PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Gareee]

The first rumble of day 24 horde night thunder... maw, git me gun!

Yeah, but they are recommending a new game with the new exp build.

 

[Locusta]

Crafters like the processes of refining and combining. We enjoy scrapping things into components and then using those components to create something new. We like harvesting raw resources and turning them into refined materials. We like having intermediate components that can be used for a variety of finished products.
Non-crafters see the process as a tedious waste of time. They just want the finished product and who cares if it takes one step or five? They would say, “Just make it one step so we can get to playing the actual game”.

I think that somewhere along the way the non-crafter way if seeing things won the day at TFP. I personally would have preferred changing all the other ores to be more like iron—with a raw version that must be refined to usable resources instead of the way they went.

But I also like building, killing, looting and exploring so glossing over crafting and making it more streamlined and abstract doesn’t kill the game for me. But it does cut out what once was a more robust and enjoyable process (for those of us who like that sort of thing).

There is always Space Engineers to scratch that crafting itch...

This! You basically pointed out what I poorly was describing as “fundamental gameplay”. It’s definitely the crafter in me that is against changes like this. Thanks Roland!

Loc

 

[Jedo]

Without the ore scrapping penalty, it doesn’t make sense to keep ore as you and others have mentioned. I never knew that was changed, so that’s what started my argument and perhaps it was a bit reactionary. The fact that the ores are in line with each other makes more sense too I suppose. My concerns still stand though! :smile-new:

Where are you getting the ore that you don't immediately throw it in a forge or a chest? Like, I can understand having to decide whether to scrap a doorknob out in the field or saving it to get the full value when you get back to base. With iron ore, though, you would have been mining it (I assume intentionally), and probably near your base or an outpost. Most of what would be in your inventory at the time would be iron ore, rocks, and maybe some sand. When would you be needing to save space in your inventory by deciding whether to scrap it?

 

[madmole]

Here's a shot of my Special K base before the horde.

 

[madmole]

Delete blunderbuss vs add auto shotgun, assault rifle, .50 cal sniper rifle?
Delete that sucker ASAP!!!!

LOL yeah in the right context things make sense. Maybe we can repurpose the blunderbuss to be a T1 rocket/grenade launcher.

 

[Guppycur]

Lemme break it down to what it is. It's not about iron ore.

The ore removal is just yet another example of the dumbing down/simplification that people who have played the game for many alphas and enjoyed it, don't like.

...cue MM's "stick" comment.

Used to be we'd have to take wood to make sticks. Take rocks to make sharp rocks. Then and only then could we make arrows. Now it's punch a tree and a boulder, straight to making arrows. Seems insignificant and slight to you? Multiply that simplification over dozens of systems, and you have the current generic and boring crafting system, when we once had a complicated one that made you think and plan, and more importantly made you prepare.

"But newbies couldn't figure it out!". Um, then why do you have the fevered fan base that you have? Because newbies COULD figure it out. And they enjoyed it.

...we once had 19 biomes in the xmls. 19. Now we functionally have 3. And they cause a bigger fps drop than the 19.

Jesus, I was actually going to make a list of all the things we have lost, but what's the point. MM et al likes the for dummies version of the game, that's not going to change, so why bother.

Y'all have fun.

 

[Gareee]

But it does cut out what once was a more robust and enjoyable process (for those of us who like that sort of thing).

As long as they add new complex game play systems like mods and books, I'm fine loosing things like raw iron smelting.

Do we still get the same amount of iron mining, since smelting gave us a larger net yield?

Also, it seems a LOT of old pois are gone missing in a18... the campsites in the wilderness and the cave pois for instance.

I'm seeing a lot more of the big shamway factory and the shotgun messiah though.. kind of like the old "city of radio towers" we used to have. I can't believe they are less of a system impact then the skyscrapers.

I know rwg is just really a first pass with the new system, but did it not include all the old pois as well as he new additions?

I'm also seeing like 3/4 of maps are now just rolling bumpy mountains that are hard to travel over, with vast areas with nothing of interest at all.

I know other subsystems have seen updates since a18 first dropped exp.. has there been any progress on rwg improvement in the last month?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Crafters like the processes of refining and combining. We enjoy scrapping things into components and then using those components to create something new. We like harvesting raw resources and turning them into refined materials. We like having intermediate components that can be used for a variety of finished products.
Non-crafters see the process as a tedious waste of time. They just want the finished product and who cares if it takes one step or five? They would say, “Just make it one step so we can get to playing the actual game”.

I think that somewhere along the way the non-crafter way if seeing things won the day at TFP. I personally would have preferred changing all the other ores to be more like iron—with a raw version that must be refined to usable resources instead of the way they went.

But I also like building, killing, looting and exploring so glossing over crafting and making it more streamlined and abstract doesn’t kill the game for me. But it does cut out what once was a more robust and enjoyable process (for those of us who like that sort of thing).

There is always Space Engineers to scratch that crafting itch...

I'm the same. I enjoy every part of the game so one part of it outshining another is just fine by me. I especially like when this happens because one of those areas got more features. I especially dislike when this happens because things are removed without replacing with something better in the same category.

Setting aside how mining and crafting takes a small hit with this, I have a feeling that for the way I play the game, I am going to have some boring nights. A lot of people just carry on at night as if they would during the day, but I play dead is dead and I try to be as safe as I can. Night used to be sorting out the distribution of several points, sorting through parts to combine them and upgrade guns, and mining. My only options these days is to mine and even that got simplified.

Streamlining everything is great for the game. For balancing, for maintainability of the code, for augmenting the code with more functions. A18 makes huge strides in the fun factor involving character building and questing. However, all three things that the game is known for has lost some luster. Survival, Horde, Crafting. Many people say 7D2D has become more of a looter-shooter. I'm fine with that, just not at the expense of everything else.

 

[Roland]

Roland, I very much like crafting and assembling and combining. I'd be a fierge advocate for the return of gun parts for example, because the new method feels... abstract and lacks the fine-tuning the old system had.
That being said, those raw irons didn't provide any value. There were no recipes with them, and in the end the only thing that changes is the icon that you put in the forge.

I get that. Having that one step in there that is “useless” for anything other than being a step makes the mining and refining process less abstracted. Now it is more abstract. Some people will play this game and wish the devs would make crafting more on par with how it is in Space Engineers and others will say, Thank you for not making it like Space Engineers.

I’m not saying it’s bad design. I’m just saying I can understand the disappointment of people over what TFP has chosen to simplify and make more abstract.

 

[Locusta]

Where are you getting the ore that you don't immediately throw it in a forge or a chest? Like, I can understand having to decide whether to scrap a doorknob out in the field or saving it to get the full value when you get back to base. With iron ore, though, you would have been mining it (I assume intentionally), and probably near your base or an outpost. Most of what would be in your inventory at the time would be iron ore, rocks, and maybe some sand. When would you be needing to save space in your inventory by deciding whether to scrap it?

I’m mainly referring to the example of making turret ammunition from iron. The “old way” would be to smelt iron ore into iron and craft ammo from that. Without the scrapping penalty, you could essentially scrap iron ore into iron and make ammo immediately. Now, you don’t have to do any of that because you get iron straight away. It was never about saving space. It was about the process, choice and time management. It’s not something I’m going to go on and on about, but I still think it should be noteworthy that some people still think crafting is fun when it’s a bigger process.

Loc

 

[Gr.o.m.]

Lemme break it down to what it is. It's not about iron ore.
The ore removal is just yet another example of the dumbing down/simplification that people who have played the game for many alphas and enjoyed it, don't like.

...cue MM's "stick" comment.

Used to be we'd have to take wood to make sticks. Take rocks to make sharp rocks. Then and only then could we make arrows. Now it's punch a tree and a boulder, straight to making arrows. Seems insignificant and slight to you? Multiply that simplification over dozens of systems, and you have the current generic and boring crafting system, when we once had a complicated one that made you think and plan, and more importantly made you prepare.

"But newbies couldn't figure it out!". Um, then why do you have the fevered fan base that you have? Because newbies COULD figure it out. And they enjoyed it.

...we once had 19 biomes in the xmls. 19. Now we functionally have 3. And they cause a bigger fps drop than the 19.

Jesus, I was actually going to make a list of all the things we have lost, but what's the point. MM et al likes the for dummies version of the game, that's not going to change, so why bother.

Y'all have fun.

The removal of turning wood into sticks or small into sharp stones was good. I played with sharp stones and sticks and it was a boring menial task nothing else. For me it did not improve gameplay., but extending the grind into crafting.

I would love to see the return of the plains biome.

 

[meganoth]

The fundamental gameplay I’m referring to is choice. You said it yourself it’s “much easier” which removes choice and having to prioritize your crafting. Having “more scrap iron early game” also changes fundamental gameplay as you pointed out yourself. So while I appreciate your opinion, you kinda put your foot in your mouth. :smile-new:
I don’t feel my comments are over exaggerated knee jerk reactions either. I’m simply stating a point that I’m a fan of choice and hard decisions when it comes to gameplay. I’m not asking for over complication. I just don’t want things to get too streamlined where you don’t have to think about anything because there is only one way to do everything.

Edit: I didn’t realize that scrapping iron ore had no penalty anymore. That basically paved the way for the change, so I guess I’ve already lost the argument...

Even if scrapping had a penalty, I don't see any hard choice. Maybe you don't know that you simply can craft (scrap) iron out of the forge again, not only forged iron and steel. So once smelted the iron ore was as versatile as scrap iron.

 

[Gareee]

Lemme break it down to what it is. It's not about iron ore.
The ore removal is just yet another example of the dumbing down/simplification that people who have played the game for many alphas and enjoyed it, don't like.

...cue MM's "stick" comment.

Used to be we'd have to take wood to make sticks. Take rocks to make sharp rocks. Then and only then could we make arrows. Now it's punch a tree and a boulder, straight to making arrows. Seems insignificant and slight to you? Multiply that simplification over dozens of systems, and you have the current generic and boring crafting system, when we once had a complicated one that made you think and plan, and more importantly made you prepare.

"But newbies couldn't figure it out!". Um, then why do you have the fevered fan base that you have? Because newbies COULD figure it out. And they enjoyed it.

...we once had 19 biomes in the xmls. 19. Now we functionally have 3. And they cause a bigger fps drop than the 19.

Jesus, I was actually going to make a list of all the things we have lost, but what's the point. MM et al likes the for dummies version of the game, that's not going to change, so why bother.

Y'all have fun.

Hate to dog pile on, but I agree 100%. If (for example) new players can't figure out how to smelt iron ore, maybe they should stick to minecraft.

The current success of the game isn't because of the simplification, its because new random weapon stat, book, and mod systems are tight.

They are being expanded though at the sacrifice of over simplified crafting, which I'm not sure is a great direction.

I miss biome diversity a LOT, and what made the earlier struggle the most fun was jumping through those old crafting steps to achieve progress. Now people just run into any building, lure the zeds out, and frame hop up to loot rooms for the guns, ammo and armor.

If I want the dumbed down shorter borderlands or fortnite game exeriences, I play them. When I want a longer more satisfying game playthrough, we play 7 days.

But we are starting to loose a lot of that gameplay through too much simplification. (And this is NOT about just the loss of raw iron, its about the simplification or schematic gating of everything crafting wise. In all ou playthroughs, I've never seen for instance steel arrow schematics. So the archery weapon tree is pretty worthless mid to end game, because you can;t do enough stealth damage fast enough to keep up with tougher zeds.

(Try to stop a charging cop with iron arrows.)

Oddly, I've also STILL never seen one demolisher.

 

[madmole]

New experminetal b6 is out. Nice bug fixes and changes. Notably shotguns were buffed.
"Eating glass is more efficient, generating a death penalty of 25%". Not that I mind the change, but I doubt it will have a lasting effect since there are lots of other easy ways to kill yourself, for example standing in a spike trap.

That is probably Gazz's tricky way of saying the death penalty is 25% now, no matter how you die.

 

[Gareee]

Streamlining everything is great for the game. For balancing, for maintainability of the code, for augmenting the code with more functions. A18 makes huge strides in the fun factor involving character building and questing. However, all three things that the game is known for has lost some luster. Survival, Horde, Crafting. Many people say 7D2D has become more of a looter-shooter. I'm fine with that, just not at the expense of everything else.

Sadly that seems to be the current direction they are heading. They should just release a completely dumbed down fortnite/borderlands zombie looter shooter without any crafting as a separate easy game mode for beginners, and stop killing off crafting gameplay for the deeper survival game mode.

Nights are now just spent organizing the daily loot haul.

 

[madmole]

So there I was day 7-- lookin good... healthy... somewhat wealthy.... wise...? no..I started back to camp to prep for the oncoming attack... excitedly I just started running... no bicycle yet due to harsh conditions/desert town...

so im running by a fortified camper.... didn't look around,... run over 3 mines...dead...

aww... man... dead is dead... time to start a new game. the zombies couldn't kill me but my lack of perception certainly did.

It's always a careless mistake.

 

[Locusta]

Even if scrapping had a penalty, I don't see any hard choice. Maybe you don't know that you simply can craft (scrap) iron out of the forge again, not only forged iron and steel. So once smelted the iron ore was as versatile as scrap iron.

The hard choice WAS do I tie up my forge making scrap iron from iron ore (to craft turret ammo for example) or do I make forged iron or iron bars (to base build)? Again, you actually had to smelt before getting scrap iron (unless you took the ore scrapping penalty, which I never did), now you don’t have to think about it. Make ammo and forge the rest at the same time. :sleeping:

Loc

 

[Kattla]

Removing iron ore !?? What's the next step ? Removing the hoe and definitely break the game ?

Removal of lead items other then pure lead and bullet tips.

Then removal of brass items like doorknobs and radiators, so they loot directly to scrapped brass.

edit: Think we'll get as far as getting cement mix directly from mining stone?

 

[meganoth]

I’m mainly referring to the example of making turret ammunition from iron. The “old way” would be to smelt iron ore into iron and craft ammo from that. Without the scrapping penalty, you could essentially scrap iron ore into iron and make ammo immediately. Now, you don’t have to do any of that because you get iron straight away. It was never about saving space. It was about the process, choice and time management. It’s not something I’m going to go on and on about, but I still think it should be noteworthy that some people still think crafting is fun when it’s a bigger process.

Loc

Bigger sure, but then also more interesting please. Make alloys out of x and y and have that as ingredient to a few recipes. Use gems for some recipes, the diamond-tipped mod is a good example. More of this please.

But don't waste tears on steps that don't generate choice but only grind.

 

[madmole]

You might be right. It has happened any time I tried to build a 4k map, with different names. I'll look into reporting since I like to help you guys get better.
UPDATINGTON: This time I have been moving my mouse around, so rather than freezing up the PC at

GENERATING DETAIL HEIGHT DATA
15%

it has now got to

GENERATING DETAIL HEIGHT DATA
83%

and been stuck there for 10+ minutes.

I was able to restart the computer, generate the map, freeze on loading in, restart again, and get into the game on prior attempts. This time I can probably just Alt+F4 and go back in to get it working. If not, I'll post a bug report for you lovely people. I appreciate that you lot took my swimming skill and other suggestions into consideration, so I'll help you out.

Also, game not responding to ALT+F4 atm since it's partially locked.

Post your log and the seed name so we can try to repro. Thanks, I like your new attitude

In the meantime you could try to start a dedi and generate the map with that. It is slower but maybe more reliable. It shouldn't freeze your machine either since its just a windowed app.