PC Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

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Demolisher feedback:

In a 2 player coop game, they appear far too early (< day 28), and in greater numbers than can be reasonably handled (2-3 at a time).

If one detonates during a 7 day horde, it can punch a hole through iron bars on it's own. At that point, its not when, but if, you will die. Tone down the explosion block damage. They completely wreck any and all electrical defenses.

If it's detonation countdown begins, it cannot be stopped, and is too easy to trigger. Unfun.

Once it is dead, it's detonation countdown can still be triggered. Unfun.

Blade traps at *head height* will trigger it, and means all your defenses are guaranteed to get wrecked. Unfun.

Their sole purpose seems to be to screw over legit base designs. Cheese fall/ramp loop bases still work. No tactics are required, or even work: just cheese it, drive all night, or get breached.

I'm sure in design, someone thought they would be scary. They're not. They're just overpowered to the point of annoyance. Been playing since A12. This is the first time I genuinely thought about quitting, and I'm normally super forgiving about this stuff.

Thematic note #1: How does one become zombified whilst an *active* demo charge is strapped to your chest. The mob makes no sense.

Thematic note #2: It's too similar to cops, who, tbh, now that they can spit through bars, are far more interesting (and scary) to deal with.

In short, the demolisher is redundant, boring, annoying, overpowered, and add very little to the game that cops don't already, besides being a bullet sponge.

 
I think you got that backwards.You can specialise very well.

What you want is to master everything at the same time. That's the opposite of specialisation. =P
You can specialise, but only in the way the current perks allow you too.

I don't want to specialise in that way. I'm not interested in armor, not interested in demolitions, not intersted in building vehicles, not in bladed weapons... i want my mr-10, i want cooking and farming. If i want this maxed out i need to push 3 of 5 attributes to the max. It is at least far more skillpoint intensive like just an agility-build, which of course only uses perks which are in the agility tree anyway.

 
Honestly I'd replace buried supplies with crafting quests and provide quests for people that are less combat oriented.
For instance food quests, bring me 20 grilled meat, 20 hardboiled eggs, etc.

Crafting - Bring me 3 bows and 100 arrows, etc.
Have you played too few MMORPG asia grinders lately :cocksure: ? Sorry, but IMHO that's the worst kind of quest to add.

 
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I keep checking the news and announcement forum each day for news of some crafter love. Am I wasting my time?
What is it you want to craft? Or is it you don't need to craft, or is it you cannot craft the best gear?

 
To summarize: FP made a game I can’t finish, according to my own rules – a game that I just can’t enjoy as I have before. I mean I can still play it, but there is something missing, you know? That illusive “je ne sais quoi”. And that definitely is not just the matter of adjusting loot tables. It is the matter of persistent promoting of looting at a cost of crafting. Promoting “dumb luck” instead of thoughtful character development. The matter of game that abandoned realism in favor of its own inconsistent ruleset. Some examples:- The farm plots needs 100 clay soil, which is over 6 times as much soil as a topsoil block; Even if one could compress so much material in the same volume of space, it would have been so hard that one could not push the seed in;

- The auger can be “researched” before the crucible, which is necessary to make steel, but auger is made out of steel. So HOW the first guy (or girl) who designed the auger was able to do it without the major component?!?

- The exploding or fire steel crossbow bolts and steel arrows can be learned through separate schematics, but somehow once you can make them, you still can’t make regular steel bolts or arrows – and yet the recipes clearly show that those are the same bolts and arrows, just with something attached to them;

- Crafting tools or weapons requires MORE resources as you gain the skill (by advancing main perk), but some other perks make you use LESS resources when crafting. Which way is skillful use of resources counted in this reality?

- Food cooked from fresh ingredients has a 4% chance of getting you really sick, but a can made from rotting flesh does not (can of sham);

- Boiled water has a chance to give you dysentery, and eaten yucca fruit has a chance to make you sick, but if you just squeeze it into boiled water, the result is perfectly safe to consume.

I have only one thing to praise really: the game runs better in A18 – optimization team did well.

I have a plan about what to do next: I will mod the ***t out of this game, either by finding mods that have something I want, or I’ll add/change it myself (I have been checking out the game files for a few last days). This will include several key elements which, I think, will make the game harder and yet more enjoyable:

a) I will put back taken out recipes for parts and items; not because I need them, but because they should be in the game if I want to craft those items. I will also bring back crafting T6 items.

b) I will add permissions to craft most items that now can be crafted only via schematic to some perk for instance steel tools will be added to Advanced Engineering T4, alongside the crucible, which I will move from T5 ( and move mechanical tools to T5). I also might add a new workstation for making steel – a new forge. Many mods have them and I fail to see why FP would not put them into the game. I mean what is the better way to restrict creating a steel tool than to restrict access to the workstation at which one can make steel tools? The recipe for it will be added to least common chest (or maybe I will add a new chest in T5 POI, depends how hard it will prove). And maybe the trader will have it.

c) I will add the recipes for tool heads – fire axe head, hammer head etc. They will require forge and anvil for iron and forge and crucible for steel (or maybe said new advanced forge for steel). Handles you can make in hand, but one cannot form a metal part without heating the metal and forming it while it’s hot (not without industrial machines with casting forms).

d) I might add a new workstation for creating firearms more advanced than blunderbuss and sawed off shotgun. With the same principle as the advanced forge for getting the schematic.

e) I will remove rotting flesh from cooking recipes and remove the sickness chance on eating/drinking freshly cooked food/drinks. Instead I might add a permanent chance of getting sick if you do not clean yourself up (with soap made from animal fat and coal). Or maybe I’ll add food spoilage like the one in Starvation mod.

f) I will remove rotting flesh from farming plot recipe, replace it with plant fibers. I will make the count of soil required into something reasonable. Maybe I’ll even add a “cleansing machine” workstation for creating the farm plots. I will also remove recipes for seeds, but add seeds to traders offer. I mean there was a contagion event (Madmole mentioned radiation, but it could not be that because there is no anti-radiation cure in this game), and all food and plants are contaminated, right? Seeds are more resilient, and those found or bought are pre-event seeds free of the virus/bacteria. And you farm then only in clean farm plots.

g) I definitely will bring back iron ore – I just can’t look at mining scrap iron ;)

h) I will remove the “growing cost” mechanics from recipes. I probably will also remove “less cost” mechanic from perks, but that is something to ponder on (whether it will actually make a difference). The “magical parts” might even stay in the game – one will not have to gather them for weeks to make a decent tool or weapon.

i) I will either revert to old repair style or introduce more costly repair kits. My initial thought was to make one repair station with contents of which you repair stuff, but that would be too stationary solution (although most realistic one). So now I am pondering on one repair kit with 10 repair charges (it would require changing the repair mechanic itself) or bundle of repair kits. Both made with say 10 forged iron, two duct tapes, one glue, two pieces of wood, two oils, cloth, small rock, one brass, and one lead. The idea is that you make disposable kit with simple tools and bolts, screws and screw washers, pliers etc. and you fix with it until the contents run out, than make another one. Because one can’t fix everything with duct tape, unless in a joke.

j) I will make the increment of XP increase per level 2%, not 5%, so that the character can actually make it to level 300 in affordable amount of time. Might have to change gamestage increase a bit, as well, but this will require testing.

Those changes should make this game feel worth playing again, for me off course. I do not expect FP to include them in their further work on this game. Frankly my idea of this game and their idea are become two things more and more apart. I thought this game would be a single-player or multi-player RPG where once one learned how to, one would be able to create a safe-haven base (or many such places) for NPC’s. Make contacts, trade, do various quests (not only search&destroy). Rebuild the society, even. Find a cure for the infection. FP are making this, in my opinion, into an action game with more places to loot and no main plot (so far). That really makes me sad.
Thank you for your detailed post although it could have been much shorter and said more.

You made a few valid points, but your methods of solving them would not be improvements. The only half decent idea is making pickaxe heads in a forge but that is just an abstract that simply improves immersion but affects game play 0%. I don't think you will be happy with the outcome of your efforts, even though you think you know what you are doing you don't understand game psychology. You talked about not ever having a problem for food, yet you want to make huge farms available on day one and remove all risks of food contamination through cooking.

You want to sit on your ass and craft all the parts? How will that make you feel accomplished or challenged?

You will even be crafting high tier weapons and tools, magically? You talk about immersion, yet you will craft the best gear on the planet without even once reading a schematic? You must have modded INT to go to 20 or 30 to be that smart. ;)

Oh a new workstation? Great, I suppose you craft it as well, from sharp sticks perhaps? Adding new workstations doesn't do anything. Its just a gate. Imagine repair at a repair bench? No field repair? No thanks.

And you want to be level 300. I get it. You are one of those guys who enjoyed A16 because you sat on your ass, grinding in your fort and were uber powerful by day 30 from minimal grindy thoughtless activities. Maybe the game wasn't better then, it was just newer. You used a bow until you found the parts to make a gun. Yeah we've heard this story before. We can solve the same problem by making level 100 the max level, then you will have time to "finish the game".

I hope this didn't sound disrespectful, I'm merely being devils advocate to your ideas as we've tried and talked about every mechanic on the planet. We've thrown away more alphas than we've ever made. Your first post was on point about many topics, but how to solve these problems is the complicated part. Players are good at identifying "feelings they have" but not so good at solving them.

Our aim was to make people work for their things, not sit in the base crafting everything or squat on cacti to gain XP. Crafting has taken a back seat but we are working on it. The fact is our steam rating is now 93%, the highest its ever been. I'm sorry if we lost you in the process, and we can relate to some of your issues regarding immersion, crafting needing some love but we have to be very careful, 93 percent approval rating most likely means to make you happy we piss of 93 percent of our current audience. Balance and a few small tweaks will get crafting the love it needs. We're working on a new progression table that should encourage crafting because progression will out pace loot. Currently its pretty much opposite.

 
You can specialise, but only in the way the current perks allow you too.
I don't want to specialise in that way. I'm not interested in armor, not interested in demolitions, not intersted in building vehicles, not in bladed weapons... i want my mr-10, i want cooking and farming. If i want this maxed out i need to push 3 of 5 attributes to the max. It is at least far more skillpoint intensive like just an agility-build, which of course only uses perks which are in the agility tree anyway.
Yes, exactly.

If you don't want to make any decisions you can mod the game so that all your desired perks are under 1 attribute.

Then you can be the most awesome tankmage engineer (or whatever you fancy), by level 50 or 60.

 
Have you played too few MMORPG asia grinders lately :cocksure: ? Sorry, but IMHO that's the worst kind of quest to add.
It's more realistic especially when NPC's are added to bring supplies, food, weapons, etc to the traders then it is to go and kill these zombies in a building 2km away that aren't causing any issues for him.........

I mean we'd have a lot less fetch quests and buried treasure quests if the people the trader sent out had actual gear to live and didn't need us to retrieve their bags after they died.

The quests would just be another option, also something people could work on at night for instance if they didn't want to go out.

It would also provide incentive to have a varied farm and not just grow 1 type of food so you can meet any demands of the trader as well. Lots of possibilities to the types of quests such as bringing raw resources, finished goods, minimum quality of items, etc. Could even present a list and let the user choose what items you want to deliver from a list.

 
But people can already nuke a POI with a dozen dynamites or rockets by strategically placing them all around it. So what you're afraid of happening is already happening.
And they earned it. I'm not afraid of it happening, I want it to be something not easily done with non expendable equipment.

 
Yes, exactly.
If you don't want to make any decisions you can mod the game so that all your desired perks are under 1 attribute.
Hu? Are we talking about the same? I WANT to make my own decisions, instead just do what the game "tells" me to do.

The current skillsystem does force me to specific skills if i want to use my skillpoints effectivley. If i do not want to take one of these i have to invest much more skillpoints to be specialised in the same amount of skills.

Why are clubs and shotguns tied together? I e.g. want to use shotguns and blades, that's not more allround, but just a different choice with the same amount of skills. To get the weapon-specific-perks to the same level i need to invest much more skillpoints to achieve the same with blades and shotguns as i get when going with clubs and shotguns (like the game "tells" me to do), because i need to skill strength AND agility (iirc).

And yes, that is a decision i want to make! Of course i can still make it, but it will cost a lot of additional skillpoints. Why?

 
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I think the attributes need to be renamed. Calling them Strength, Intellect, Etc really confuses people when they see stuff under them that they feel is better in another stat.
If you gave them names based around the job, that would probably eliminate a lot of the issues people have with saying well why is cooking under strength for instance.

Aka call Strength Close Combat or something, Agility Ninja, Intellect Mad Scientist, etc. Something that people won't see and go oh thats a strength perk
The first thing you learn to do as a bodybuilder is cook and count your macros. Even fortitude is less deserving of cooking IMO.

 
I kind of agree. For example, It’s just natural for people who want to be stronger in melee to put points in strength. Then you find out it doesn’t help with your melee weapon of choice, but it does increase shotgun damage. You end up saying. WTF?
Throwing a spear takes more technique and practice (perception) than raw strength. Using a knife is about speed. Often as you know, in UFC when things get ugly and two guys start throwing bombs, the one with the good chin (tough/fortitude) is the last man standing.

We had the strength for all melee, perception for all rifles... and it sucked remember? A17? What makes sense or is realistic is almost always bad for game design.

 
I think they should be separated. There are the 5 basic attributes (Strength, Intelligence, Agility) and on the other hand there should be perks. While the basic attributes affect everything, the perks go for specific items.

Lets say increasing the basic attribute strength makes all weapons (melee and ranged) do more damage, also higher blockdamage

Increasing agility makes all weapons attacking faster, increases movement speed

Fortitude increases chance of dismember for all weapons.

Perception increases aim accuracy for all weapons.

Maybe even intellect doesn't give you any combat bonuses, but faster crafting, ...

...

Then come the perks which may still require a minimum of points in different basic attributes. They allow you to further spezialize in what you like.

Like it was already in diablo. On the left site your basic attributes, on the right side your skills.

What i dislike a little in A18 is that you cannot (effective) combine melee and ranged weapons at will.

Iirc agility buffs handguns and blade weapons, while strength buffs clubs and shotguns. So it would be very skill-ineffective to use a shotgun as ranged weapon and blade weapons for melee.

Also if i want to skill living of the land and master chef, i'm forced to strength and fortitude. So already assault rifles or shotguns and clubs or whatever melee weapon fortitiude uses.

If i want to hunt additionally you need perception, too. And various perks are locked to high level attributes, so no way of specialising left, just because you want to have 3 perks.
That would only work if we decoupled perks from attributes. Otherwise everyone would need every attribute at 10 like in A17.

 
Demolisher feedback:
In a 2 player coop game, they appear far too early (< day 28), and in greater numbers than can be reasonably handled (2-3 at a time).

If one detonates during a 7 day horde, it can punch a hole through iron bars on it's own. At that point, its not when, but if, you will die. Tone down the explosion block damage. They completely wreck any and all electrical defenses.
Not even close. All you do is build a basic solid foundation 3 meters high to stand on and you are fine. One who puts nothing but an iron bar between him and death has nothing to blame for his demise but himself.
 
Yes, exactly.
If you don't want to make any decisions you can mod the game so that all your desired perks are under 1 attribute.

Then you can be the most awesome tankmage engineer (or whatever you fancy), by level 50 or 60.
#Tankmageengineer Let's petition to get this added asap! =)

 
It's more realistic especially when NPC's are added to bring supplies, food, weapons, etc to the traders then it is to go and kill these zombies in a building 2km away that aren't causing any issues for him.........
I mean we'd have a lot less fetch quests and buried treasure quests if the people the trader sent out had actual gear to live and didn't need us to retrieve their bags after they died.

The quests would just be another option, also something people could work on at night for instance if they didn't want to go out.

It would also provide incentive to have a varied farm and not just grow 1 type of food so you can meet any demands of the trader as well. Lots of possibilities to the types of quests such as bringing raw resources, finished goods, minimum quality of items, etc. Could even present a list and let the user choose what items you want to deliver from a list.
We're planning some gathering quests.

 
Throwing a spear takes more technique and practice (perception) than raw strength. Using a knife is about speed. Often as you know, in UFC when things get ugly and two guys start throwing bombs, the one with the good chin (tough/fortitude) is the last man standing.
We had the strength for all melee, perception for all rifles... and it sucked remember? A17? What makes sense or is realistic is almost always bad for game design.
I agree it’s better now. The dude I quoted was advocating for renaming strength and agility etc to something that fits the trees better. I wasn’t advocating for a regression to A17 skill trees, trust me :)

 
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Hu? Are we talking about the same? I WANT to make my own decisions, instead just do what the game "tells" me to do. The current skillsystem does force me to specific skills if i want to use my skillpoints effectivley. If i do not want to take one of these i have to invest much more skillpoints to be specialised in the same amount of skills.

Why are clubs and shotguns tied together? I e.g. want to use shotguns and blades, that's not more allround, but just a different choice with the same amount of skills. To get the weapon-specific-perks to the same level i need to invest much more skillpoints to achieve the same with blades and shotguns as i get when going with clubs and shotguns (like the game "tells" me to do), because i need to skill strength AND agility (iirc).

And yes, that is a decision i want to make! Of course i can still make it, but it will cost a lot of additional skillpoints. Why?
Because we make the rules. In our universe you need to be strong to use a shotgun and agile to use a blade. Mod it out and swap the knife with the club if that is your fantasy. We can't fulfill every combination of every fantasy to make every player happy. We do what we feel are nice buckets for average guys. LBD let you do what you wanted, but at a grindy stupid cost, we feel that attributes are better as there is actual choice instead of grind to be awesome at everything.

 
Thank you for your detailed post although it could have been much shorter and said more.
You made a few valid points, but your methods of solving them would not be improvements. The only half decent idea is making pickaxe heads in a forge but that is just an abstract that simply improves immersion but affects game play 0%. I don't think you will be happy with the outcome of your efforts, even though you think you know what you are doing you don't understand game psychology. You talked about not ever having a problem for food, yet you want to make huge farms available on day one and remove all risks of food contamination through cooking.

You want to sit on your ass and craft all the parts? How will that make you feel accomplished or challenged?

You will even be crafting high tier weapons and tools, magically? You talk about immersion, yet you will craft the best gear on the planet without even once reading a schematic? You must have modded INT to go to 20 or 30 to be that smart. ;)

Oh a new workstation? Great, I suppose you craft it as well, from sharp sticks perhaps? Adding new workstations doesn't do anything. Its just a gate. Imagine repair at a repair bench? No field repair? No thanks.

And you want to be level 300. I get it. You are one of those guys who enjoyed A16 because you sat on your ass, grinding in your fort and were uber powerful by day 30 from minimal grindy thoughtless activities. Maybe the game wasn't better then, it was just newer. You used a bow until you found the parts to make a gun. Yeah we've heard this story before. We can solve the same problem by making level 100 the max level, then you will have time to "finish the game".

I hope this didn't sound disrespectful, I'm merely being devils advocate to your ideas as we've tried and talked about every mechanic on the planet. We've thrown away more alphas than we've ever made. Your first post was on point about many topics, but how to solve these problems is the complicated part. Players are good at identifying "feelings they have" but not so good at solving them.

Our aim was to make people work for their things, not sit in the base crafting everything or squat on cacti to gain XP. Crafting has taken a back seat but we are working on it. The fact is our steam rating is now 93%, the highest its ever been. I'm sorry if we lost you in the process, and we can relate to some of your issues regarding immersion, crafting needing some love but we have to be very careful, 93 percent approval rating most likely means to make you happy we piss of 93 percent of our current audience. Balance and a few small tweaks will get crafting the love it needs. We're working on a new progression table that should encourage crafting because progression will out pace loot. Currently its pretty much opposite.
Congratulations on your Steam rating! Unfortunately for many of us we just can’t play your game without mods like Ravenhearst. You guys seem to take 2 steps forwards 2 steps back with your development, you took out the fov slider ffs making the unplayable for many of us, and seem to redo the same damn feature 5 times instead of doing it correctly the first time with some tweaks after. And your arrogant attitude doesn't help. But hey, your 93% rating on steam must mean our criticism isn't valid.

 
@Louie04k

Oh, it is valid - for a very small number of players.

That's why mods exist. Mods are used by a small portion of the player base to have very specific game experiences.

There is nothing wrong with that.

 
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