Simple rule: Anything that is blocking zombies from reaching the player without being damaged or wasting resources is an (AI) bug.
Trader compound is the obvious exception.
PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary
- Thread starter madmole
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Trader compound is the obvious exception.
Xtrakicking
New member
A bug is something that isn't supposed to happen. An error. Something gone wrong.
Let's say I build a simple tower with a ramp and a moat. The zombie's AI is made to calculate the easiest way to the player, so then they try to jump the ramp to get me, but fall in the moat. Then in the moat, the AI tells them again that the easiest way to get the player is to go around and jump the ramp, so they try to jump the ramp and fall again. Repeat.
Would you say this is a bug? I'd say it isn't, because the AI is doing exactly what it's programmed to do, and the player isn't trying to break the AI using exploits either, it's just a simple ramp and a moat.
MechanicalLens
New member
I second this. My second base design in A18 used a trench to funnel the zombies down a corridor where I sat behind a vault door and some pole walls. (This was before I knew that horizontally placed poles take 6x more damage than other blocks to zombie hits.) I was still in danger; if the zombies broke through, I was done for really, unless I bailed. Nonetheless, the use of a trench and a corridor is still classed as a manipulation and exploitation of zombie behavior and AI; the line that is drawn for most is, "are you safe or not"?
These kinds of exploits, controversial or not, will always exist; but it's not like they're the only way to play the game, unlike what a lot of people still claim. *Rolls eyes*
Case in point:
On a higher abstraction level my rule could be rephrased as: "Anything that lets you sit somewhere without doing anything for eternity while zombies are trying to get you, breaks the game".
So yes, your example would be a clear AI bug. A solution would be that after the fall they tend to attack supports instead of going back around to the ramp. And not surprisingly Fataal already did such a change to the AI to exactly prevent the endless zombie loop (even though it might or might not need further balancing), so he saw this as a bug to fix as well.
We could argue if this should be called a bug, but even traditionally anything that makes a program behave differently to the intention of the programmer is a bug, even when it doesn't lead to exceptions or error messages.
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I don't exactly get your point. As you yourself said, zombies would reach you unless you expend ammunition to keep them away from the door. I don't care whether some other dude classed this corridor as a bug exploit, I don't and my rule clearly doesn't as well.I second this. My second base design in A18 used a trench to funnel the zombies down a corridor where I sat behind a vault door and some pole walls. (This was before I knew that horizontally placed poles take 6x more damage than other blocks to zombie hits.) I was still in danger; if the zombies broke through, I was done for really, unless I bailed. Nonetheless, the use of a trench and a corridor is still classed as a manipulation and exploitation of zombie behavior and AI; the line that is drawn for most is, "are you safe or not"?
These kinds of exploits, controversial or not, will always exist; but it's not like they're the only way to play the game, unlike what a lot of people still claim. *Rolls eyes*
Case in point:
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MechanicalLens
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My point is that the manipulation and exploitation of zombie AI isn't the issue here; the fact that they think they can safely traverse across sideways wedge tips, for example - seeing them as a normal block - is the problem.
SnowDog1942
Navezgane's Perv
But the plot has a lot do with the show being trash... as I was saying. It also ties in to the fact there are more important things than zombie looks (in my opitnion)
Comprende?
Whether they can or can not traverse sideways wedge tips is part of their AI programming. If it leads to designs where you can safely go afk it is a bug according to my rule. If it makes it ridiculously easy to defend then it is a balancing problem. And if neither is the case it is just an advanced design players learns to use while playing the game (or spoilering themselves while watching streamers)
Xtrakicking
New member
And while I guess it's cool that these things get attention, I worry heavily that the overall useful base designs that a player can come up with during early gameplay will become more limited and narrow by the update, as base designs become obsolete and completely useless because the AI gets too clever.
Early on in the game It's already quite hard to come up with a design that's strong enough to withstand hordes dead on, given that anything below concrete is torn up like butter and that things such as the very expensive spikes and mines last little to nothing. This is why people resort to designs that either try to avoid zombies from damaging the base as much as possible, making them slide or fall through gaps, ramps and moats, or that plainly exploit the AI as much as it possibly can.
Xtrakicking
New member
But again, the plot has nothing to do with what we were talking about, and just because other things might be more important than zombie looks it doesn't mean zombie looks (and the look and feel of a product in general) aren't important, especially considering that the devs invest time and effort in the way the game looks and feels in literally every update. This time around, they are focusing on the zombies (which I think is great, because the new models are looking way better). Therefore, how can you say zombie looks aren't as important if the devs are literally working on exactly that for the next update?
Are you talking about difficulty "insane" and 32 zombies per player ? On beginner difficulty (Adventurer) or Nomad a single player cuts a few trees and digs a little, makes 40 wood spike traps and a sturdy cube made of cobblestone and the first horde night is already done for. And the first thing he would notice in his first week is that there are so many POIs available which he could fortify with minimal effort that he was an idiot to build that cube :wink-new:
It is rather difficult though if you want to start building your end game horde base from day 1. But who does this? Certainly a player playing on higher difficulties should have more sense.
I agree about the mines, I never could make them worth the effort because they mostly damage 1 or 2 zombies and are gone 10 minutes after horde night starts.
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Xtrakicking
New member
I play warrior, 8 zeds per player, and maybe I'm terrible at defending my base, but everytime I've built a cobblestone cube with spikes, or similar, has resulted in failure. Zombies wipe out the spikes in a mere moment, and then go through the wall just as easily in the next one, even if you defend it with your bow/crossbow.
I'm talking, of course, about bases made from scratch, as everyone knows POIs, and specially their roofs and attics, are indeed easy to defend for horde nights.
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I'm a sissy, I barricade myself inside the best POI I can find even on nomad :cocksure: . Even if I thought about building just a cube I would at least start with a big stone boulder to not have to build everything from scratch.
I don't have experience with playing A18 on warrior though, maybe the step from nomad to warrior is much bigger than I think. Maybe on warrior such a simple design needs the player to find cement in POIs or concrete at the trader to have critical parts of the cube in concrete.
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Marinxar
New member
The new arts and graphics and designs looks awesome. TFP is once again preparing a awesome release for us in A19 . Also another step closer to end-game with the trader quests. Looking through those new pics on the first page, really got me excited for the new build, and I think it's time to start calling for the Kraken.
SnowDog1942
Navezgane's Perv
Doesn't matter what I say, cause its only my personal opinion. soo....
Madmole, whats more important?
zombie looks or gameplay?
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MechanicalLens
New member
Just interjecting myself into this conversation here, but I typically play on Nomad (eventually upgrading the difficulty to Warrior and then Insane later on), 16-24 enemy BM count, no loot respawn, no airdrops (as of my last world, and I'm continue that trend), and in the next world that I'll be starting today, I won't be buying any canned food or drinks from vending machines aside from dog food. I also usually play on 90 minute days, but in the next world (again, starting today) I'll be going down to 60 minute days. I typically start off with a double-thick walled 9x9 or 11x11 tower, 5 to 9 blocks high, and I either expand off of that or abandon it for a more permanent base starting by around say 28.
MechanicalLens
New member
I can't wait either personally. I would love it if traders allowed you to select what tier of quest you wanted to tackle, with 3-5 quests for each tier available every given day as you progressed through the tiers of quests (ie 1-5). Of course though, this would just open the door for players to farm T1 quests until they unlocked tier 5 quests, thus a system would have to be put in place where only the direct predecessor quests could unlock the next tier. (Assuming this system could be, and would be, brought to the game, of course. I love questing, but going to the trader once they unlock T5 quests and expecting 4-5 T5 quests every time can get a bit... monotonous? Is that the right word?)
Xtrakicking
New member
Why even bother debate something if you're just gonna brush off everything that the other person sa... ?
Ohhh wait, the new forums didn't save the blocked users list. Now I get it. :wink-new:
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