with bear, by the way.

 

[Aldranon]

On Sledge turrets: They are with out a doubt the most OP defensive weapon when used correctly!    

-On the outside of doors a bit off to one side. 

-At the corner of an "L" turn, facing the direction of incoming zombies.

-To the side of a high (damage dealing high) path getting to you.  (Kage848 has to take credit for that, see one of his recent vids).  I added the height thing.

Now, here is where it gets even better!  Imagine you can make a near infinite number of turrets... and you have a lot of doors in your BM defense...  Al's Fun-house and Burrito Bar is now open!  

oops.

 

[MechanicalLens]

Pistol Pete Vol 1 states that when you are ADS with a scope or the iron sights with 9mm weapons it increases their damage by 10%. Does this buff also work if a reflex sight is attached to them?

 

[Laz Man]

Sorry, but this, and every time one of the Devs say "just use x item that requires a drop or to be in the trader's list of wares", irks the hell out of me since it really is just saying "Get lucky."... If the viability of any weapon relies on good rng with buff items (perk books included) then the item is not viable. Fortuna can be a fickle @%$*#!, and only a fool expects her to grant them anything...

Yeah i hear you.  I am not speaking for the devs here but what if they wanted a to balance out a high output/damage weapon with RNG so its not OP out the gates?  Not every weapon needs to have the exact same progression or use the same combination of buffs/perks/consumables/etc.  If they all did, everything would feel the same eventually but with different skins...

I can appreciate spreadsheet balance but what trumps all of that are 2 things.  Is it fun and different from other weapons and can the player obtain good results eventually when using it?

 

[RhinoW]

Maybe he is almost saying that, but really he is saying that the best ranged weapon set (at least if we include all ranges) comes with the worst melee weapon set. Which is a balance over the attribute.

But the only unique feature of the knuckles, avoiding infection, really lost its appeal after all the other ailings were added to the game. So I agree with whoever said the knuckles should now protect against lacerations and cuts as well.

I don't see a problem with the brawler being only really effective with bear, by the way.

Let's not forget the fortitude tree is based on being resilient, taking hits, which you usually take when fighting with melee. So I find the fact that it has machine gunner rather irrelevant (they are overpowered even without the perk at max rank aswell), so it would actually make sense that you would get at least an interesting melee weapon. Since all of the perk trees have ranged + melee, it makes little sense to not put the same amount of effort in the fortitude tree when it comes to those 2 weapon types (both should be equally important).

Well sure you can say it counter-balances it, but then what's the point of having the brawler perk? A perk tree is not supposed to have something useless and then say "but the other perk fixes the balance issue because instead of using that, you can use this, that's better". Once again, my issue is the fact that fist weapons are almost rendered useless, unless your REALLY TRY to make it work (i've already wrote this like 4 times and provided suggestions).