PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Khalagar]

Oof, being full quoted mid edit. I need to get better about editing before posting haha.

For the bleeding thing . . it's just so much easier to carry a healing item than to let bleed time out or invest 3 full perk points into reducing the bleed time and damage a bit. Like, I don't think I've ever let a bleed time out on it's own lol. You will have to heal either way, so why not use a medkit or bandage or sewing kit or one of the other ways to stop it instead and put those points into Physician or something with a way more tangible benefit

 

[RhinoW]

Oof, being full quoted mid edit. I need to get better about editing before posting haha.

For the bleeding thing . . it's just so much easier to carry a healing item than to let bleed time out or invest 3 full perk points into reducing the bleed time and damage a bit. Like, I don't think I've ever let a bleed time out on it's own lol. You will have to heal either way, so why not use a medkit or bandage or sewing kit or one of the other ways to stop it instead and put those points into Physician or something with a way more tangible benefit

Hence why I said it's a late game perk, and I mostly picked it because of the +1 fortitude and half bleeding (trust me those are needed when you get swarmed in the shenlong tower or that one medical facility, you don't much big of a window to heal until you clear up the mess).

 

[Jarod_Silverstar]

@Capp00 sort of has you covered there.  

Amazing how much has changed but yet it is still the same core game and there are clearly things identifiable even through all the versions.

 

[Adam the Waster]

Looking at your debuffs pains me. that` s a rough start.

Talking about rough start, i Just had the fastest permadeath game session ever, didn`t even last half a day. Generated 4k rwg map, had a nice spawning point (in a car lol), and my first buried supply quest led me to mountain lion.. I though hostile animals spawned at night or was that change only for forest biome?

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Joining in on Perks, I play with purist builds/roleplay, I never spend a single point outside my specific tree until it`s maxed out. Now I`m playing agility, maxed it out fully before I got anything else and I`m doing fine. I`m on day 60 (40min day, no loot respawn, bm every 2-4days, max alive 64, survivalist, nightmare) and don`t even have a bicycle and honestly don`t see a need for one as there is still plenty to do in my town near trader. After maxing out agility just now started investing in intellect (engineering, physician) for faster crafting times, not the items they unlock.

Reading people say one or other perk is a "must have" really baffles me. What were you guys doing before perks were introduced? Some of them are better than others, sure, that`s the beauty of it, but saying one is a mandatory perk is just wrong as it all depends from person to person.

yeah i may restart but i may troop on! im on day 8, horde night was Hard, died to many times. but im going to get a job at white river so i can get the xp!

and with perks i like to having everything but i need to remind my self that i can't. im used to being a jack of all trades in say ARK, but i can't in this game, Not saying thats a problem! but i like to have my Victory garden, and mine, and be good with spears or robots. so its kinda ruff!

 

[Blake_]

@madmole I get it. You describe a valid gameplay path. And, while your vision seems valid you are wrong about the aproach . A mathematical and completely balanced aproach will always trump whatever you "feel" about, say, perk design. Once you perfectly balance an attribute taking into account health recovery, weapons, feel, uses and usefulness then you can add infinite content and it will always be good, exciting, perfect or chaotic for any kind of player as you describe.

The current design, thanks to you meets all of the above EXCEPT "usefulness" because there are nonavoidable cases, like mining, that are intrinsecally superior to any other attribute perk relative; again because there is no similar ones in other attributes. A good choice is to put the black sheep into a new page and maybe steepen their cost (or not, really, it doesn't matter) and not forcing them into an attribute gate.

Why does that technicality matter and why is it any different than the current system? 

Because the current way you semiforce a expenditure of points in an attribute for ANY gameplay style  that you really might not want to chose (everybody mines). Goodbye to my agility , intellect, fortitude or perception build if I can't even mine fast enough by day 30 due to the fact that I don't want strenght. 1/3 of the game down the drain for 80% of the pure builds or as you like to call them, "Roleplays". Doesn't matter if you make them cheap as dirt : as long as they are under an attribute you force their use eventually.

I'm not sure if you get the point. You improved it a lot from a17. But by putting general use perks into any attribute you are and always will be unbalancing your own game. Set them free into a page. On the plus side you will have more space for perks if needed. 

#freethegeneralperks

 

[Laz Man]

@madmole I get it. You describe a valid gameplay path. And, while your vision seems valid you are wrong about the aproach . A mathematical and completely balanced aproach will always trump whatever you "feel" about, say, perk design. Once you perfectly balance an attribute taking into account health recovery, weapons, feel, uses and usefulness then you can add infinite content and it will always be good, exciting, perfect or chaotic for any kind of player as you describe.

The current design, thanks to you meets all of the above EXCEPT "usefulness" because there are nonavoidable cases, like mining, that are intrinsecally superior to any other attribute perk relative again because there is no similar ones in other attributes. A good choice is to put the black sheep into a new page and maybe steepen their cost (or not, really, it doesn't matter) and not forcing them into an attribute gate.

Why does that technicality matter and why is it any different than the current system? 

Because the current way you semiforce a expenditure of points in an attribute for ANY gameplay style  that you really might not want to chose (everybody mines). Goodbye to my agility , intellect, fortitude or perception build if I can't even mine fast enough by day 30 due to the fact that I don't want strenght. 1/3 of the game down the drain for 80% of the pure builds or as you like to call them, "Roleplays". Doesn't matter if you make them cheap as dirt : as long as they are under an attribute you force their use eventually.

I'm not sure if you get the point. You improved it a lot from a17. But by putting general use perks into any attribute you are and always will be unbalancing your own game. Set them free into a page. On the plus side you will have more space for perks if needed. 

#freethegeneralperks

I don't think there is a black/white or right/wrong way about it... What might help illustrate your opinion is if you had another similar game where what you are proposing works better then how they have it now.  Keep in mind they may disagree with you but success stories of other games will put more creditability behind your opinion.  On the flip side, they are within their right to explore and do their own thing and not copy other games out there as well.  One of the beauty's of EA titles, crowd funded, self published game dev companies is the creative freedom that they have.

 

[Blake_]

I don't think there is a black/white or right/wrong way about it... What might help illustrate your opinion is if you had another similar game where what you are proposing works better then how they have it now.  Keep in mind they may disagree with you but success stories of other games will put more creditability behind your opinion.  On the flip side, they are within their right to explore and do their own thing and not copy other games out there as well.  One of the beauty's of EA titles, crowd funded, self published game dev companies is the creative freedom that they have.

Yes. We can say that this game is still finding its tune. I could relate to some mmo rpgs with fine tuned skills and balance  but it wouldn't really help my point as there's no game like this one. On a general sense though, I think that detaching troublesome or ambiguous perks into their own non-attribute page will greatly benefit the game and the player.  I feel it (as a player ) every single time I play.

Telemetry data will likely back me up. And steal my children. I'm certain that's what telemetry is for.

 

[Roland]

A good choice is to put the black sheep into a new page and maybe steepen their cost

So what if the steepened cost is exactly the same amount as it costs now? You’d be fine with that? The way it is now you pay a steeper price for a black sheep perk but you also gain the benefit of getting other perks from that attribute for much cheaper not to mention the benefits of the attribute itself for whenever you might use a weapon from that track. 
 

So you would trade those benefits for no benefits but still paying the same steeper price just to get it out of the attribute it’s in?  
 

Instead of thinkIng of it as investing in an attribute you don’t care about, think of it as just the steeper cost for that perk which you already say you are willing to pay. 
 

—————-

@Khalagar you’ve convinced me that you aren’t naive.  I believe you about what you are seeing. Rick also reads a lot of different forums and Reddits. They are aware. 

 

[wolfbain5]

@madmole is it an oversight or intentional that even tho everything else in the game has a recipe or schematic that can be used to learn to craft with except landmines?

 

[Roland]

Landmines are LBW

Learn by Wrenching.

 

[STyK_]

So insane sprint/nightmare is tough and then you find this in the first house you loot on the first mission. If thats not enough I found it again, in the same house same loot run same color and everything.

Known bug? Spawn chance needs to be turned down? Gazz got anything for this? The odds of it happening even?

Edit: figured i should add this is on 25% loot

 

[Khalagar]

I've found more college jackets in this run than like every other run combined.  Could be a bug, or could be RNG doing RNG things.

 

[FileMachete]

No idea how many read my 'pizza with onions' post a couple days back.

Was a failed attempt to spark discussion about the difference between the current 'include weapons in the trees', aka 'order off the menu, no substitutions' versus an open buffet, or 'what would you like on your pizza'.

I haven't said that there aren't good reasons for the 'menu', 'commonly ordered' combos like a the Hawaiian or Meat Lovers or Vegetarian.

Just seems like it'd be in the best business interests of 7dtd, like a pizzeria, to allow their customers to 'have it their way'.

Consider trying to look at the data the current tree system provides. Is there a readily apparent, fool proof, way to tell why a player goes x deep into a tree? Say a players data shows them with lvl 3 in Miner69er and lvl 3 in Clubs. Did they go clubs because they liked them? Or did they go clubs because it was the cheaper option, even though they might have preferred to go with the stun baton for a melee weapon? And the real reason they went Str was to buy M69 to be able to bash in safes quicker?

Sure if everything was an open, free to choose whatever, system, then the min-maxers would settle on that 'One Build To Rule Them All'.

But that's a -good- thing. Now TFPs would have clear data on what's OP'd, and can then address/balance it as they see fit.

M60? as discussed previously a rational movement penalty, can't swing to target as quick as a pistol, could make it _not_ the best in poi clearing.

Or Greasemonkey. If nobodys buying it it'd be easier to tell that maybe the vehicle schematics drop too early/readily.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for a pistol build to be equal with an M60 build when it comes to horde night. Nor that every perk should be equal.

Clearly even with a full freedom open buffet system players who take on multiple 'specialties' will have to decide what to lvl up first, making sacrifices in their progression compared to a build with fewer specialties.

But it could be set up so that two players picking the exact same build, except for their weapon/s, would be at par with each other, perk wise.

----

@Roland , when I used 'noob traps' it wasn't intended as a, "damn these suck" kinda thing, more as what you posted. There are multiple ways to gets x, which is great. And tweaking some things about/around a few perks could make them less or not at all a 'trap'. Really depends on what the design goals are. Could be that the idea is to have a number of 'early game must have' perks that are intentionally devalued later on, so that the Respec becomes commonly used to regain those early game points. Not saying that's the goal of course. And yes, I clearly recall the early debates about even adding in the possiblility to respec. Doesn't rule out the pedulam swinging far to the other side

 

[Khalagar]

I will say, I was too hard on Sex Rex. I think it's still niche just because late game it's uses diminish a lot, but I'm not sure I'd say it's so bad late game that you have to respec to get your points back. It made my already strong axe a lot more trusty

@madmole Has there been any discussion on a health on kill perk or weapon mod? That + Sex Rex would  make it so you could actually do a full melee playthrough a bit easier if you wanted to. Like 5-10 health on kill + Sex Rex giving 30 stamina iirc would let you tear into a decently strong horde and have  a chance at coming out the other side alive

 

[Kiernan531]

I really love this game, just bought it a short time ago but already pumped over 100 hours into it.  While it is great that you are still updating the game to try and fix problems and add content, it really disincentivizes me to play if every time you update it I can no longer play my old saves.  I spent so much time leveling up my character and building up my base defenses and now to play with the new version I have to start the game all over... sure I can opt out of the beta and play an older version, but that is a lot of time downloading and reinstalling versions when I want to change characters, such as when I go from my single player game to my multiplayer game.  And then when another version comes out I would have to start over again... isn't there a way to make it so games could be imported from one version to another?  Skill points could be returned so that players could redistribute them in the new skill trees, removed items could be taken out but all other items left alone, etc.  I've played other early access games that go through several versions but my early saves are still playable in the new builds.

 

[Khalagar]

Starting over is like 90% of the fun between alpha, but if you want to keep using a stable save you will have to wait for the game to go gold some vague time next year~ish (or later). Your saves get broken because major parts of the game get overhauled like terrain, points of interest, animations etc. They try not to break saves on purpose, but the terrain stuff especially is hard to work around

New alphas are great imo, gives you a reason to start over. Instead of putting 100 hours in it and being done, you put 100+ hours in it each alpha and experience all the new changes like the complete overhaul of early game they did this alpha

 

[LilMissNorti]

Landmines are LBW

Learn by Wrenching.

Like Rick just did on Prime's stream...there's a clip and everything 

Now I understand why everyone is hungry. Food and planting perks are minimum at lvl 3 both. They still don't learn or understand what Joel explains to them

I generally have gardening high, but that's cos that's what I do. Cooking however you get so many schematics and books you really don't need Master Chef - I think I only take rank 1 just to get bacon and eggs early.

 

[Blake_]

So what if the steepened cost is exactly the same amount as it costs now? You’d be fine with that? The way it is now you pay a steeper price for a black sheep perk but you also gain the benefit of getting other perks from that attribute for much cheaper not to mention the benefits of the attribute itself for whenever you might use a weapon from that track. 
 

So you would trade those benefits for no benefits but still paying the same steeper price just to get it out of the attribute it’s in?  
 

Instead of thinkIng of it as investing in an attribute you don’t care about, think of it as just the steeper cost for that perk which you already say you are willing to pay.

That is an obvious thing to say. But I am still forced to expend in an attribute I don't wan't to expend. Who are you to force me into getting Strenght, even if it's the most convenient thing in the universe because I also get to use other perks and get a free lollipop out of the bargain?

Another perk page has the benefits of:

1. Not forcing me to expend in an attribute.

2. More screen space for other perks  for the affected attributes in the future.

3. Could be made more straight forward and not even have attribute gates OR be steeper, OR not be steeper OR having a coloured scarf, doesn't matter because the balance problem is solved as nobody forces me to pick strenght.

What kind of game that advertises itself as a roleplaying game  compels you in the lines of :

"sorry dude, you need to be a baker in order to be an efficient plumber, that's just the way it is. I don't know what nonsense are you spitting dude, a baker attribute is cheap and you can get it in no time and you can even pick a fork faster in the future duude. Good balance dude, you are blind."

Like and subscribe dude.

 

[Roland]

I really love this game, just bought it a short time ago but already pumped over 100 hours into it.  While it is great that you are still updating the game to try and fix problems and add content, it really disincentivizes me to play if every time you update it I can no longer play my old saves.  I spent so much time leveling up my character and building up my base defenses and now to play with the new version I have to start the game all over... sure I can opt out of the beta and play an older version, but that is a lot of time downloading and reinstalling versions when I want to change characters, such as when I go from my single player game to my multiplayer game.  And then when another version comes out I would have to start over again... isn't there a way to make it so games could be imported from one version to another?  Skill points could be returned so that players could redistribute them in the new skill trees, removed items could be taken out but all other items left alone, etc.  I've played other early access games that go through several versions but my early saves are still playable in the new builds.

Go to the beta opt in screen on Steam today and opt in to Alpha 18.4 so that when Alpha 19 leaves experimental you won't automatically update to it and then have to reinstall Alpha 18.4. Then you can just continue on with your game. If you are already 100 hours into this save then you are already past 90% of what is new with this update and you are used to the graphics anyway. 

It will probably be at least 5-6 months before the next major update so once you start feeling bored of your current game at that point go ahead and switch over to A19 and start fresh. You will have lots of time before the next necessary restart will hit. These restarts really aren't that often. You just started close to one but the next one won't be for quite awhile.

 

[faatal]

The modding community are always looking for something new / different to make.  DF, RH, WotW, GNA, etc. are examples of complete overhauls of different game designs imo.  It is actually not uncommon for some ideas from the modding community to already be in the TFPs idea repository just not implemented for various reasons.

Primary reasons being we don't like it or time. Time is a huge factor in everything we do. I have dozens of things I would like to do, but they will have to wait weeks or months or never, because there are lots of other tasks to do first and new ones come up every day.