PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Doctor3D]

@faatal (or anyone else that knows) How hard would it be to make a hotkey map to where you can toggle the display of wires on or off? Some playthroughs I like the challenge of making my wires neat and tidy, or hidden - and others like this one - where it's just in experimental - I've got wires all over the place and - I'd really like to just turn them off sometimes with like an F-key or something.  It's not a big deal - but if was something quick and easy to do - it would be cool. 

 

[Blake_]

This mindset is why these discussions are so funny to watch.

If all weapons were set up to be good at an irish boxing approach then yes, it would be optimal.

Since weapons are balanced asymmetrical it serves no purpose.

One example: With your approach 2 turrets must be as strong as an auto shotgun or M60 because they are "a weapon" and all weapons are to be tested in isolation and in the same manner.

That would be ideal. In a  mathematically entropic gaming universe. I mean it's like being German and Australian at the same time : you get good looks AND politeness AND funny accent in the same package. That's unfair, plz nerf.

 

[beHypE]

This mindset is why these discussions are so funny to watch.

If all weapons were set up to be good at an irish boxing approach then yes, it would be optimal.

Since weapons are balanced asymmetrical it serves no purpose.

One example: With your approach 2 turrets must be as strong as an auto shotgun or M60 because they are "a weapon" and all weapons are to be tested in isolation and in the same manner.

Or you could interact with facts and numbers and teach us those "methods" to balance stuff, instead of just chiming in to state how funny our discussions are, but to each their own I guess.

I really wonder how you'd qualify the "asymmetrical balance" of some things right now. How do you feel about the spears right now ? Because in my book, their melee damage is laughable, their throw is high risk and is frankly bad in a 1vX scenario, sometimes you can't properly unstuck the spear from the zed, when you play with more than one, the other one goes back to your inventory... I mean quite frankly if you could enlighten me on how balanced they are from an asymmetrical point of view, I'm sure I'd dig it, but right now I don't.

 

[Ezed]

@faatal (or anyone else that knows) How hard would it be to make a hotkey map to where you can toggle the display of wires on or off? Some playthroughs I like the challenge of making my wires neat and tidy, or hidden - and others like this one - where it's just in experimental - I've got wires all over the place and - I'd really like to just turn them off sometimes with like an F-key or something.  It's not a big deal - but if was something quick and easy to do - it would be cool. 

I suggested a while back wires (electric fence wire exempted) should only be visible with the wire tool in hand.  I hate messy wiring too.  

I also wish for a one touch restart on lock picks.  I usually reach for a drink or something and most times, I'm about to take a sip when the pick breaks.  Set drink down, hold E, left click, repeat.  Maybe that handy F-key could be used to quickly restart lockpicking with just one hand.

Also an auto-walk / cruise control for vehicles is sorely missed.  I mean literally sorely as never being able to take my hands off the keyboard or mouse are giving me carpal I think...

 

[Gazz]

Or you could interact with facts and numbers and teach us those "methods" to balance stuff, instead of just chiming in to state how funny our discussions are, but to each their own I guess.

No, I don' have to pull back the curtain on all aspects of balancing.

The proof that there is something is all the players popping up and countering pretty much every such one-sided post that tries to explain how item x, y or z are useless.

"Everyone knows" that the stun baton does not measure up to other melee weapons. Then the other day I saw Jonah on a stream clearing a T5 POI on insane/nightmare with a stun baton and very rarely a regular pistol. It's not even supposed to do that without the bots but it's clearly doable anyway.

 

[Xtrakicking]

Not likely unless you are meta gaming it like you do. Shotgun with breachers or c4 does the trick easily too.

In other words, who would waste experience points in the lockpicking perk?

I think the lockpicking mechanic should be an actual minigame instead of what it is now. If it's up to the player's skill to open the safe instead of random chance, it might offer better ways to balance the candy, the perk and the breaching ammo/C4. 

Most pointless red headed step child in the entire game, does *anyone* ever use that? I've never even had a Vulture to compare it to as even end game when I had all the other T3's ages prior, I still never got a single vulture in loot or for sale, but had tons of magnums. Every time I've tried to use that it's just . . .why? I honestly prefer the 9mm to it even late game

Agreed. Even a T6 magnum is disappointing to use. Reaaally slow reload, doesn't hold many rounds, slow rate of fire, low damage (LOW DAMAGE????) and hard to get. It needs some serious love.

 

[MechanicalLens]

Or you could interact with facts and numbers and teach us those "methods" to balance stuff, instead of just chiming in to state how funny our discussions are, but to each their own I guess.

I really wonder how you'd qualify the "asymmetrical balance" of some things right now. How do you feel about the spears right now ? Because in my book, their melee damage is laughable, their throw is high risk and is frankly bad in a 1vX scenario, sometimes you can't properly unstuck the spear from the zed, when you play with more than one, the other one goes back to your inventory... I mean quite frankly if you could enlighten me on how balanced they are from an asymmetrical point of view, I'm sure I'd dig it, but right now I don't.

And yet here I am, perfectly comfortable going 1v1, 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, etc. with Insane zombies (radiated at that) with a level 5/6 steel spear, preferably one that is fully kitted out in mods. By that point the left-click attack is a viable attack move, as you can knock down one enemy, throw it at another, and rinse and repeat until the zombies die. Sitting where they are, spears are perfectly fine imo.

 

[beHypE]

No, I don' have to pull back the curtain on all aspects of balancing.

The proof that there is something is all the players popping up and countering pretty much every such one-sided post that tries to explain how item x, y or z are useless.

"Everyone knows" that the stun baton does not measure up to other melee weapons. Then the other day I saw Jonah on a stream clearing a T5 POI on insane/nightmare with a stun baton and very rarely a regular pistol. It's not even supposed to do that without the bots but it's clearly doable anyway.

You still failed to answer my simple question regarding spears.

Also, what's that trend where you seem to counter every argument either by reduction ad absurdum, or by giving a reference to the odd guy who seemingly made it work ? "Everyone" claimed stun batons were terrible in A18 and they were. Not basing that on voices from forums, but I played a 60 hour game with a pure Int build and gave them their chance (or should I say, I wasted 5 points on them). I haven't played with them in A19 but I heard there's a new book series and candy. Maybe that is the reason why that Jonah guy cleared a T5 POI with it ? Also, just because one guy makes something work doesn't mean it's balanced. I could kill noobs with the heavy machine guns on CS:GO easy peasy, that doesn't mean my weapon choice is good compared to an AK47.

But yeah, you don't have to disclose anything on any part of balancing; but in that case, when you chime in like you did, you're just coming off as the guy on his horse showing he knows better than everyone because he's the guy in charge. I hope you do, and don't just show it.

EDIT : 

And yet here I am, perfectly comfortable going 1v1, 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, etc. with Insane zombies (radiated at that) with a level 5/6 steel spear, preferably one that is fully kitted out in mods. By that point the left-click attack is a viable attack move, as you can knock down one enemy, throw it at another, and rinse and repeat until the zombies die. Sitting where they are, spears are perfectly fine imo.

Sigh, I bet I can find a guy who does that with no weapon while picking his nose. How does anyone doing anything with X mean X is balanced compared to Y ?

 

[MechanicalLens]

Sigh, I bet I can find a guy who does that with no weapon while picking his nose. How does anyone doing anything with X mean X is balanced compared to Y ?

Because to each their own.

 

[beHypE]

Because to each their own.

That's one hell of an argument for balance... let's all just allow people to use their hands when playing football, those who don't like it don't do it, to each their own, it's balanced !

 

[katarynna]

That's one hell of an argument for balance... let's all just allow people to use their hands when playing football, those who don't like it don't do it, to each their own, it's balanced !

Here in America we DO use our hands while playing football.... soccer now is a bit different...

 

[RhinoW]

No, I don' have to pull back the curtain on all aspects of balancing.

The proof that there is something is all the players popping up and countering pretty much every such one-sided post that tries to explain how item x, y or z are useless.

"Everyone knows" that the stun baton does not measure up to other melee weapons. Then the other day I saw Jonah on a stream clearing a T5 POI on insane/nightmare with a stun baton and very rarely a regular pistol. It's not even supposed to do that without the bots but it's clearly doable anyway.

I think everyone here is forgetting to draw the line on what's "possible" and what's good. From my experience, perked in or not, every weapon is good against the zombies besides the goddamn spear and knuckles. I tried perking into the spear, still wasn't worth it at all, too much stamina use on power attack, laughable throwing speed, stabbing seems to have ridiculously small range for a spear and low damage/DPS overall. Same goes for the fist weapon, too much stamina use (bone knife uses less), low damage, high risk low reward and i believe it's even slower than the knife.

Now, the zombies area easily "cheesable" in the game, I think even you developers are aware of that (and this happens with pretty much any game), and it's not a necessarily difficult game within the combat aspect. Even without perks, you can use any weapon and still do good (which I like mind you), and the stun baton is definitely not as weak as some think. My point is, if you look at things this way, then of course everything is either gonna look fine or bad, because 10000 variables will determine your outcome in a fight (maximum stamina, healing items, armor, speed reduction, room you're in, type of zombie). Low max stamina means useless sledgehammer vs 2+ oponents, radiated soldier zombies means weak knifes or melee in general. Also, the dismemberment chance makes literally all weapons "broken" later on, because of the headshot insta kills, so fast attacks > anything else.

I don't believe we should be seeing numbers, but more as in utility. Right now, from my perspective it goes as follows:

Crowd Control: Shotguns (legs n chest), stun baton, sledgehammer (perked in), Club

Stealth/Clearing: Rifles, Bow, Crossbow

1 vs the World: Pistol, knife, Automatic Weapons

1v1: All weapons, because all of them "work"

The spear and knuckles, just don't have any utility besides sucking at what others already do well. They don't do what you expect them to do, the spear should be one hell of a melee weapon, slow but steady, low DPS, but high skill high damage type of weapon (you have to force yourself to use it). The knuckles are just slow (who the f*ck punches at that speed?), use too much stamina than what they're supposed to and get out damaged by anything else.

Here in America we DO use our hands while playing football.... soccer now is a bit different...

hands... FOOTball...interesting way of naming rugby. The guy who decided that would be the name was not the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[Doctor3D]

That's one hell of an argument for balance... let's all just allow people to use their hands when playing football, those who don't like it don't do it, to each their own, it's balanced !

As far as Stun Batons, I can tell you they are MUCH better balanced  than they were last Alpha. I think combining them with the robotics turret was genius. The Stun Baton doesn't 'have' to be easy.  I know that's not YOUR argument. But, i've heard others say something similar such as the stun baton not as good as some other melee weapons.

You have to ask: Good for who? You can do some amazing things with doing a mostly AGI-focused build and perking the top two INTs. In coop it's an absolute blast - and verging on OP not the opposite. Especially when you combine the candies..My wife absolutely wrecks stuff in melee with it - and i'm basically just combing up behind her cleaning up the scraps. 

I just don't see anything wrong with the balance at all with it. I think a lot of guys that try the Stun Baton - came over from the Sledgehammer play style and are expecting that kinda of power - and maybe trying to use it in a way it's not intended for. 

I really think the Perk system and balance is much, much closer now as far as overall balance than it ever was. And, things can never be perfectly balanced because not everything is in the game yet. We don't even have bandits in it - there's gonna be some offbalance in weapons and how the perks work together to build something. For what this is so far, it's damn good if you ask me. I gotta even give props to MadMole - (I think it was his idea to do candies) - I think it was extremely useful in addition another layer to the game. When he mentioned candies at the beginning of this diary to replace so much food - I thought, "Well that aint gonna do much" - but man was I wrong. 

I just don't have a problem at all with the balance. No one I personally play or talk to personally about it does, either. We're pretty much unanimous. It's making progress.

 

[MechanicalLens]

<snipped for space... weapons yadda yadda yadda, knuckles bad>

Not to mention that with the new critical hit system, the last thing you want is you get hit consistently, and that's the point behind the brawler build. Sure, knuckles prevent you from getting infected (infection is a joke as it stands though; no threat presented whatsoever unless you're on day 1), but what good is that if you get a concussion, an abrasion, and a sprained arm with every big encounter? "Then pull out your gun." Well, I suppose knuckles are best suited for 1v1 or 1v2 encounters now.

 

[RhinoW]

Not to mention that with the new critical hit system, the last thing you want is you get hit consistently, and that's the point behind the brawler build. Sure, knuckles prevent you from getting infected (infection is a joke as it stands though; no threat presented whatsoever unless you're on day 1), but what good is that if you get a concussion, an abrasion, and a sprained arm with every big encounter? "Then pull out your gun." Well, I suppose knuckles are best suited for 1v1 or 1v2 encounters now.

All of the weapons, even the spear, "work" for 1v1 and 1v2 encounters with trash mobs. The problem here is that they don't really have a purpose besides being a new weapon type. And obviously the sparring weapon is supposed to be for 1v1 encounters, but even then, it gets @%$*#! on by the rest. The principle when adding a weapon is, "what will make the player choose this instead of that?", and right now the knuckles bring nothing to the table that makes it an interesting weapon, besides, again, being a different weapon type. It could knockout zombies with more frequency, while dealing low damage, could be a sever crowd control badass weapon, but no, it's just a @%$*#!ty, slower knife that doesn't make enemies bleed.

 

[Doctor3D]

All of the weapons, even the spear, "work" for 1v1 and 1v2 encounters with trash mobs. The problem here is that they don't really have a purpose besides being a new weapon type. And obviously the sparring weapon is supposed to be for 1v1 encounters, but even then, it gets @%$*#! on by the rest. The principle when adding a weapon is, "what will make the player choose this instead of that?", and right now the knuckles bring nothing to the table that makes it an interesting weapon, besides, again, being a different weapon type. It could knockout zombies with more frequency, while dealing low damage, could be a sever crowd control badass weapon, but no, it's just a @%$*#!ty, slower knife that doesn't make enemies bleed.

I just don't agree - it's not always about how does X fit into some grand scheme of balance. In this case, lets take the Knuckles. No one who picks a Knuckle class thinks to themself - oh this should be easy. Come'on... A Knuckle-class is fun - it doesn't have be to as good as or compete with another meta-choice. It's a fun choice.

You say it's not an interesting weapon. Well, I disagree. Have you ever played a drunken brawler? Well, you can if you want to - even if you don't find it interesting - i've done it - and it is.

 

[bobross]

One of the reasons I decided double the values of the lockpicking perk was fine.  It's a niche benefit and it gives people that don't want to deal with the RNG lockpick mechanic the ability to essentially "opt out" for a cost.

As an aside, the longer the lockpick mechanic has been in game the less I've liked it.  I was originally ok with it but it's now starting to get really REALLY annoying.  There's no interactivity, it's pure rng, and you could succeed first try or break 20 lockpicks on something and it's just a frustrating experience.  Basically anything that lowers the amount of rng breaking at this point would be an improvement to me.  Especially that last 3 seconds that ends up taking 30 seconds because of constantly breaking lockpicks and the timer resetting.

It picks up where the last one left off, so if you were down to only 25% left it starts at 25%.

It still resets below a certain time. I haven't done rigorous testing on it because I sort of assumed it was intentional, but anything below, I want to say 3.5 seconds left, resets to 3.5 seconds if the pick breaks.

If it were possible (and I have no idea if it is possible), it'd be nice if instead of when a pick breaks having to restart the process, if it just added 3 seconds to the pick timer and consumes the pick.

 

[RhinoW]

I just don't agree - it's not always about how does X fit into some grand scheme of balance. In this case, lets take the Knuckles. No one who picks a Knuckle class thinks to themself - oh this should be easy. Come'on... A Knuckle-class is fun - it doesn't have be to as good as or compete with another meta-choice. It's a fun choice.

You say it's not an interesting weapon. Well, I disagree. Have you ever played a drunken brawler? Well, you can if you want to - even if you don't find it interesting - i've done it - and it is.

Mate here is the problem, I did play a drunken brawler, even before the knuckles got into the game and after . I knew what I was getting myself into, but it's underwhelming as hell. It's not a grand scheme of balance, and like i said, and you pretty much followed, the only thing it has going for it when it comes to interest is the different design and animations. It is fun, I never questioned that, the problem is that when you add something with as much presence as other weapons in the game (3 tiers, can have modifications, lootable, craftable and locked behind schematics, perk dedicated to it), it simply can't just be "fun", otherwise all of this loses it's purpose, especially later on into the game. 

If the developers want to make it JUST a fun weapon, make it a lootable common weapon only, instead of acting like the rest. Pick up and use, have fun, throw it out, rinse and repeat. Right now, they just don't fight where the others do, and meta in this game is as existent as it is non-existent, it depends on a bunch of variables and playstyles, even with a jack of all trades build, ak-47/pistol/shotgun are your incredibly viable choices without focusing on either.

 

[Gazz]

Sigh, I bet I can find a guy who does that with no weapon while picking his nose. How does anyone doing anything with X mean X is balanced compared to Y ?

It means exactly what I said before.

You testing and rating every weapon based on how well they support your preferred play style does not mean that overall balance must be adjusted to make every weapon equally valid for this situation. Some have range, armor piercing, effects like knockdown and slow. The auto shotgun is probably closest to "best weapon" but even that isn't optimal in absolutely every situation.

Same with the hate on knuckles. Seen in strict isolation they are average but they also come with the entire fortitude package.

 

[Slingblade2040]

How is it OP? They are available in limited quantities, where if you do a lot of tier 4 and 5 questing and have the super chests to deal with you are going to run out, where with shotgun breaching rounds I can blow the lock off in a few shots and be in. Same way with a ranked up pickaxe you can smash in fairly quick, so to pay 100 dukes to speed that up a bit isn't really that OP. Originally it increased your chance to get in, but it was meh, nobody was buying them because you had to lug lockpicks and candy to do it, vs just a pickaxe, you might as well just use a pickaxe if it isn't guaranteed to get you in, instread of wasting 2 slots on lockpicks and candy that might NOT get the job done.

I disagree, clubs smoke knives, but knives are fun too. Knocking a guy down is way better than him bleeding where you still need to run away.

cost of resources to get the rounds for that shotgun? also it's still inventory space for the shotgun rounds or the charges which are a pain to craft compared to going to a vending machine spending 100 dukes and buying the candies since most player hit up vending machines on a daily basis.

how many charges or shells are needed for the safe? what is the cost for those materials? also time to gather those materials and time to craft them all factor into just how OP those candies are. honestly why would I waste resources on shells or charges which can go to crafting bullets or lowering pick axe durability when a simple 100 duke candy is a cheaper and time saving alternative?