PC Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

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I disagree, which automatically invalidates your argument. It's funny that you say there's no reason to take light armor, and immediately afterwards say heavy armor should have more protection! But the mobility difference, particularly when it comes to stamina usage and noise making, is huge in my opinion. I can't stand wearing heavy armor, which I do on horde nights, so I always get to see the difference. And, mind you, padded armor has no mobility penalty, making it a class of its own.
I do agree that armor protection should be much more spread, and I think quality should make a difference in protection. As it is, you can find a purple steel armor that is worse than a brown iron armor, and that's just wrong.

I do love the change to what the armor skills do. It's finally worth putting points in them.
I do wish the heavy armor skill had a bigger effect though. I usually wear the padded armor for quite a long time, usually until I'm dealing mostly with ferals, or whenever I get a vehicle with decent storage like a minibike, so if I become encumbered I can just dump loot into that. I like how it doesn't have any stamina or movement hits on the padded armor.

 
We're planning some kind of chunk reset code we could call it after its turned in. I doubt anyone will be driving off road much once vehicles are balanced.
I don't like the sound of this, leave them alone please, they are fine and don't need to be messed with. Traveling on foot is slow as hell in the game, don't force us to have to do that anytime there is a small hill or bump somewhere.

 
but as a World Renowned chef that I am (not) Corn meal is not Flour.
I didn't say that it is the same. But its EXACTLY the same mechanics. Rename corn to wheat and corn meal to flour and you have exactly the same. Are you happy then? Why should this be better? And as i already said, for a special asian release, we need to replace it with rice, because they will complain about both corn and wheat, because they use rice.

So what exactly is the advantage of introducing wheat? Just one item more, no new mechanics, no really new receipes, just more receips which need a changed ingredient, just because you want to have wheat? You are even more pushy then some vegetarians. ;)

 
EDIT NOTE: this text was written in parts over several days of time, as I just did not have enough free time to write it in one go. So it is about game state up to A18.1 (b7) and might omit some comments and/or notes from the developers posted in recent days.

Hi. I’m new to this forum although I have a few thousands of hours of gameplay time in 7 Days to Die – I have played this game since A14. I just never felt the need to write to the developers because, as up to A16 my expectations of the game were mostly satisfied and in A17 my expectations were shattered – LBD was gone (one of the key elements that caused me to buy this title). Now, reading this thread, I have confirmed that realism has been thrown out of the window for this world based on Arizona, USA. This makes it writing about realism kind off superfluous, right? I’ve decided to write now, because two weeks ago I was at a sci-fi convention, where there was a panel named “suspension of disbelief” – folk creating fantasy worlds were taking with public about how a world needs to entice a reader / player into believing that what the characters are doing is possible (even if it is not IRL). So realism is important, but also the presentation of the book/movie/game matters. The fantasy world needs to have a consistent set of rules (not “because magic works, anything is possible”, even magic has to have rules and limitations). For a computer game this means a lot of things, including balance. This is thread about feedback on balance, so here it goes.

Before I do write about the game I have a few words, so that you understand my opinion on A18 (played on stable up to A18.1 b7) better. You see to me a “Survival” game is not just about finding stuff and killing enemies to live, it is about forming a strategy, developing your character, learning new techniques and surviving by your own merit, not the pure luck of RNG, and the more realistic it feels, the better. I have uncommon way to play this game (judging by the YouTube channels I follow), namely I play the game to the very end (as all games I deem worthy of my time). By that I mean I end the game when I do the main quest line and all of the side quests (or fail them), I develop my character to the full (even if this means delaying ending the main quest line), and I get all the best items (if possible). And this is how I played 7DtD, with one exception: I play only the first game on the new alpha with resurrection (to learn the rules), all subsequent games are on perma-death condition – If I die (even by my own silly mistake) I start all over. The same goes for games on large mods like War of the Walkers, Ravenhearst or my favorite: Starvation. This means long games (over 150 days sometimes) and somewhat cautious approach to dangers of the game. Game bugs do not count, mind you. My playstyle would usually include raiding single farms/buildings, than small settlements, and when I was good and ready the big towns. I play mostly on Warrior difficulty, 120 minute days, Drops on, all other setting on default – those are the settings for A18 campaign as well.

One game in each alpha I toy with settings a bit: play on insane difficulty or add more zeds to the blood moon horde. I came to the conclusion that those changes mean only one thing - you need MORE: more ammo, more concrete or steel for walls, more resources for the defenses. I did not need to rethink my strategy or defense tactic, I just needed to grind more to get what was needed. That is tedious, not more difficult, IMO. So please: do not tell me to play on insane in A18 or with 64 zombie hordes.

My opinion about this alpha is that it is the EASIEST of the versions of this game that I played. I took Perception / Strength (and bit of Intelligence later on) path of character development. I was never really hungry, did not have to look long for a cure to infection, and did not have a problem with ammunition for weapons. I did not need a strategy to survive, I just needed to loot. I have found 57 food/drink items in first week of playing (in previous versions it was at least twice less canned food and drinks, boiled and murky water does not enter into this count). In all previous game I was weary of mining during the night (until I got my mine entrance a bit fortified), but not in this game. I mean what am I supposed to be afraid off, if I have met only two zombies during first night, and only one during the second? With helmet light mod that I found on the second day, I can take single zombies with ease, running or not. The mini-hordes are usually one per day, so that is not a problem as well.

The balance between looting, crafting (including farming) and mining/building is also terribly off. I mean with so much loot I did craft my first iron tool on T3. I melted the increased number of forged iron bars with sheer power of my awesomeness and formed the melted metal with my bare hands to make a wrench, because all I found were T1 (right after that I found a T4 wrench, figures). I had at least a thousand each of electrical parts, pipes, polymer and mechanical parts and about 700 springs by day 24, plus entire wardrobe of clothes, most weapons on T4 to T6 with the exception of 9mm pistol and machete, which I have not found above T2. All that by looting about 40 POI’s plus over 10 destroyed ruins (one corner, two or three containers on first floor and maybe on the bit of second floor). The crafting in this game has been made unimportant and feels neglected, since FP blocked crafting of T6 items and some resources, removed learning of crafting steel tools, steel armor and military armor from perk tree and added magical, non-rational “parts” to almost everything of use in late game. Moreover as one spends more hard earned points on a crafting perk, the cost of crafting those items actually increases (sic!). I mean yes, I can craft, but I either already have or will find a better item, just by looting, so what is the point? Remember that “survive by your own merit, not luck” thing? Well, it is gone from this game.

Yes, you could say I was lucky (and took lucky looter), and some people wouldn’t be, but I’ve talked to some people and I’ve seen enough post on the net to know that this game in now about one thing: loot, loot, loot. And if you can’t loot, buy it at a friendly supermarket open 16/7 with regular deliveries made by fairies, I guess, since there are no NPC’s in this game other than trades who don’t move. I craft regularly only building materials and food (meat stew from about day 20 – I have gathered about 500 raw meat by then). Farming was supposed to be made difficult by those expensive farm plots, but it is not. I got 25 of them by that date. Rotting flesh is plentiful when you know where to look (BTW, FP how long are you going to persist in this fallacy?). Actually I was more restricted by the number of seeds I found. I get plenty of vegetables to cook, so I can save cans for rainy days. Surprisingly I did not need to build a vomitorium in my humble domicile…

Mining and especially building give nice XP (actually about 60% of mine XP came from building in A18, especially once I got to produce cement mix), but to build you need resources, which you need to mine, and to do that in large quantities you need good tools (miner69’er perk will not help if you do it with stone axe). So loot in hope of finding the steel tools schematic or the tools themselves – which probably will happen first (or you’ll find an auger), because you cannot unlock crafting steel tools – there is no perk for that, but there is for an auger (much more complicated device than a pickaxe).

Weapon balance is actually simply moved in favor of firearms - ammunition for guns is so plentiful that one does switch to them early on in the game. I actually saved most of the arrows that I made in early days for horde nights. Used about 500 of them, 70 iron bolts and about 100 7.62 rounds at day 28 horde, killing over 200 zeds (GS 118). And I got over 900 more 7.62, over 400 7.62AP plus over 1200 9mm stored for the future already… I have not yet started making ammo myself, I just gather resources. Maybe I will need them on day 70, maybe a bit sooner it is hard to tell just yet.

The situation is that I am on the day 29 morning, lvl 58, having easily finished fixing my base (only three blocks destroyed plus 6 electric fences) and … I’ve got nothing better to do, than to do quests. Which will be increasingly repeatable, from what I’ve read, because there is the same RNG mechanism for selecting the quest location/building. In A17 I was sent to the same building for T4 quests and to the two buildings for T5 quests (on random map). Looting the same POI over and over again is NOT my idea of fun. After that and say 3 next horde nights I think I will be done. Why? Because I’ve noticed that I gain levels more and more slowly. I checked the progression.xml and found that to reach lvl 300 I will need more than 477538 million points. That is about 7127 times more points that was needed to gain that lvl in A17. By my crude calculations, by playing 4 hours each day (which I can’t, for some time now I can play maybe 10 hours a week) I might be able to do so in about one thousand years (957 and a bit, to be more exact). “I ain’t got that kinda time” to misquote one of the YouTubers I follow.

 
To summarize: FP made a game I can’t finish, according to my own rules – a game that I just can’t enjoy as I have before. I mean I can still play it, but there is something missing, you know? That illusive “je ne sais quoi”. And that definitely is not just the matter of adjusting loot tables. It is the matter of persistent promoting of looting at a cost of crafting. Promoting “dumb luck” instead of thoughtful character development. The matter of game that abandoned realism in favor of its own inconsistent ruleset. Some examples:

- The farm plots needs 100 clay soil, which is over 6 times as much soil as a topsoil block; Even if one could compress so much material in the same volume of space, it would have been so hard that one could not push the seed in;

- The auger can be “researched” before the crucible, which is necessary to make steel, but auger is made out of steel. So HOW the first guy (or girl) who designed the auger was able to do it without the major component?!?

- The exploding or fire steel crossbow bolts and steel arrows can be learned through separate schematics, but somehow once you can make them, you still can’t make regular steel bolts or arrows – and yet the recipes clearly show that those are the same bolts and arrows, just with something attached to them;

- Crafting tools or weapons requires MORE resources as you gain the skill (by advancing main perk), but some other perks make you use LESS resources when crafting. Which way is skillful use of resources counted in this reality?

- Food cooked from fresh ingredients has a 4% chance of getting you really sick, but a can made from rotting flesh does not (can of sham);

- Boiled water has a chance to give you dysentery, and eaten yucca fruit has a chance to make you sick, but if you just squeeze it into boiled water, the result is perfectly safe to consume.

I have only one thing to praise really: the game runs better in A18 – optimization team did well.

I have a plan about what to do next: I will mod the ***t out of this game, either by finding mods that have something I want, or I’ll add/change it myself (I have been checking out the game files for a few last days). This will include several key elements which, I think, will make the game harder and yet more enjoyable:

a) I will put back taken out recipes for parts and items; not because I need them, but because they should be in the game if I want to craft those items. I will also bring back crafting T6 items.

b) I will add permissions to craft most items that now can be crafted only via schematic to some perk for instance steel tools will be added to Advanced Engineering T4, alongside the crucible, which I will move from T5 ( and move mechanical tools to T5). I also might add a new workstation for making steel – a new forge. Many mods have them and I fail to see why FP would not put them into the game. I mean what is the better way to restrict creating a steel tool than to restrict access to the workstation at which one can make steel tools? The recipe for it will be added to least common chest (or maybe I will add a new chest in T5 POI, depends how hard it will prove). And maybe the trader will have it.

c) I will add the recipes for tool heads – fire axe head, hammer head etc. They will require forge and anvil for iron and forge and crucible for steel (or maybe said new advanced forge for steel). Handles you can make in hand, but one cannot form a metal part without heating the metal and forming it while it’s hot (not without industrial machines with casting forms).

d) I might add a new workstation for creating firearms more advanced than blunderbuss and sawed off shotgun. With the same principle as the advanced forge for getting the schematic.

e) I will remove rotting flesh from cooking recipes and remove the sickness chance on eating/drinking freshly cooked food/drinks. Instead I might add a permanent chance of getting sick if you do not clean yourself up (with soap made from animal fat and coal). Or maybe I’ll add food spoilage like the one in Starvation mod.

f) I will remove rotting flesh from farming plot recipe, replace it with plant fibers. I will make the count of soil required into something reasonable. Maybe I’ll even add a “cleansing machine” workstation for creating the farm plots. I will also remove recipes for seeds, but add seeds to traders offer. I mean there was a contagion event (Madmole mentioned radiation, but it could not be that because there is no anti-radiation cure in this game), and all food and plants are contaminated, right? Seeds are more resilient, and those found or bought are pre-event seeds free of the virus/bacteria. And you farm then only in clean farm plots.

g) I definitely will bring back iron ore – I just can’t look at mining scrap iron ;)

h) I will remove the “growing cost” mechanics from recipes. I probably will also remove “less cost” mechanic from perks, but that is something to ponder on (whether it will actually make a difference). The “magical parts” might even stay in the game – one will not have to gather them for weeks to make a decent tool or weapon.

i) I will either revert to old repair style or introduce more costly repair kits. My initial thought was to make one repair station with contents of which you repair stuff, but that would be too stationary solution (although most realistic one). So now I am pondering on one repair kit with 10 repair charges (it would require changing the repair mechanic itself) or bundle of repair kits. Both made with say 10 forged iron, two duct tapes, one glue, two pieces of wood, two oils, cloth, small rock, one brass, and one lead. The idea is that you make disposable kit with simple tools and bolts, screws and screw washers, pliers etc. and you fix with it until the contents run out, than make another one. Because one can’t fix everything with duct tape, unless in a joke.

j) I will make the increment of XP increase per level 2%, not 5%, so that the character can actually make it to level 300 in affordable amount of time. Might have to change gamestage increase a bit, as well, but this will require testing.

Those changes should make this game feel worth playing again, for me off course. I do not expect FP to include them in their further work on this game. Frankly my idea of this game and their idea are become two things more and more apart. I thought this game would be a single-player or multi-player RPG where once one learned how to, one would be able to create a safe-haven base (or many such places) for NPC’s. Make contacts, trade, do various quests (not only search&destroy). Rebuild the society, even. Find a cure for the infection. FP are making this, in my opinion, into an action game with more places to loot and no main plot (so far). That really makes me sad.

 
Holy... Sir, you are the king of wall texting lol :-P

I'll be sure and give all you said a read soon as i get well rested. Taking all that time to write this up...it must contain some gold in it. :)

 
Hey, did Iron Ore get removed, in recent update??

When I logged in and started mining Iron, it was dropping only scrap metal instead of iron ore. I guess it would be a "sharp sticks" argument right??

 
We're planning some kind of chunk reset code we could call it after its turned in. I doubt anyone will be driving off road much once vehicles are balanced.
That would be super awesome, and something a lot of people (running servers) have requested... a way to reset chunks, or area, so we can bring say towns back to pristine condition after months of being totally torn down over and over again :)

Of course we can remove region files and have them regen, but that's very tedious, and is region rather than chunk based.

Would love an admin command for that :)

 
Hey, did Iron Ore get removed, in recent update??
When I logged in and started mining Iron, it was dropping only scrap metal instead of iron ore. I guess it would be a "sharp sticks" argument right??
Yes.

Now it's all "iron" (the scrap iron kind).

I wish they wouldn't have though! I would love some more complexity... Ie, you find iron. Scrap to 3. Forge gives you 5. An ore processing multiblock plant gives you 10. Ie, you now have early, mid and late game ways to get iron, and there's a complexity curve which also gives you more resources.

Now it's all iron :p

 
- lots of interesting thoughts - .
I think a lot of what you say is very interesting and agreeable - but I do feel you could have phrased it much more positively and that would make people more inclined to read it all.

The gunplay definitely needs balancing, but I understand that is something which is constantly being worked on. There's too much just now, and the melee is being left behind - but with that feedback I presume the Devs are going to work on scaling back the NEED for guns first - which will make it feel like we have more than we need - followed by the availability of them - doing it the other way around will make it too hard in the interim.

The melee definitely needs a boost to keep it useful - but the junk turret is good back up for now and they're clearly looking at both those things as well - but they'll want to boost the melee first then nerf the turret.

with both these things they need to ensure balance is kept between the perk paths and the available options.

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Food is also something they're obviously working on, there are multiple threads - MM's new recipes, talk of buffs to balance the food poisoning chance and; as with the guns / loot - they'll start by giving you too much then gradually nerf it down; but trying to keep it viable to play mutliple ways - some people will want to farm, some will want to loot, some will want to hunt; so you either force one (not good for other style players) -force all 3 (just as bad) or make all 3 viable (too easy if you mix styles) - and leave it up to the player (s) to decide how much time and how many skill points to invest. Whatever you do, you start by giving too much then gradually reduce it.

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The easy nature of a quiet world is also, fairly obviously, something being worked on - plenty of threads where they are discussing putting in new dynamic systems to recreate the 'feel' and effect of the old full world without dedicating lots of memory to it.

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Crafting is also clearly in need of some further though - and I presume that it's also being thought about, since everything else getting lots of useful feedback is.

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Quite aside from the balance this would put to a single players vs multiplayer, vs PVE vs PVP make it a massive logistical nightmare; but that's why they're continuing to develop this in alpha rather than rushing out a final product.

Not gonna tell you to play on harder, but would gently suggest that everything you have mentioned is being actively discussed and accepting positive - or at least constructive - feedback "I played this way, here is my experience, here is what I think is worth thinking about - and the Devs and admin are clearly reading and responding to it.

Some of the things you mention, however, are a little bit 'the game no longer lets me play the way I got accustomed to playing' - and you got two options; revert to a previous alpha or mod; and the fact that both these options are available to you deserve positive mention - whereas some people paint 'having to do that' as a negative.

As for your modding intentions, here are some thoughs;

A) You're putting something back into the game 'not because you need it, but just in case you want it' - cool; but when your the Devs trying to minimize excess stuff, that's a terrible idea - but it's good you have the option. The removal of crafting parts is a new change, and might or might not stick; but I've not heard anyone say they were 'mandatory' - so that seems like a worthwhile removal to test out.

B) You're gonna take things away from being findable in the world and gate them behind skills - cool; but that was a big complaint by many players in 17 - a single player shouldn't have to gain 4 x as many levels to be able to build everything; and having things skill locked makes single player needlessly less than multiplayer. The removal of skill locks was a new change, and will obviously need some tweaking, and having everything available through schematics helps balance single and multi player games better; which is why it's being explored.

C) Meh. Extra bits and pieces which you can use or not; fine for individual tastes, but neither necessary so worth exploring, but from the reality point of view survivors are MUCH more likely to survive by finding stuff than making it from scratch - it'd take years to master the skills necessary, so I don't mind it being in the game, but see the logic of it being a long, long ways off and much easier to find and cannibalize stuff.

D) As above - It's America. You'll find plenty of guns and ammo before ever having to sit down and research how to 'make' a gun from scratch - but I don't mind it being a long, long term goal.

E) Sounds interesting, and I know it's something they're constantly tinkering with; food poisoning is an attempt to make food more complicted without adding extra systems. Spoilage and hygiene sound fine, but in a multiplayer that's literally an exponential number of sums that need to keep running in the background to keep track of food age and player cleanliness, which isn't ideal - more thinking to be done, methinks.

F) Farming was far, FAR, too easy and prevelant <17 - this is a first attempt at reducing it. It's not quite right, but it's a step in the right direction. I reckon it'll balance better before too long.

G) Meh. Needless extra middle step in a process; but if you want to dedicate resources to it on your PC, cool.

H) Not really sure how much of an issue this is, haven't felt it myself.

I) Yeah, new repair kits are a bit odd, but make more sense than just using the raw ingredients - and I see why a 'gun cleaning kit' 'tool sharpening kit' 'puncture repair kit' etc... would be just needless excess. Repair station sounds like a cool idea, though!

J) they're still working on that, and the XP has been tweaked recently; but striking a balance between there being a point in teamwork in multiplayer and not letting a single player be too hamstrung is a tricky one. Recipes and Schematics are a step towards solving this, but it does feel like it could be better - but I don't think making levelling too much easier is the right solution for the game in general.

Cool thoughts - but I reckon you'll get a better discussion framing it as a discussion rather than a lecture - and I don't mean that disrespectfully; but I feel it's easier to ignore or dismiss anyone who includes phrases like 'this is too easy because I.....'

 
Its not about performance, (but performance does impact some designs) its a bad design to let players easily gut out a space below POIS or a whole town and let it fall into a sink hole. If it were just a single player game then sure whatever floats your boat, but its not.
But people can already nuke a POI with a dozen dynamites or rockets by strategically placing them all around it. So what you're afraid of happening is already happening.

 
I think the attributes need to be renamed. Calling them Strength, Intellect, Etc really confuses people when they see stuff under them that they feel is better in another stat.

If you gave them names based around the job, that would probably eliminate a lot of the issues people have with saying well why is cooking under strength for instance.

Aka call Strength Close Combat or something, Agility Ninja, Intellect Mad Scientist, etc. Something that people won't see and go oh thats a strength perk

 
Hey MM can you look into the Buried Treasure quests for multiplayer? I posted a thread in the other section of the forum but not here, so here it goes: I'm on a multiplayer server and it's a mad rush to do these quests by the masses. There are now holes all over the map. You can't drive a vehicle without falling into one and so many people (admins) have to go around marking and filling in holes. We need a way to eliminate so many holes. It's crazy. Maybe have these chests in non-populated small POIs or something.
Honestly I'd replace buried supplies with crafting quests and provide quests for people that are less combat oriented.

For instance food quests, bring me 20 grilled meat, 20 hardboiled eggs, etc.

Crafting - Bring me 3 bows and 100 arrows, etc.

 
I think the attributes need to be renamed. Calling them Strength, Intellect, Etc really confuses people when they see stuff under them that they feel is better in another stat.
If you gave them names based around the job, that would probably eliminate a lot of the issues people have with saying well why is cooking under strength for instance.

Aka call Strength Close Combat or something, Agility Ninja, Intellect Mad Scientist, etc. Something that people won't see and go oh thats a strength perk
I kind of agree. For example, It’s just natural for people who want to be stronger in melee to put points in strength. Then you find out it doesn’t help with your melee weapon of choice, but it does increase shotgun damage. You end up saying. WTF?

 
I'm level 50 by day 30, and at level 60 I gain 1 level an hour, so I imagine I'd get to level 300 way before day 300. Contact grenades and m60's baby. And a nice fort, 12x12x16, entire foundation solid r concrete, outer blocks eventually steel.
There is also learning elixir for those masochists out there....😂

 
I kind of agree. For example, It’s just natural for people who want to be stronger in melee to put points in strength. Then you find out it doesn’t help with your melee weapon of choice, but it does increase shotgun damage. You end up saying. WTF?
I think they should be separated. There are the 5 basic attributes (Strength, Intelligence, Agility) and on the other hand there should be perks.

While the basic attributes affect everything, the perks go for specific items.

Lets say increasing the basic attribute strength makes all weapons (melee and ranged) do more damage, also higher blockdamage

Increasing agility makes all weapons attacking faster, increases movement speed

Fortitude increases chance of dismember for all weapons.

Perception increases aim accuracy for all weapons.

Maybe even intellect doesn't give you any combat bonuses, but faster crafting, ...

...

Then come the perks which may still require a minimum of points in different basic attributes. They allow you to further spezialize in what you like.

Like it was already in diablo. On the left site your basic attributes, on the right side your skills.

What i dislike a little in A18 is that you cannot (effective) combine melee and ranged weapons at will.

Iirc agility buffs handguns and blade weapons, while strength buffs clubs and shotguns. So it would be very skill-ineffective to use a shotgun as ranged weapon and blade weapons for melee.

Also if i want to skill living of the land and master chef, i'm forced to strength and fortitude. So already assault rifles or shotguns and clubs or whatever melee weapon fortitiude uses.

If i want to hunt additionally you need perception, too. And various perks are locked to high level attributes, so no way of specialising left, just because you want to have 3 perks.

 
I don't like the sound of this, leave them alone please, they are fine and don't need to be messed with. Traveling on foot is slow as hell in the game, don't force us to have to do that anytime there is a small hill or bump somewhere.
It will be like it is now, except smashing into things will have a chance to mess up your ride, so going off road will have some risks.

 
If i want to hunt additionally you need perception, too. And various perks are locked to high level attributes, so no way of specialising left, just because you want to have 3 perks.
I think you got that backwards.

You can specialise very well.

What you want is to master everything at the same time. That's the opposite of specialisation. =P

 
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