PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[AtomicUs5000]

I say since turning off the blood moon horde isn’t good enough for the people who dig underground bases, just remove that feature. The only reason it exists was to appease this play style and apprarently it’s not good enough.

Sorry, I was always against them adding this feature. I love the idea of player choice, but horde night defines this game. Removing it destroys its foundation, no pun intended.

 

[RipClaw]

I say since turning off the blood moon horde isn’t good enough for the people who dig underground bases, just remove that feature. The only reason it exists was to appease this play style and apprarently it’s not good enough.

Where does this prejudice come from that players who build underground bases want to avoid the horde ? Is it so unimaginable that there are other reasons to build an underground base ?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Where does this prejudice come from that players who build underground bases want to avoid the horde ? Is it so unimaginable that there are other reasons to build an underground base ?

Because I've started threads on the very topic and that's just how the majority flies.

 

[Aldranon]

So... does anyone have an opinion on farming?

Not yet. I want to try and see how things work first. The sickness debuff might make food survival stretch out longer, but I cant see any problems.

 

[RipClaw]

Because I've started threads on the very topic and that's just how the majority flies.

I've had the exact opposite experience. Everyone I know who has an underground base also has a horde base in which to fight the horde. The players don't hide.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I've had the exact opposite experience. Everyone I know who has an underground base also has a horde base in which to fight the horde. The players don't hide.

I sometimes have an underground base and fight the horde as well. I don't have a problem with digging zombies. There are nuisance on the top, they are a nuisance on the bottom... just a fact of the game.

 

[dregonazure]

I haven't even read the discussion, but can you point ONE person who objects to having a menu option to disable/enable digging or whatever?


What about those who wanted to build underground but didn't want to be safe? And what about those who wanted to build wherever and also wanted a complete survival game, in which you will have to TRY to survive (because that's what a survival game is) and doesn't have an on-demand god mode right under their feet? It's completely asinine to suggest that they have to actively try to put themselves in danger in order to get that survival experience.

You have to understand that it's a completely different thing to add menu options for various player preferences VS catering to those preferences within the game itself.

Underground base defense is abit flawed though in that you can't actually defend such a base until the base has been breached. Ideally for an underground base you would expect the zombies to go through your entrance to get to you, allowing for traps to be set along the way. As it stands though, there is no such thing as underground defence, as they will just ignore the realistic path and instead just make their own tunnels to you. Personally, untill this can be fully addressed, I'd rather they just remove digging zombies, or at least add a toggle option.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Underground base defense is abit flawed though in that you can't actually defend such a base until the base has been breached. Ideally for an underground base you would expect the zombies to go through your entrance to get to you, allowing for traps to be set along the way. As it stands though, there is no such thing as underground defence, as they will just ignore the realistic path and instead just make their own tunnels to you. Personally, untill this can be fully addressed, I'd rather they just remove digging zombies, or at least an option.

Well if your entrance is chunks away, what do you expect? The same thing would happen above ground.

Underground bases need protection vertically. A trap tunnel could be made as a spiral staircase instead of horizontally like you would see for a surface base.

 

[andrough]

Underground base defense is abit flawed though in that you can't actually defend such a base until the base has been breached. Ideally for an underground base you would expect the zombies to go through your entrance to get to you, allowing for traps to be set along the way. As it stands though, there is no such thing as underground defence, as they will just ignore the realistic path and instead just make their own tunnels to you. Personally, untill this can be fully addressed, I'd rather they just remove digging zombies, or at least add a toggle option.

This sounds pretty reasonable. I hope some of the upcoming AI improvements will allow for this. Do you have some layers of strong blocks above you or just terrain? I honestly just went ahead and moved above ground once the zombies learned to dig, but I always assumed that manipulating them into the route you want them to take would work to keep them from digging straight down to you. This is what I do with my mines. I usually leave the hatch open so they can enter and run into a little trench with barbed wire(hatch drawbridge for me over this). That way I can deal with them in a more comfortable space than trying to attack from my ladder or allowing them to dig through the soft terrain to get to me.

 

[Morloc]

...even the most hardcore PVP player agrees Pimps could care LESS about PVP in this game.

Ah-ha!....deceptive inverted verbiage to confuse the reader. Jax says that the Pimps "could care less" which would imply that they do in fact care about PvP! Clearly a PvP advocate in sheep's clothing!

-Morloc

 

[SnowDog1942]

Ah and there's that good old mentality again. Black and white fallacious reasoning.
Re: your question - do you want me to explain with pictures and some singy songs?

Simple. To fight the hordes whenever it pleases you, and avoiding those you don't want to fight - instead of having hordes every week or no hordes ever. Is this really so difficult for people to understand?

Turning hordes on and off can be done at any time, I still don’t see the issue.

 

[meganoth]

Underground base defense is abit flawed though in that you can't actually defend such a base until the base has been breached. Ideally for an underground base you would expect the zombies to go through your entrance to get to you, allowing for traps to be set along the way. As it stands though, there is no such thing as underground defence, as they will just ignore the realistic path and instead just make their own tunnels to you. Personally, untill this can be fully addressed, I'd rather they just remove digging zombies, or at least an option.

On horde night:

The advantage of an underground horde base is about using the fall damage of the zombies. Consequently you need a chasm and induce the horde to generally jump down there. Good news: Fataal improved the AI in A18 so zombies will be more likely to take the fast route and drop into a chasm.

Digging zombies don't matter in this szenario except to provide some variability (dumb zombies might dig instead of using the obvious way into the chasm) and like with any other horde base design punish mistakes.

Rest of the week:

Your crafting base is defended above ground, the only necessary defense is a patch of spike traps against screamers. Stealth is 100% on bedrock. If you really want to defend underground, use your horde base as crafting base as well, zombie visitors will fall into the traps you put up for horde night.

 

[madmole]

I think there's a misunderstanding here.
The playstyle that people are talking about here is one that is familiar to me because it was the playstyle I used in A15 and A16.

That playstyle is basically:

• Have an underground bunker for everyday use that keeps your stuff safe and doesn't need repairing.
  
• Go out and about during the day hunting, looting, and scavenging; then at night retreat to your safe underground base to sort your spoils, cook, craft, and do some mining.
  
• On Blood Moon nights, spend the night in a separate horde base that isn't underground. Fight the horde from that base for the XP and loot.

Your responses seem to indicate that you think the purpose of an underground base (and the purpose of being able to turn off diggers) is to avoid horde night, but that's not what's being asked.

The people asking for zombie digging to be optional aren't wanting to turn it off to avoid horde night - if they want to do that they can simply turn blood moons off in the options. That's not a problem. The people asking for zombie digging to be optional are wanting to turn it off so they can have a maintenance-free base to retreat to on nights other than horde night. They still want to fight zombies from a surface "horde base" on horde night.

That works fine right now, we don't need to add any code to support that. If you are above the ground at a horde base, on horde night, then no zombie will be digging to your underground crafting base. Additionally, with the features added to 18 if you die defending your blood moon base above ground, you can respawn safely underground and they will not dig to you, unless you somehow shoot one of them from an easily seen position in your underground base.

 

[ZombieSurvivor]

I will concede the point to you re: where do the choices end and I will agree that the choices are what require discussion. But this isn't just random stuff, or microtweaks.
What I was referring to are features that have been/ may be added - big ones that really change how the game plays. Zombies digging was one of those huge changes. And it's divisive.

I think a large part of why digging was added was because of a certain bunch of people who cried because they couldn't find their enemies in multiplayer games who had built bunker bases, and wanted to force then out onto the surface.

Having the choice to build underground without having the landscape turned into swiss cheese was already there. Those who wanted brutal combat, raids, and hordes had it. Those who wanted all that and a safe deep underground retreat also had that. Those who wanted neither, or both also had their way.

But it all had to be removed because those who don't want underground building without the cheesemaker zombies complained enough to instigate bringing digging into the game.

I do have a question though, specifically for you, Roland. A genuine question too, re: toggling digging. If Faatal said the option may be added post gold then why didn't they wait until the option was viable before throwing it in?

Perhaps if it is made as an option it could go in with zombie types for the game instance (if ever they were added.)

By the way I wrote my previous comments with very little sleep

WOW you must have or must still work for The Fun Pimps considering you talk as if you know the exact reasons behind decision making at TFP.

I would love to know what your sources are for the claim that you believe The Fun Pimps made digging zombies because players complained about underground bases.

 

[madmole]

I hate when people complain about the A.I being to smart for zombies. Having a dumb zombie wouldn't be fun in this game where we can build anything. The players oppose a massive challenge for the zombies to overcome. You are asking for the game to be boringly easy and not that dynamic when you say the zombies just need to run at walls and hit them.
They don't use cover, they don't dodge and they don't run away when there going to die. They're zombies that are meant to traverse voxels to get to you and challenge players. It's an obvious trade-off that they had to make. Do you want the game to be fun and challenging so the players would actually engage themselves in base building or make the zombies slightly be more like the zombies in your unrealistic zombie show /movie. Digging is also necessary.

Well said.

 

[ZombieSurvivor]

@Mademole.

Good morning, looks like we both jumped on the forums at the same time this morning.

I hope all is going well at TFP.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah-ha!....deceptive inverted verbiage to confuse the reader. Jax says that the Pimps "could care less" which would imply that they do in fact care about PvP! Clearly a PvP advocate in sheep's clothing!

-Morloc

The Fun Pimps care for us PVP players!!! This is news to me lol. Just joking.

I'm sure that us PVP players might get a little love after the game goes gold. :smile-new:

 

[madmole]

@TFP Will bandits be carrying shovels, picks and axes when they are introduced into the game, i.e. will they be able to destroy blocks to reach us?
I can understand how it's frustrating coping with changes to the game throughout the early access process, but what confuses me is deeming these changes as breaking the game. We signed up for these changes opting to play a game in development. There have definitely been some updates I'd rather leave than take, but, for me at least, it's been a big bonus adjusting my playstyle and figuring out how to deal with the changes. Especially in a sandbox, voxel world like this one- there are so many different ways to adjust.

This is similar to what Ripclaw and I got into a bit earlier. I agree that if the changes are big and maybe not very well balanced, they may force the majority of players into what feels like a single solution to cope with the changes, like the zombies having laser-focused breaching skills. But even there, while Ripclaw felt forced into a funnel horde base, I couldn't stand it and spent some time figuring out a solution that suited me better.

It's immersion-breaking for me to have my forges in cave with no ventilation. Sure, you could be wearing a gas mask, but eventually they consume all the oxygen present. How the hell do they stay lit? :concern:

Maybe, we've talked about adding tools as a way of increasing difficulty and adding a special challenge. 17 was just a million changes all coming online at once. Now we've taken feedback and tweaked it all, changed a bit and I feel like we've turned a bit of a ♥♥♥♥ show into something very special. I'm on my 4th long term build now, so imagine 8x the testing from just one guy, now multiply that x20 at least with all the other devs and testers testing and providing feedback, plus the 17 feedback from the community all wrapped and polished with loads of new content.

 

[Roland]

I will concede the point to you re: where do the choices end and I will agree that the choices are what require discussion. But this isn't just random stuff, or microtweaks.
What I was referring to are features that have been/ may be added - big ones that really change how the game plays. Zombies digging was one of those huge changes. And it's divisive.

Actually, the big change was the initial removal of zombie digging. The big change you're referring to was the reinstatement of a feature that existed from the game's inception and then was removed for a time until it could be fixed. The lack of zombie diggers for a few alphas was the big change that didn't belong.

I think a large part of why digging was added was because of a certain bunch of people who cried because they couldn't find their enemies in multiplayer games who had built bunker bases, and wanted to force then out onto the surface.
Having the choice to build underground without having the landscape turned into swiss cheese was already there. Those who wanted brutal combat, raids, and hordes had it. Those who wanted all that and a safe deep underground retreat also had that. Those who wanted neither, or both also had their way.

But it all had to be removed because those who don't want underground building without the cheesemaker zombies complained enough to instigate bringing digging into the game.

That fact that zombies could dig from Alpha 1 blows your theory to smithereens. The fact that none of the decision making developer/owners of TFP even play PvP further demolishes your theory.

I do have a question though, specifically for you, Roland. A genuine question too, re: toggling digging. If Faatal said the option may be added post gold then why didn't they wait until the option was viable before throwing it in?
Perhaps if it is made as an option it could go in with zombie types for the game instance (if ever they were added.)

By the way I wrote my previous comments with very little sleep

That sounds more like a question for faatal than a question for me....

 

[madmole]

False. A developer has every right to lay out how they expect mechanics to work in their game. If the vision is you fight on horde night, you fight on horde night. He is giving you your out by saying die and accept the penalty, or turn horde nights off. If they do not want you to have a safe haven but always be on guard, thats what the vision is.
Apply that logic to other areas of the game. I dont feel like losing stamina for running, I dont feel like buying a perk to get better at harvesting meat etc. Blood Moon is a decided mechanic that devs do not want you to skip out of without consequences. End of story.

Should it be moddable? YES! That is one point i agree on. Right now you CANT make a mod to have no diggers. THAT I disagree with.

This is true, just like a modder doesn't need to bend a knee either. Sometimes its the diplomatic thing to do, but in most cases you stick to your faction and win the war. The survival horde crafting game isn't the simulation do a horde when I feel like it craft everything game.

We're all for mod support when we're gold, and we're all for options that add game play value and some simulation controls.

 

[Snif]

Think you can log out every evening (especially bloodmoon) at 21.55 and safely log back in the morning, so that your favorite toy house doesn't get any scratches or anything?

Add smell.

Even though you log out, you will leave a scent for zombies, who will occasionally try to find the source of the smell. They would dig, destroy, pillage to find the source of that delicious smell of fresh meat.

Zombie digging? Hell yeah! Want to protect your precious base down on the bedrock? Make sure the walls are 3 tiles thick in case a horde catches the smell. There should be a time limit for the smell though. Maybe 5 game days or so.

This would require the server to be awake even if there are no players online, so I don't know how technically plausible this would even be.

I was VERY happy to see the damage increase of the new exploding zombie btw. Things are (were?) too easy for high-level players with top weapons and lots of ammo.