PC Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[Jugginator]

My ego is irrelevant for the game as i am not being paid to be the representative of the effort put into a game by a whole team, i dont have a position of responsability neither my job is as important as to objectively analyse feedback to improve the game.
You are not seriously suggesting that having every player in 7 days to die buy a UPC battery backup makes more sense than coding the game to make a back up file, are you??

You're the only one who's complaining about this issue LOL. Man this forum is a good source of laughter. Btw there IS a backup file labeled .bak. But it's not reliable no, but it's a constantly saved game. You literally argued with manual saved games. If this game made backup saves like Civ auto saves you'd be looking at 500 GB worth of backups XD

 

[Laz Man]

Lmao the hell is your deal man? If your power is that bad you constantly lose power, you should be complaining to your ELECTRIC COMPANY, not madmole lmao. If your power goes out while any game is saving a file, that file is gone. That's even bad for your OS and your computer and the rest of your electronics, this IS a you issue.

No use arguing with the guy. Shows no ownership for his own behavior especially when all I was trying to do is suggest something that would help him out.

 

[Jugginator]

No use arguing with the guy. Shows no ownership for his own behavior especially when all I was trying to do is suggest something that would help him out. ��

Kinda feel like it's the woman yelling at the cat meme with madmole as the cat haha

Staying on feedback topic, how about replacing the blocks you need wet concrete blocks for into rebar frames? Speaking of condensing things down, kinda like the curved block (whatever it's called).

Oh, and we need to let passengers use guns, so we can dupe a bunch of 4x4s and drive around with m60s blaring Rammstein or Rolling Stones

 

[Marinxar]

Oh, and we need to let passengers use guns, so we can dupe a bunch of 4x4s and drive around with m60s blaring Rammstein or Rolling Stones

Now I'm thinking Death Track ...

 

[Weazelsun]

Some feedback on my observations. For some context, I played up to lvl 76/Day 52 so far, Survivalist/24 Blood Moon Zombies/Jog, with a mostly Agility/Handguns character but dabbling a lot on various trees.
Melee Weapon Balance:

Clubs/Bats/Sledgehammers seem to be way better then other melee weapon types. This game generally favours dipping in and out with big single hits for melee, esp on higher difficulties where you can't really tank hits even with armour, and these are the best weapons for doing so. It doesn't help that the bats get their own magazine perks while other melee weapons lack anything similar, and that you have to invest in strength for mining anyways for single player.

Knives:

I assume the intent is you are supposed to bleed targets with Knives and then kite them around, however this ends up taking forever on higher difficulties, and the rapid attack speed of knives just isn't useful for anything but lawn mowing (which it is great for). Even with maxed perks, I can bleed up an enemy with a Knife, and run around for a while or I can just kill it in 1-3 hits with a bat (even some of the irradiated zombies die in 3 bat headshots). Just doesn't seem to make sense. Not sure if suggestions are wanted, but buffing the bleeds would be a start. At least make them do damage faster but maybe last less time.

Stun Batons:

Just low damage clubs with a 'stun' that isn't even a real stun. Doesn't help that it can be hard to find one early on if you are trying to go down that path. A buff to the stun of some kind would make sense, either make it do a bunch of damage over the duration, proc more often, or be a 'real' full stun.

Knuckles:

Same problem as knives with being fast but weak, which doesn't mesh well with melee combat in this game. They do have the saving grace that Fortitude has the farming perks, and Beer buffs knuckles, so I could see them being effective with 100% Beer uptime, but I feel like even if that is the point, maybe nerfing beer and buffing the base damage of knuckles would still make sense.

Spears:

The basic attack is weak and the throw doesn't do enough damage to make up for having to retrieve the weapon, esp if fighting a group. Admitedly the spear throw is probably a lot better on lower difficulties where it is more likely to 1 shot the target, but the baseball bat/sledge are also more likely to 1 shot targets on those difficulties. Basically the spear throw just doesn't do enough extra damage over a power attack from a bat to make up for the drawbacks IMHO, and should probably do more damage.

Bows/Crossbows:

In Alpha 17, and even more now in Alpha 18, Guns/Brass/Casings have become more common, which has eroded the old role of the Bow/Crossbow as a 'budget' ranged weapon. By itself this wouldn't be so bad, but now bows/crossbows require parts to make good ones (the primitive bow is awful), which seem even less common then gun parts, and really hinder the early game usefulness of bows/crossbows.

On top of this, Crossbows pretty much require perking Archery AND Run and Gun to max just to deal with the reload time/speed penalty, which makes them feel like a huge investment, and by the time you get there, you are fighting irradiated zombies, which are 10x easier to fight with a gun then a crossbow or bow, even with a rad remover mod, which makes you feel like you should have just put the points into guns instead.

Doesn't help that Bows/Crossbows share attribute with Handguns, and the Pistol/9mm ammo are ubiquitous, and the Pistol in general is a really solid end-game viable gun as it is. I was actually planning on going Bows early game, but found it was easier to get a Pistol/9mm then having to get Bow parts and gather the now rare feathers/polymers for steel arrows. And the Pistol was obviously way stronger overall then a Bow or Crossbow.

Counter-point, once your perked up in fortitude you should be doing a good amount of damage with the knuckles. Heck, on the server I play on that has a difficulty of 5/6, facing an irradiated zombie, I have managed to knock them down repeatedly. Then again it could be just that I also am perked 3/5 in flurry or blows along with 3/5 the brawler. Edit: I did have to retreat from an irradiated cop.

 

[Weazelsun]

@madmole, I've noticed that upon installing a Serrated Blade mod into my steel knuckles the effects of said mod which is "10% chance to cause a Bleeding Wound on a regular attack", does indeed proc. I don't know if that is intended or not, but I like it. What do you think of having the effects of Deep Cuts also affect the iron spear, steel spear, and steel knuckles? Since in-game model indicates they have blades on them.

 

[Gazz]

The only problem is that at 50%, you get a lot of special containers (shipping crates, locked crates, safes, etc..) that are totally empty. I don't suppose you could make a change so that those containers always have a reward even at 25% multiplier? Just scaling it down so you at least get a single gun part, a few bullets, some food, raw materials, etc..

At 100% these sometimes have 1 item. At 50% they have a chance to have fewer items. That's why you chose the 50% setting, right?

 

[Marinxar]

.... all that

I agree with that summary. Primitive bow is way too weak, as is spear. Compared to your other options.

Honestly I kite tank zombies with Spear until I get a 9mm, and that I use all the way through the game. I will use Markmanship rifle and M60 on horde nights, but for general gameplay the 9mm is boss.

I loved playing with a bow/crossbow, as I prefer stealth play. Especially on Warrior+ difficulty levels, you save so much ammo with sneak dmg bonus...., but with silencer for 9mm, again the bow/crossbow fades way way back in effectiveness.

EDIT: Only way to balance this, is to increase the damage of the bow type weapons. Making ammo or gun parts more scarse, will create a ♥♥♥♥ storm.

 

[Freshzombie]

Some feedback on my observations. For some context, I played up to lvl 76/Day 52 so far, Survivalist/24 Blood Moon Zombies/Jog, with a mostly Agility/Handguns character but dabbling a lot on various trees.
Melee Weapon Balance:

Clubs/Bats/Sledgehammers seem to be way better then other melee weapon types. This game generally favours dipping in and out with big single hits for melee, esp on higher difficulties where you can't really tank hits even with armour, and these are the best weapons for doing so. It doesn't help that the bats get their own magazine perks while other melee weapons lack anything similar, and that you have to invest in strength for mining anyways for single player.

Knives:

I assume the intent is you are supposed to bleed targets with Knives and then kite them around, however this ends up taking forever on higher difficulties, and the rapid attack speed of knives just isn't useful for anything but lawn mowing (which it is great for). Even with maxed perks, I can bleed up an enemy with a Knife, and run around for a while or I can just kill it in 1-3 hits with a bat (even some of the irradiated zombies die in 3 bat headshots). Just doesn't seem to make sense. Not sure if suggestions are wanted, but buffing the bleeds would be a start. At least make them do damage faster but maybe last less time.

Stun Batons:

Just low damage clubs with a 'stun' that isn't even a real stun. Doesn't help that it can be hard to find one early on if you are trying to go down that path. A buff to the stun of some kind would make sense, either make it do a bunch of damage over the duration, proc more often, or be a 'real' full stun.

Knuckles:

Same problem as knives with being fast but weak, which doesn't mesh well with melee combat in this game. They do have the saving grace that Fortitude has the farming perks, and Beer buffs knuckles, so I could see them being effective with 100% Beer uptime, but I feel like even if that is the point, maybe nerfing beer and buffing the base damage of knuckles would still make sense.

Spears:

The basic attack is weak and the throw doesn't do enough damage to make up for having to retrieve the weapon, esp if fighting a group. Admitedly the spear throw is probably a lot better on lower difficulties where it is more likely to 1 shot the target, but the baseball bat/sledge are also more likely to 1 shot targets on those difficulties. Basically the spear throw just doesn't do enough extra damage over a power attack from a bat to make up for the drawbacks IMHO, and should probably do more damage.

Bows/Crossbows:

In Alpha 17, and even more now in Alpha 18, Guns/Brass/Casings have become more common, which has eroded the old role of the Bow/Crossbow as a 'budget' ranged weapon. By itself this wouldn't be so bad, but now bows/crossbows require parts to make good ones (the primitive bow is awful), which seem even less common then gun parts, and really hinder the early game usefulness of bows/crossbows.

On top of this, Crossbows pretty much require perking Archery AND Run and Gun to max just to deal with the reload time/speed penalty, which makes them feel like a huge investment, and by the time you get there, you are fighting irradiated zombies, which are 10x easier to fight with a gun then a crossbow or bow, even with a rad remover mod, which makes you feel like you should have just put the points into guns instead.

Doesn't help that Bows/Crossbows share attribute with Handguns, and the Pistol/9mm ammo are ubiquitous, and the Pistol in general is a really solid end-game viable gun as it is. I was actually planning on going Bows early game, but found it was easier to get a Pistol/9mm then having to get Bow parts and gather the now rare feathers/polymers for steel arrows. And the Pistol was obviously way stronger overall then a Bow or Crossbow.

Nightmare all day/insane difficulty. Lv84

I agree on everthing you listed. Especially the part where "clubs/bats" are just strickly better on higher difficulty. Once I knock a radiated zombie down, it will stay knock down as long as i keep using power attack.

Knife is like a weaker version of clubs.

Spear is only useful, when the zombie are trap behind a block, or when I am on top of a 4x4 platform.

Kuckles are great if on lower difficulty.

On insane difficulty, with zombie always run, it is very hard to knock down your foes, with out taking damages.(on nightmare speed, you get surrounded very easily. Heavy armor will not save you.)

I put 3 perks in light armor, with customized fitting mod on all armor pieces, with a military stealth boots. This gives me 103% in mobility and allows me to use my bat to do the hit and run trick.

The rest of the perks goes to dead eye, armor peneration, pummel, and some perks under intelligent.

Conclusion: mobility and stamina are your best friends on higher difficulty. Because it always open up the window to disengage. And the knock down effects from the clubs/bat synergize with mobility really Well.

 

[mr.natural]

At 100% these sometimes have 1 item. At 50% they have a chance to have fewer items. That's why you chose the 50% setting, right?

I like that to be confirmed as my experience is that playing even at 75% you only get more often empty loot instead of less items.

And playing at 25% you get mostly nothing.

edit: I ment on 25% you don't get only 25% less loot but also 4 times more often empty loot which means it is more like 5% loot settings

 

[falloutcloud]

Maybe roland can sum up alot of what has already been answered by MM so he doesnt have to repeat himself less. @Roland.

What makes you think I missed the original posting before a18 was released? Doesn't change my feedback and suggestion.

 

[mr.natural]

Would it not be nice that the available items for sale at the trader could also be set into 25, 50, 75% less? (And some might argue it should be possible to set to 150 and 200% too?)

The trader for sure has too much for sale at default settings IMO.

 

[hotpoon]

Are you ♥♥♥♥ing serious? are you rly telling me to back up my files every day i play the game???Out of your control??? is out of your control to make the game create a saved file every ingame midnight??

Are you rly so short of sight as to assume ♥♥♥♥ i have never said?? this town has electric problems whenever there is strong winds, so should i go complain to the electric company because your incapability of putting your ego aside and analyse feeback in a objective manner to improve your game???

I seriously cant believe you are working with the professionals who made this nice game possible.

I live in South Africa, where our corrupt energy company runs out of coal on a regular basis and hasn't maintained power stations in the past 25 years, so I know a little bit about random electricity cuts. I know they can be infuriating, but you're misdirecting your anger here. It is not TFP's fault that your town has a power problem, and you really should get yourself a UPS - not just for the ability to have your games save properly, but also to prevent damage to your PC.

More importantly, you should try to speak to people with less aggression. This is a thread about balance issues, and while some of us are trying to have civil discussions, people like you get MadMole all riled up, and then he in turn answers other people like this:

How many times do I have to explain this? All combat focuses attributes need a way to heal. Strength gets master chef, those muscles need a lot of calories as well for mining, sledgehammers etc. Fortitude doesn't use any stamina in comparison (fists don't use much) has self healing and damage resistance already. Int has medicine for healing. Perception and agility avoid taking damage by shooting at a distance or hiding in the shadows.

MadMole, I suspect you would have answered that differently if you weren't getting lambasted by certain individuals, but if you stick by what you've said, I'd like to point out that not all of us have read every one of your posts, so if you see the same question popping up, it's not because we are deliberately trying to annoy you. It's obviously because it is a common concern.

I would like to make a suggestion regarding the perk tree. Before, I do, I want to mention that the perk tree is not terrible, and I, for one, will still happily play the game regardless...

From your explanation, I understand that you've tried to balance each branch (perspective, intelligence, etc) of the tree into specific classes, but in practise, this is frustrating for people who want to straddle those branches to create a custom build to suit their play style. For example, I want certain perks under the strength tree, but in order to get them, I find myself having to put points into strength which benefits unarmed combat (which I don't want). I feel I'm wasting points, which is something we shouldn't have to feel in a game like this.

People are constantly arguing about what type of game (crafting, building, looter shooter etc) it should be predominantly, but it's a multifacted sandbox game, that should cater to all playstyles instead of pigeon-holed class builds. So to satisfy each playstyle, you could arrange the tree branches into the following:

SURVIVAL

Contains perks regarding managing temperature, hunger, cooking, stamina, health reg etc.

RESOURCES

Contains perks regarding mining, farming, hunting, etc.

CRAFTING/BUILDING/ENGINEERING

Contains perks regarding crafting of items, and building bases, traps, and vehicles

SNEAKING/LOOTING/ADVENTURE

Contains perks regarding stealth, lockpicking, loot bonuses, merchant skills

COMBAT MELEE

Contains perks regarding unarmed, spears, clubs, etc

COMBAT RANGED

Contains perks regarding archery and guns

With the above format people could spec into multiple branches depending on their interests, without feeling like they are wasting points.

 

[hotpoon]

...

Spears:

The basic attack is weak and the throw doesn't do enough damage to make up for having to retrieve the weapon, esp if fighting a group. Admitedly the spear throw is probably a lot better on lower difficulties where it is more likely to 1 shot the target, but the baseball bat/sledge are also more likely to 1 shot targets on those difficulties. Basically the spear throw just doesn't do enough extra damage over a power attack from a bat to make up for the drawbacks IMHO, and should probably do more damage.

...

I think what the spear lacks in damage, it gains in reach. I will take the longer reach over the damage any day.

 

[Piratenking]

I think you should take a breather mate. You running down a path that has no good ending, and you will most likely regret when you think over it later. Nothing said and done in anger can be taken back.

i didnt say anything just for the sake of offending or venting anger, i genuinely believe what i said, and if taken objectively it can help both the game and MM, but i would like to move on, this thread is about feedback, this went off topic a while ago and thats not ok, but i take note of your advice, cheers.

 

[Piratenking]

Lmao the hell is your deal man? If your power is that bad you constantly lose power, you should be complaining to your ELECTRIC COMPANY, not madmole lmao. If your power goes out while any game is saving a file, that file is gone. That's even bad for your OS and your computer and the rest of your electronics, this IS a you issue.

i never blamed anyone for this, nor the game nor MM, but i believe this is a must in any offline game, be it for me and my electric problems or for any other player/reason, so please lets move on, there is no benefit in dragging this any further.

 

[Bashtiks]

From your explanation, I understand that you've tried to balance each branch (perspective, intelligence, etc) of the tree into specific classes, but in practise, this is frustrating for people who want to straddle those branches to create a custom build to suit their play style. For example, I want certain perks under the strength tree, but in order to get them, I find myself having to put points into strength which benefits unarmed combat (which I don't want). I feel I'm wasting points, which is something we shouldn't have to feel in a game like this.

People are constantly arguing about what type of game (crafting, building, looter shooter etc) it should be predominantly, but it's a multifacted sandbox game, that should cater to all playstyles instead of pigeon-holed class builds.

With the above format people could spec into multiple branches depending on their interests, without feeling like they are wasting points.

I agree with this.

But must say ima not a big fan of new system.

So thats way I like previous a16 lvling system more - the more you do something the more skilled you get in something and I dint have this feeling that Im wasting points on different skill trees just to get few perks like now .. it needed some tweaks here and there but overall was very enjoyable ... but if ima correct devs already mentioned thet they will never go back to it again so yeaah ...

Well you still have a freedom to choose, kind of ... , but its still feels forced with 5 classes to choose from like in some fantasy rpg game and still need to spec in different skill trees .. :/

Yes you can lvl up even more but I am playing on mp server with 300% exp and after lvl 90 it is getting rly rly rly grindy game ... yes back in a16 lvl also got harder in higher lvls but at least there was a chance to do some note questing for skill points

Well in the end the whole system is changed and thats that .. if devs are choosing to go different way thats their choice

Im playing this game but theres alot of frustation about a lot of things and despite all the new stuff added I kind of enjoy this game way less then before

 

[madmole]

I hate to say it but I think murky water stacks are OP, I think they stack up to 125? I remember hitting up the toilet store and having enough murky water to last me weeks. At that frequency I dont even bother picking up empty bottles or regular water which stacks only up to 10.
Edit: nice to meet another fellow toilet whore. *fist pump* lol

Its a resource or at best an undesirable drink, so resources have high stack sizes.

 

[madmole]

Those changes coming in A18 or A19?

Probably 18, but I don't know for sure.

 

[madmole]

Maybe you could tie game stage addition to game difficulty, or give us a separate "Game stage multiplier" option that controls how fast it ramps up and how much each extra player contributes to the total gamestage. Perhaps you could give game stage some geographic properties so that gamestage from each player is only added when they're in close proximity?


This would be lovely because I find that 50% loot multiplier is excellent for emphasizing the survival aspect of the game. At 100%, or even 75% I'm always swimming in everything I ever need, especially food. I sure would love if we could have specific loot multipliers for categories of items.

The only problem is that at 50%, you get a lot of special containers (shipping crates, locked crates, safes, etc..) that are totally empty. I don't suppose you could make a change so that those containers always have a reward even at 25% multiplier? Just scaling it down so you at least get a single gun part, a few bullets, some food, raw materials, etc..

Game stage does tie to difficulty. We're leaning on making the default about 80% loot since its kind of abundant now.