PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!
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Aurelius
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You are aware that Guppy had the placeable lantern that you love, in game, a *long* time ago?
And that he had a working rager zombie, in game, a *long* time ago?
If Guppy (or Jax, or Tin, or Stompy, etc.) added a good gameplay element first, and TFP added it second, who's the peasant?
I'm just saying Guppy and others have implemented some good design decisions - they're probably qualified to at least make some commentary.
(PS, I know Guppy can be abrasive. He does it to shepherd people in a certain direction.)
-A
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MechanicalLens
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Nothing unique about placeable lanterns and hostile mobs entering a rage mode; been there, done that. They're cool, but what I said previously means that no one can claim rights over them.
They're in the game, awesome! They were around beforehand? That's cool. I don't understand why people are getting so riled up over this. 
Roland
Moderator
Can we admit that honestly there is a difference between game designer and modder? I appreciate as much as any the contributions of modders but they don't rise to the same level as putting out a game. Let's not forget who is standing on whose shoulders.
Madmole was a modder and then he became a game developer. There is a difference and he knows it and recognizes when someone has what it takes to move from one sphere to the next.
After all....Gazz was a modder who is now a game developer.
So good on Guppy for doing a placeable lantern and a rager zombie. How would he have done that without the game? Guppy's contributions cannot exist without what Madmole has created but Madmole's creation can exist without Guppy's contributions. Perhaps, one might say the game without Guppy's contribution isn't worth existing-- but that is just personal preference and opinion.
From another perspective...
My own mod would never exist without Guppy's help. He not only helped by building the foundation of some of the modlets I altered but he also put me in touch with those who could help code things that couldn't be done in xml alone. I would never ever presume to post as though I was at his level of modding. It would be presumptuous of me to do so even though he himself would deny it in his own charming self-deprecating manner.
Let's just say that in some of the posts directed toward Madmole there has been some presumptuousness that not even the inclusion of a smilie could completely mask...
Aurelius
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I'm a little late to the *ahem* discussion, but my point wasn't that it's Guppy's idea, or belongs to Guppy.Nothing unique about placeable lanterns and hostile mobs entering a rage mode; been there, done that. They're cool, but what I said previously means that no one can claim rights over them.
It dismantles MM argument that Guppy can't comment on design decisions because he's never published anything. Fact of the matter, Guppy added stuff to the game as a mod (like back in A12?) which TFP has recently added in to vanilla. I don't care who came up with it first, who published it first - doesn't matter. Guppy's been publishing game play decisions for awhile now, and TFP is playing ketchup.
I'd say he (along with a handful of other modders around here) are more than qualified to comment. That's ALL I'm saying.
-A
Edit: Same point to you Roland - my scope of argument is just about "appeal to authority" for gameplay decisions, not about who came up with what first, second or third.
Yes, I understand the modder's couldn't have done anything without TFP's work (come on, I'm a software developer - you know that I know
) but we be tilting at different windmills than that.
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They definitely do great work and are allowed to comment, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are correct or even know what they're talking about in certain situations. This is especially true given how MM and the team are on a completely different level with respect to game development, have far more experience with the engine/code, much more feedback from their huge community about what's good design and what isn't, etcI'm a little late to the *ahem* discussion, but my point wasn't that it's Guppy's idea, or belongs to Guppy.
It dismantles MM argument that Guppy can't comment on design decisions because he's never published anything. Fact of the matter, Guppy added stuff to the game as a mod (like back in A12?) which TFP has recently added in to vanilla. I don't care who came up with it first, who published it first - doesn't matter. Guppy's been publishing game play decisions for awhile now, and TFP is playing ketchup.
I'd say he (along with a handful of other modders around here) are more than qualified to comment. That's ALL I'm saying.
-A
Edit: Same point to you Roland - my scope of argument is just about "appeal to authority" for gameplay decisions, not about who came up with what first, second or third.
Yes, I understand the modder's couldn't have done anything without TFP's work (come on, I'm a software developer - you know that I know
All in all I'm sure no hard feelings were meant.
MechanicalLens
New member
Of course, of course; my argument was simply that it doesn't matter who invented the concept first, as you pointed out.I'm a little late to the *ahem* discussion, but my point wasn't that it's Guppy's idea, or belongs to Guppy.
It dismantles MM argument that Guppy can't comment on design decisions because he's never published anything. Fact of the matter, Guppy added stuff to the game as a mod (like back in A12?) which TFP has recently added in to vanilla. I don't care who came up with it first, who published it first - doesn't matter. Guppy's been publishing game play decisions for awhile now, and TFP is playing ketchup.
I'd say he (along with a handful of other modders around here) are more than qualified to comment. That's ALL I'm saying.
-A
Edit: Same point to you Roland - my scope of argument is just about "appeal to authority" for gameplay decisions, not about who came up with what first, second or third.
Yes, I understand the modder's couldn't have done anything without TFP's work (come on, I'm a software developer - you know that I know
One version is not superior to the other; it's all a matter of personal preference.
Zombie_Jam
New member
Same applies to the devs.
Especially when it comes to facilitating players. I understand the developers are making their game, but it isn't for them. It's for us. They are developing a product and it's aimed at a market.
Sometimes they add stuff and remove it later, sometimes they remove stuff and add garbage, sometimes they give us great stuff, and sometimes they don't listen.
I suppose it's all about developing in between a rock and a hard place, and still trying to develop something close to their own vision.
So when it comes to who knows best, or better, yeah. It's situational.
I'd say it's good for everyone to bear in mind that just because you're a developer you don't always know what's best for the players, and as a player we don't always know what's best for the game.
This is why discussion is critical, and paying attention to the content of (not always well articulated) points (
) in order to gauge all perspectives on the current state of development is necessary 
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MechanicalLens
New member
WOW. So I'm cruising down a street, not wanting to do another quest, but I thought I'd do so anyway just because. Guess what I find? 
3 traders on the same street. LOL
3 traders on the same street. LOL
Roland
Moderator
I'm talking about "appeal to authority" as well and there is only one authority when it comes to gameplay decisions for this game and that is being one of the developers for the game. Gazz used to not have that authority but now he does. Madmole didn't have that authority for Skyrim but he has it for this game.I'm a little late to the *ahem* discussion, but my point wasn't that it's Guppy's idea, or belongs to Guppy.
It dismantles MM argument that Guppy can't comment on design decisions because he's never published anything. Fact of the matter, Guppy added stuff to the game as a mod (like back in A12?) which TFP has recently added in to vanilla. I don't care who came up with it first, who published it first - doesn't matter. Guppy's been publishing game play decisions for awhile now, and TFP is playing ketchup.
I'd say he (along with a handful of other modders around here) are more than qualified to comment. That's ALL I'm saying.
-A
Edit: Same point to you Roland - my scope of argument is just about "appeal to authority" for gameplay decisions, not about who came up with what first, second or third.
Yes, I understand the modder's couldn't have done anything without TFP's work (come on, I'm a software developer - you know that I know
The big advantage modders have over developers is that they don't have to worry about priorities, balance, or standards to the level that the designers of the game do. They can add whatever they want as early as they wish and with questionable quality and are forgiven because people know it is a mod of a game in alpha without full mod support anyway. It isn't really an issue of TFP playing ketchup as you put it. It is an issue of TFP developing the game according to their priorities and meeting their standards of performance and playability whereas modders don't have any of those constraints.
A developer has access to the roadmap and knows the future plans and how they want all systems to work together. That is the developer's advantage over a modder who adds this piece or that piece to the game. That is what gives them authority that a modder cannot hope to attain unless they are elevated to the status of a developer. Ask Gazz what he had to work with then vs what he has access to now.
So I respect modders for what they do with the limited resources they have but I also am honest enough to admit that they do their things mostly blind to the big picture of the game since they aren't privy. And in that respect I respectfully disagree with your assertion that modders like Jax and Guppy should have equal say or have a tone to their posts that they have equal authority to bandy ideas and tell a developer that he is wrong.
Of course, they can share their opinion that Madmole is wrong. But it isn't any kind of authority that anyone else should appeal to or consider equal to that of a developer.
Really, I can't believe any of this needs to be said. I get that people feel they have a strong internet relationship with Jax and Guppy and didn't like Madmole putting them in their place in such a blunt manner. Madmole, himself, stated that it wasn't out of anger or being mean. He was showing that professionally there is a world of difference between a modder and a developer. It's clear though that modders have their own loyal fans ready to pick up pitchforks on their behalf. It's not really needed. Just accept the truth that modders don't rise to the same level as developers as authorities on game design for the games they work on.
Look at it this way, if Madmole decided that he needed to mod Fallout 76 in order to make it playable for his own sensibilities and he posted on the official forum for that game, he would not have the same authority as the developers for Fallout 76 even though he is a developer for this game. Sure they could meet up at E3 and talk shop about developing in general and swap stories and cautionary tales, but on the topic of Fallout 76 they would be developers and he would just be a modder.
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Zombie_Jam
New member
Looking for trouble?
Roland
Moderator
The problem with your perspective is that you are acting as though the developers have the same amount of information as the players and in that you are incorrect. I know that you dislike being told that you are commenting based on limited information and that you feel that your speculative logic based on the bits and pieces you have read about A18 give you enough information to know whether you will like it or not and in the area of your own preferences you might be right.
But in the area of designing the game I'm going to go with the folks who know the whole roadmap and know exactly what they plan to do and how what they are currently cutting and adding fits with that rather than the folks who have only played up through A17 and are obssessing about the past and the way the game used to be as if A16 or A15 ever was intended to be the way the finished game was supposed to play.
Developers aren't infallible but just because you personally don't like a decision they make doesn't make it a garbage decision. Others will like it and in many cases it is just a milestone on the way to the final version that you have absolutely no clue is in the background. The very fact that some people don't believe that TFP has a roadmap or a project manager shows how little of the forest they can see for the trees. When I read the roadmap I can easily see how each and every alpha has brought them closer to their goals. What seems random to outsiders is simply ignorance of the overall plan so it appears random.
Roland
Moderator
Oh, you just need a Madmole translator. The first statement is exactly what he was saying. In fact, I think he did make a statement almost like the first before he finally made the statement more like the second when those adorable modders ignored the first in the zeal and error of their thinking that they were colleagues.
Now I will agree that customer service speech is not Madmole's strong suit. He is blunt and is not concerned at all with bruising someone's ego. Some have a desire that he not interact directly but hire a public relations front man who can disseminate all of his talking points with a plastic smile and hearty handshake for all.
But that pool of people is small, I'm guessing.
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Aurelius
New member
Well... poop. I guess that's to be expected when playing the 50 page ketchup game on only a couple hours of sleep.
BTW, I think the plastic + acid = tires recipe is strange too... but then again I only have a chemistry degree, so I'm not qualified to comment.
*skips away*
-A
Zombie_Jam
New member
I never acted in any such way.
In fact, to the contrary. I am saying that discussion between the developers and the players is necessary because of the fact the devs don't have all player experience, and the players don't have developer knowledge - and in order for both vacuums of ignorance to be filled discussion must take place
I'm not talking about my own personal likes and dislikes by the way.
Btw, what does make something a garbage decision?
And if them making a change I don't like doesn't make it a garbage decision, would them making a change that I personally approve of necessarily make it a good one?
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