PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[madmole]

ok. how much time and effort go into getting jail breaker candy vs using other methods?  also amount of resources and perk points. the idea of a 100 duke candy letting you 100% lockpick is very OP. 100 duke is a joke to get and with vending machines respawning what every day? it's very easy to obtain jail breakers. 

the idea of not calling those candies anything outside of OP is kinda ridiculous. kinda weird that those candies are OK while other things that weren't even close to being that good got nerfed to hell.

How is it OP? They are available in limited quantities, where if you do a lot of tier 4 and 5 questing and have the super chests to deal with you are going to run out, where with shotgun breaching rounds I can blow the lock off in a few shots and be in. Same way with a ranked up pickaxe you can smash in fairly quick, so to pay 100 dukes to speed that up a bit isn't really that OP. Originally it increased your chance to get in, but it was meh, nobody was buying them because you had to lug lockpicks and candy to do it, vs just a pickaxe, you might as well just use a pickaxe if it isn't guaranteed to get you in, instread of wasting 2 slots on lockpicks and candy that might NOT get the job done.

Melee agility build is by far the strongest in the game, not even comparable to anything else. Bleed + fast chance to insta kill + good stamina efficiency per hit + no movement penalty + easy crafts (bone knife).

I disagree, clubs smoke knives, but knives are fun too. Knocking a guy down is way better than him bleeding where you still need to run away.

 

[bloodmoth13]

How is it OP? They are available in limited quantities, where if you do a lot of tier 4 and 5 questing and have the super chests to deal with you are going to run out, where with shotgun breaching rounds I can blow the lock off in a few shots and be in. Same way with a ranked up pickaxe you can smash in fairly quick, so to pay 100 dukes to speed that up a bit isn't really that OP. Originally it increased your chance to get in, but it was meh, nobody was buying them because you had to lug lockpicks and candy to do it, vs just a pickaxe, you might as well just use a pickaxe if it isn't guaranteed to get you in, instread of wasting 2 slots on lockpicks and candy that might NOT get the job done.

Im guessing he was comparing the candy to the lockpicking perk, which with 3 points only gives you a 30% increased chance to not break as opposed to 1 candy that gives you 100% chance. The candy basically gives you 10 perk points worth of the lock picker perk, which on that metric looks really good, i think it just shows more how low the value of that perk is (1 pt for the lockpick crafting though is probably worth it)

 

[hiemfire]

@Khalagar 2 things.

1: 55 attacks per minute (what your example steel spear does) = 1 attack every 1.09 seconds and 52 attacks per minute (what your example steel club does) = 1 attack every 1.15 seconds. The spear in your example attacks more often.

2: Why are you using fortifying grip instead of ergonomic grip?

 

[Khalagar]

: 55 attacks per minute (what your example steel spear does) = 1 attack every 1.09 seconds and 52 attacks per minute (what your example steel club does) = 1 attack every 1.15 seconds. The spear in your example attacks more often.

Oops, yeah misread it. Spear attacks slightly faster with a light attack

Why are you using fortifying grip instead of ergonomic grip?

Mostly was just what I had on me and I wasn't really thinking too much about it. Was getting annoyed trying to find things that fit it that were good, I figured stuff like serrated blade would fit it, but nope. I just stuck that on there for the extra damage from number of mods. Rad remover probably would have been best I guess, but there is kind of a shortage of mods for melee weapons honestly, I ran into the same issue on Machete where I struggled to find stuff to even work on it, as common sense things like serrated blade wouldn't work on it either

 

[MechanicalLens]

Oops, yeah misread it. Spear attacks slightly faster with a light attack

Mostly was just what I had on me and I wasn't really thinking too much about it. Was getting annoyed trying to find things that fit it that were good, I figured stuff like serrated blade would fit it, but nope. I just stuck that on there for the extra damage from number of mods. Rad remover probably would have been best I guess, but there is kind of a shortage of mods for melee weapons honestly, I ran into the same issue on Machete where I struggled to find stuff to even work on it, as common sense things like serrated blade wouldn't work on it either

You think melee weapons have it rough? Try the magnum.  :hopelessness:

 

[STyK_]

Hopefully this is still a work in progress. It also rained for 11 hours in game during which time it was freezing and as soon as it stopped even though it was still dark cloudy I started getting heat stroke, pretty much the day 6 from hell.

 

[Khalagar]

They mentioned on one of the streams that not putting your buried supplies under a road was one of those "it sounds easy on paper but isn't" things. You just have to dig in from the side

Try the magnum.

Oh man, speaking of weapons that need a buff really badly, that thing. Most pointless red headed step child in the entire game, does *anyone* ever use that? I've never even had a Vulture to compare it to as even end game when I had all the other T3's ages prior, I still never got a single vulture in loot or for sale, but had tons of magnums. Every time I've tried to use that it's just . . .why? I honestly prefer the 9mm to it even late game

 

[STyK_]

They mentioned on one of the streams that not putting your buried supplies under a road was one of those "it sounds easy on paper but isn't" things. You just have to dig in from the side

well in that case I'm more likely to cancel the quest and let the trader come up with something else the next day, cause that was a death trap. Not that I died but expected the dog horde every second I couldn't see and getting away was a massive pain.

 

[Laz Man]

TLDR; Club is OP and outclasses everything else. Spear and Machete (and probably Stun Baton) are called weak (by comparison) but are usable, they are just under tuned. Spear getting a chain that pulls it back to you after you throw it would solve a lot of it's issues, and Machete just needs number tweaks to make bleed less non-existent 

Sledge, Spear, Machete, and Axe can all get the job decently well, they are just all outclassed by the Club and all have downsides the club does not have. Junk Sledge is terrible in handheld, and I didn't test Stun Baton

Did you consider available mod types?  I know they removed the burning shaft from some weapon types.  If burning shaft is still compatible with clubs maybe they should remove it to make the spear more viable?

Hopefully this is still a work in progress. It also rained for 11 hours in game during which time it was freezing and as soon as it stopped even though it was still dark cloudy I started getting heat stroke, pretty much the day 6 from hell.

View attachment 12473

Lathan was laughing maniacally in tonight's dev stream....now I know why lol...

Joking aside, he mentioned there is no way for him to determine where there is a road thus cannot do road detection.  Pointed at Robert...

 

[Gazz]

A lot of those balance suggestions are entertaining to read. Every time someone claims that blades are weak, someone else pipes up with them being very strong. Some hate the magnum, others love the it, etc.

The fun part is that all of those are correct.

If you use your play style only then from that perspective some weapons will absolutely be much stronger than others.

Spears or blades can not be buffed to a point where you can just stand there all chill and trade blows with a zombie because then they would end up crazy OP. There already are weapons for this kind of thing. Use those and be happy.

 

[Rathlon]

In the latest A19 experimental build my mother has the zombies off due to that's how she plays.

But in doing so the hostile animals also doesn't spawn.

And yet today she ran across a direwolf, now I looked over the entityclasses.xml file at the coding for the hostile animals.

I didn't notice anything changed on the enemy type code line.

Or it was never stated in the patch notes.

And yes I know it's experimental and bugs can and will happen, but this one is new to me.

 

[CoolJ]

Oh man, speaking of weapons that need a buff really badly, that thing (the magnum). Most pointless red headed step child in the entire game, does *anyone* ever use that? I've never even had a Vulture to compare it to as even end game when I had all the other T3's ages prior, I still never got a single vulture in loot or for sale, but had tons of magnums. Every time I've tried to use that it's just . . .why? I honestly prefer the 9mm to it even late game

I use a Vulture when I am doing T5 Dungeon Crawls. The magnum does do more damage, however, it cannot be silenced. The magazine also cannot be expanded. I use a magnum with AP rounds on horde nights to kill demolishers. Fully maxed out with a 2x scope, it works really well for that one thing alone. Though I feel a sniper or a marksman rifle would probably be better for that with the larger magazines and faster fire rate. Certainly if you are perked into it. I don't even know what the marksman rifle is supposed to do now otherwise.

I disagree, clubs smoke knives, but knives are fun too. Knocking a guy down is way better than him bleeding where you still need to run away.

Did you forget that when you are perked into deep cuts, your enemy is slowed? There is no running away. There is only attacking another target while the previous one dies. Not to mention, you can't harvest an animal with a club. Your system puts so much weight in inventory slots, that even saving one matters. It's another reason why the candies are not OP. They take up yet another inventory slot. Once you have a steel pic, carting around lock picks and candy just to open a safe is a complete waste of time and inventory space.

 

[Khalagar]

Every time someone claims that blades are weak, someone else pipes up with them being very strong

Consistent Testing™ solves everything! TTK is the baseline test that works best for most games, just pick a specific enemy, time how fast it dies to each build, and you've got a pretty unbiased test for 1 vs 1 at least. Definitely not perfect though, since it's just 1 vs 1, and some things are really bad in groups, like the spear being REALLY bad for groups

Did you forget that when you are perked into deep cuts, your enemy is slowed?

Stun >>>>>>>>>>>> Slow

Club staggers and knocks them out, and also kills faster too. You should test the "trigger bleed and ignore them" as from my tests earlier it didn't do enough damage to matter even with a flaming shaft mod

Not to mention, you can't harvest an animal with a club

This is why I think the Axe is the one of the best late game melee weapon. TTK wasn't that much lower than Sledgehammer, it tears through wood, has pretty reasonable stamina use, gathers meat, staggers enemies decently etc. It's all around pretty good.

Club is just flat out OP at the moment, but it's arguable if it's even *worth* carrying a melee weapon at all late game, so the axe can do melee "good enough" and has a lot of utility too

 

[CoolJ]

I have tested the bleed thoroughly. I use it. Also the machete in your example is a low roll. Mine does 42 damage maxed out. You really need to be perked into Deep Cuts for it to matter. Have you actually tried it with maxed deep cuts? When you get 7 consecutive bleeds going on an enemy, and just switch to killing anther enemy all together, that is going to change your TTK more than you think. I also don't melee radiated zombies. They are dead before they ever wake up.

 

[madmole]

I use a Vulture when I am doing T5 Dungeon Crawls. The magnum does do more damage, however, it cannot be silenced. The magazine also cannot be expanded. I use a magnum with AP rounds on horde nights to kill demolishers. Fully maxed out with a 2x scope, it works really well for that one thing alone. Though I feel a sniper or a marksman rifle would probably be better for that with the larger magazines and faster fire rate. Certainly if you are perked into it. I don't even know what the marksman rifle is supposed to do now otherwise.

Did you forget that when you are perked into deep cuts, your enemy is slowed? There is no running away. There is only attacking another target while the previous one dies. Not to mention, you can't harvest an animal with a club. Your system puts so much weight in inventory slots, that even saving one matters. It's another reason why the candies are not OP. They take up yet another inventory slot. Once you have a steel pic, carting around lock picks and candy just to open a safe is a complete waste of time and inventory space.

It is probably close when you weigh in all the factors, really it depends on your style and what makes you feel like a badass. I think clubs are better for sure early game but maybe later on knives start to catch up.

 

[DaVegaNL]

no thanks, I know where you have been. "Devega! someone at the door for you!"

Oh he's here again to talk about our lord and savior, Madmole?

 

[CoolJ]

It is probably close when you weigh in all the factors, really it depends on your style and what makes you feel like a badass. I think clubs are better for sure early game but maybe later on knives start to catch up.

I would hope that is idea anyway. They feel pretty balanced to me. I only ever get SexyT level one. It is all the class needs. Other melee weapons require more points into it than that. It's just a play style change. If you take advantage of all the class attributes when you can, there are distinct advantages to perking into any of them. Knives are fine.

I will say that if you think a full length shotgun with a choke only has a range of six meters, you need to actually shoot a shotgun. I know you want to keep the range down for balance reasons. However, six meters is laughable. My positively ancient Browning A12 patterns 13-16 inches with 00 high brass at twenty meters. Granted I had to pay a gunsmith to fit a proper choke. It was still way better than six meters even with the horrible adjustable thing they called a choke that came on the gun. I would say that there is no problem for them to go out to ten or eleven meters and they still won't be a rifle. Slugs being so short range in this game is a travesty. They wont replace rifles for long range because people that perk into rifles will still use rifles. It would just give strength characters the ability to switch to longer range round if they want to hit something farther away. Keep in mind that it will still cost an inventory slot to carry them and they are way too expensive to use them exclusively. Polymer is far more expensive than brass and paper. Keeping shotguns at such a low range for balance is not any different than making the rifles useless at close range for "balance". It is currently pointless to shoot at a circling vulture with a shotgun. Considering that the shotgun is the go to fouling weapon of choice, it seems kinda contrived.

Back when you didn't have a perk system supporting the use of specific weapons, maybe it made sense. I don't feel like the range penalty is warranted.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Has the few-second-delay-lag been fixed already when encountering new POI's?

 

[Gazz]

Consistent Testing™ solves everything! TTK is the baseline test that works best for most games, just pick a specific enemy, time how fast it dies to each build, and you've got a pretty unbiased test for 1 vs 1 at least. Definitely not perfect though, since it's just 1 vs 1, and some things are really bad in groups, like the spear being REALLY bad for groups

This mindset is why these discussions are so funny to watch.

If all weapons were set up to be good at an irish boxing approach then yes, it would be optimal.

Since weapons are balanced asymmetrical it serves no purpose.

One example: With your approach 2 turrets must be as strong as an auto shotgun or M60 because they are "a weapon" and all weapons are to be tested in isolation and in the same manner.

 

[MasterScrotis]

Damn Mad Mole You guys have been Busy.. Whether you remember me or not I just want to begin with.. I'm Proud of You guys and what you have accomplished.

and follow up with That I'm honored so many of my modded features have made it into the game now

Yes of course I'm cooking something up It should look pretty familiar right down to the science of it Be on the lookout in the mod forum. 

While I'mat it where is my old friend Valmar? I need someone to get me up to speed with how the new modding works and He isn't even on my steam list anymore and these new programs seem clunky compared to what we used back in 2014ish or maybe again I'm just not sure how to use it right lol.

Either way boys Sorry for the several year hiatus And I'm So proud to call this the greatest game of all time  see ya around.