PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hey @madmole, I am liking the direction you guys are taking the game, except for one element that has been bugging me for a long time:
Zombie Vultures. Not just because they are significantly less interesting than the giant hornets, but because they are (in their current state) bad for the game in my opinion. Almost completely silent, very tiny hitboxed creatures that can fly. I understand the necessity of an aerial threat in this game to prevent easy camping from roofs and to keep people's guards up, but the way these birds have been designed is legitimately unfair.

The hornets were far better designed for the game than the vultures because they game some warning to the player that they were nearby with their buzzing (although it was annoying, it's better than complete silence). If you want the vultures to be sneaky and to catch the player by surprise, that's fine, I can actually agree with that--but some noise is needed here. Maybe their wing flapping can only be heard within about 6 blocks or so, just to give the player a chance to respond instead of suddenly ♥♥♥♥ting themselves when a completely undetectable bird starts swiping away at their health. The standard zombies are much better in this aspect, I can get snuck up on by a zombie from behind while I'm looting but at least I'm able to hear some footsteps or a mumble so I at least have a chance of responding before I get hit. When I get hit by a sneaky zombie I feel stupid and try to be more aware of my surroundings. Whenever I get hit by a silent flying creature from out of nowhere, I get really mad. It's not fun.

Another reason why the hornets were much better was because their hitboxes were large enough to the point where they weren't frustrating to fight. I gotta say it's really annoying to miss 3 melee attacks in a row when the point blank hitbox is so thin it just grazes right over them. This seems to be a general issue with melee attacks in the game (I'm currently using the knife in this play through, is this intentional?), but it is extremely prevalent with vultures. I have never had fun fighting a vulture in this game, but I have had enjoyment shooting down a bee from the air or beating it to death with a club because I am not cursing at my screen when my attack misses such a tiny object that is inflicting bleed and infection on me.

And thematically speaking, I miss the hornets. If you guys don't want to bring them back I understand, but they were legitimately the most interesting enemies in the game, especially when you came across giant honey combs in the burnt forest and saw a whole swarm nearby. "Whoa these hornets are huge! Where did they come from? Are they even zombies? Are they experiments? There's so many of them!" Zombie vultures are just... kind of lame. "Oh, a rotten bird. Hm."
Click to expand...
You could have said, hey can you have a look at the cheap stealth attacks from vultures? Also they are kind of hard to hit.

 
I think the vultures are a better fit than the bees were. Unlike dog packs, I dont think they need a warning sound as their attacks are not as lethal.
I love how they stalk the player when their health is low which ticks that realism niche for me.
Click to expand...
An attack being weak doesn't justify a complete lack of telegraph, that's against the interest of good game design. It is incredibly frustrating for players to be robbed of resources (in this case HP) due to having absolutely no warning of an event. The zombie vulture is the antithesis of good game design in this aspect, so I will compare it to the opposite case, the best designed enemy in the game--the zombie cop.

The zombie cop's bile spit doesn't do too much damage but you are given plenty of warning before it happens, both audibly and visually. Following your "weak attacks don't need telegraph" logic, what if the spit was nearly instant and the cop made no noise? It doesn't do all that much damage so it doesn't matter, right? It can't even inflict bleed!

Another great way the cop is designed is the loud heartbeat and sprinting before it explodes, yet again the player is given plenty of warning of the incoming attack. What if it was ready to blow it just... blew up. You would be pretty frustrated. It does a ton of damage, so TFP made the right choice in warning the player. Good game design prevails!

But in the case of the vulture, the only warning you get is the rare groan from an attacking vulture, although this is most often well after they've already landed 3 hits on you. I agree the way they attack when the player is low is quite cool, but considering that they're only attacking you when you're damaged that would further increase the need for a warning, no? Can you imagine how infuriating it would be to be attacked out of nowhere on 15 health and instantly start bleeding? It's happened to me before, and it has never felt fair. There was nothing I could have done to prevent that because I didn't even know the enemy was there in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

You could have said, hey can you have a look at the cheap stealth attacks from vultures? Also they are kind of hard to hit.
Click to expand...
Well I was trying to be thorough in my reasoning, I didn't want to come across as some amateur who's just raging on the forums.

 
Always??? It has taken you guys more than a few years to end up with this decision. Everything up to A16 showed something completely different than what you say here.. So either you changed your mind or you just wasnt good enough to make what you wanted before... Then again you change your mind about what is good more often than some people here change underwear.
In any case I'm not complaining, I've had more than my fair share of fun in the past. I'm sure you find new customers with your constant changes. Money talks.
Click to expand...
No its taken you a few years to see the obvious. Go watch the ks video and tell me it doesn't have a fallout meets the walking dead vibe. "The game takes place in the near future where a third world war has left the earth in ruins". If that doesn't scream like Fallout then you were asleep.

It goes on to talk about skills, bandits etc all stuff similar to the Fallout universe. One look at the wasteland gives the game a Fallout vibe to me.

Constant changes? Its alpha. We try things and if we don't like them or the public hates them we change them again. It is normal for early access. Maybe other devs don't have the time or budget to change things or they are happy with how they were so it doesn't happen as much. Rust changes ♥♥♥♥ all the time, and Ark nerfed the fliers, so I know it happens in the other EA games I played.

Money is nice but we make the best game we can, that we want to play. We must be doing something right there are 19,000 players right now on a Tuesday afternoon and sales continue to rise since A18 launched experimental. Sorry its not alpha ___ any more but that ♥♥♥♥ wasn't that great. A18 is the future of the game, we're not changing too much moving forward, just adding stuff.

 
, art is started on the junk sledge.
Click to expand...



Ok I may be VERY DUMB BUT!

whats a sledge??? when i searched it up i came up with Sled and im confused about it!

but can't wait to see the Junker drone art

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I was referring to A18.
Click to expand...
From a consumer's perspective,a18 is weapons meh but turrets nice, models meh ,optimization meh and balance wow. The core gameplay balance that YOU did was 70% of a18.

It wouldn't have been so apparent if there wasn't a solid "everything polished", but it came in the right moment at the right time. The most heroic deeds in development aren't usually the ones that take most time but the ones that steer the mighty ship to safety.

Edit: While I've never seen 7dtd more optimized than in its current state, a18 had a rough landing on that front due to the new render pipeline wip, texture streaming bugs and GPU and OS problems.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hey Laz, good morning to you or probably afternoon by now.
I wrapped up the new food descriptions for gumbo stew, etc.

Last week I integrated lots of new weapons like stone axe, wrench, pickaxes, iron fire axe etc.

I've been mostly doing management level stuff getting all the tasks written for all the firearms, that includes implementing new pbr versions of old weapons.

New candy should be completed this week, and perk overhaul is very close too, all in Gazz's hands though. Icons and desc's are done.

I've been combing over ISS and the junk drone designs getting ready to start tasking those, art is started on the junk sledge. Junk drone concept art is done.

I won't be doing any testing until about everything is ready.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the details. Sounds like alot of cool new stuff. What are you most excited about currently?

 
For a consumer's perspective,a18 is weapons meh but turrets nice
Click to expand...
i disagree about the weapons. i love nearly all of them and you aren't just using a Iron club all day!

heck i love nearly all of them! the Stun baton is fun to use's , Spears while i would change a few things i still love them, Brawling is fun while i think the knuckle wraps could use's a small buff its fine, the Double barrel is My Fav weapon i just wished i could give it a long hunting barrel.

Aside from a few pet peeves, i love all weapons! and i can't wait for the "Tactical Assault Rifle" that may be My favored weapon just for the look!

 
Money is nice but we make the best game we can, that we want to play. We must be doing something right there are 19,000 players right now on a Tuesday afternoon and sales continue to rise since A18 launched experimental. Sorry its not alpha ___ any more but that ♥♥♥♥ wasn't that great. A18 is the future of the game, we're not changing too much moving forward, just adding stuff.
Click to expand...
I have to say all this gold talk last year scared me and made me panic a bit, but with A18 you guys proved us Nay-sayers wrong and delivered an awesome Update. Im gonna be honest here, after A17 i kinda lost hope and feared you guys would rush for Gold and start the next game.

But even tho its rumored that you guys will do another game, it doesnt feel like you are giving up 7 Days anytime soon and im thankful for that.

After i sunk 500ish Hours into A18 alone im taking a break but i cant wait to see what you guys are cooking up for A19 or A20.

All that i read about A19 here makes me drool and im very curious how you are going to pull off the Drone.

Im staying tuned and please keep up the good work.

 
i disagree about the weapons. i love nearly all of them and you aren't just using a Iron club all day!

heck i love nearly all of them! the Stun baton is fun to use's , Spears while i would change a few things i still love them, Brawling is fun while i think the knuckle wraps could use's a small buff its fine, the Double barrel is My Fav weapon i just wished i could give it a long hunting barrel.

Aside from a few pet peeves, i love all weapons! and i can't wait for the "Tactical Assault Rifle" that may be My favored weapon just for the look!
Click to expand...
And I agree with you. My comment is a mixup of people's thoughts in my coop games. I like objectivity, and while millenials are usually harsh, I do think content is inferior to balance on the list of changes.

Gameplay can turn a club and a couple of stones into loads of enjoyment.

 
Hi MM, a while ago you talked about an evolving system similar to the Fallout one in which you fill the cleared POIs with different threats each time you go there on a quest or certain time passes.
Those POIs would have the bandits, the cake and all the beauties with the npc AI of course.

On the same line, nowadays there are games that have some interesting evolving AI that result in a rich experience.

Have you thought of making an npc that behaves like a survivor, has a bit of level/hp advantage and performs tasks in real time while occupying the server slot of a human player? Looks like a Pimp Dream from the outside, but also seems to me that as of now, your team might be able to pull it off.

idk, what is your take on this matter?
Click to expand...
We haven't thought about bots, (Npcs that level up and act like a human player) but will have normal npcs like traders, bandits, etc. They won't have much of a life other than to server their purpose. It sounds like a cool mod for a college programmer to tackle though, full on npcs that level up, farm, fight zeds, go looting, attack you if you threaten them or because they rolled evil on their character roll.

 
*
Click to expand...
I agree with the hit boxes, I always miss head or neck and the swiping motion of most melee weapon makes that an unexpected failure. I probably should change my habit and try to hit the lower body instead. Still, I don't like the neck hitbox at aĺl

About the silence though: There is a big difference between cop and vulture, a cop can attack you any time and place. You have no chance to plan ahead

A vulture will generally attack you in two situations only and you can prepare:

1) When you are low health. Check the skies where they are clearly visible most of the time (well, don't try this under a tree :cocksure: ).

2) When you enter a roof. Again you have the advantage, just look for the vultures hidden in plain sight.

 
I'm down for having Vultures and Hornets.Forest/ burnt Forest: Hornets.

Snow and Desert: vultures.

Wastelands: Both.
Click to expand...
A lot of people hated the hornets and thought it was off theme. Maybe they too didn't realize it was a game inspired from Fallout with mutated stuff.

 
From a consumer's perspective,a18 is weapons meh...
Click to expand...
Maybe for you personally but the spear alone made A18 incredibly exciting. For 6 years the community had been asking for a spear and we got it in A18. There is nothing meh about that.

And that doesn't even include the other new weapons that were added.

I'm betting that most consumers were both very excited to get their hands on A18 and happy about what they got from A18 in the weapons department. The trick in speaking for general consumers is to not let your own personal preferences get in the way. Look at the history and the results. Historically, no other alpha delivered as many new and unique weapons as A18 did and the huge number of consumer requests for a spear which was fulfilled in A18 point to a different picture than you are painting. The results are an Alpha that is not only the most popular but is going to be the most popular for the longest period of time. Seeing as how new weapons were a big part of this alpha it is hard to dismiss them as simply meh in the minds of consumers.

My only gripe is that I wish you could have multiple spears on your belt and the game would remember the slots for all of them instead of just the first one. If I want to be an Aiel I should be allowed to be an Aiel.

 
And I agree with you. My comment is a mixup of people's thoughts in my coop games. I like objectivity, and while millenials are usually harsh, I do think content is inferior to balance on the list of changes.Gameplay can turn a club and a couple of stones into loads of enjoyment.
Click to expand...
oh my bad i didnt mean it like that

 
A lot of people hated the hornets and thought it was off theme. Maybe they too didn't realize it was a game inspired from Fallout with mutated stuff.
Click to expand...
I always liked the hornets. Maybe not the AI they had at the time, but the hornets themselves. If I am not mistaken, your KS deal said there was going to be mutants and stuff, so they fit the theme.

Edit: was nothing like seeing a swarm of them gathered in the wasteland city. ;)

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top