PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

How are you going to fight them at your underground base with digging disabled?

You can avoid them digging to your base now by giving up 20% xp. Go die, respawn underground and they will leave you alone the rest of the night.

I think there's a misunderstanding here.

The playstyle that people are talking about here is one that is familiar to me because it was the playstyle I used in A15 and A16.

That playstyle is basically:

• Have an underground bunker for everyday use that keeps your stuff safe and doesn't need repairing.
  
• Go out and about during the day hunting, looting, and scavenging; then at night retreat to your safe underground base to sort your spoils, cook, craft, and do some mining.
  
• On Blood Moon nights, spend the night in a separate horde base that isn't underground. Fight the horde from that base for the XP and loot.

Your responses seem to indicate that you think the purpose of an underground base (and the purpose of being able to turn off diggers) is to avoid horde night, but that's not what's being asked.

The people asking for zombie digging to be optional aren't wanting to turn it off to avoid horde night - if they want to do that they can simply turn blood moons off in the options. That's not a problem. The people asking for zombie digging to be optional are wanting to turn it off so they can have a maintenance-free base to retreat to on nights other than horde night. They still want to fight zombies from a surface "horde base" on horde night.

 

[Dazrael21]

I think there's a misunderstanding here.
The playstyle that people are talking about here is one that is familiar to me because it was the playstyle I used in A15 and A16.

That playstyle is basically:

• Have an underground bunker for everyday use that keeps your stuff safe and doesn't need repairing.
  
• Go out and about during the day hunting, looting, and scavenging; then at night retreat to your safe underground base to sort your spoils, cook, craft, and do some mining.
  
• On Blood Moon nights, spend the night in a separate horde base that isn't underground. Fight the horde from that base for the XP and loot.

...

I agree with these sentiments. This is close to my playstyle, and I'm still using it in A17. I build an underground crafting/storage base (just above bedrock), and build a Horde-fighting base above it.

I never avoid fighting the horde - it's fun, and it's a good source of XP. I like to have all my stuff and expensive crafting stations 'safe' underground.

Initially, I did have a small problem with diggers, but in my current game my surface base now covers so much ground that wandering hordes or screamers will run into the defences before they reach a point where they decide to dig down. I think it's footprint is about 15 X 15, including outer spikes.

I can cope with diggers as they are. I wouldn't object if there was an option to turn them off. If they got 'worse' - i.e., were more likely to dig down, or started from further out, I have previously tried building above the surface base instead - skyscraper style. But collapse always worry me. Separate crafting/fighting bases would be more inconvenient, but probably my final fallback.

 

[Zombiepoptard]

I hate when people complain about the A.I being to smart for zombies. Having a dumb zombie wouldn't be fun in this game where we can build anything. The players oppose a massive challenge for the zombies to overcome. You are asking for the game to be boringly easy and not that dynamic when you say the zombies just need to run at walls and hit them.

They don't use cover, they don't dodge and they don't run away when there going to die. They're zombies that are meant to traverse voxels to get to you and challenge players. It's an obvious trade-off that they had to make. Do you want the game to be fun and challenging so the players would actually engage themselves in base building or make the zombies slightly be more like the zombies in your unrealistic zombie show /movie. Digging is also necessary.

 

[andrough]

@TFP Will bandits be carrying shovels, picks and axes when they are introduced into the game, i.e. will they be able to destroy blocks to reach us?

I can understand how it's frustrating coping with changes to the game throughout the early access process, but what confuses me is deeming these changes as breaking the game. We signed up for these changes opting to play a game in development. There have definitely been some updates I'd rather leave than take, but, for me at least, it's been a big bonus adjusting my playstyle and figuring out how to deal with the changes. Especially in a sandbox, voxel world like this one- there are so many different ways to adjust.

This is similar to what Ripclaw and I got into a bit earlier. I agree that if the changes are big and maybe not very well balanced, they may force the majority of players into what feels like a single solution to cope with the changes, like the zombies having laser-focused breaching skills. But even there, while Ripclaw felt forced into a funnel horde base, I couldn't stand it and spent some time figuring out a solution that suited me better.

I want the ability to disable the annoying digging. It wrecks the landscape and is completely immersion breaking to have a forge lit and some wandering zombies be able to sense that many tens of blocks down - beneath dirt, stone, and player made reinforced concrete.

It's immersion-breaking for me to have my forges in cave with no ventilation. Sure, you could be wearing a gas mask, but eventually they consume all the oxygen present. How the hell do they stay lit? :concern:

 

[JaxTeller718]

Players should have choice. That doesn't require discussion.

False. A developer has every right to lay out how they expect mechanics to work in their game. If the vision is you fight on horde night, you fight on horde night. He is giving you your out by saying die and accept the penalty, or turn horde nights off. If they do not want you to have a safe haven but always be on guard, thats what the vision is.

Apply that logic to other areas of the game. I dont feel like losing stamina for running, I dont feel like buying a perk to get better at harvesting meat etc. Blood Moon is a decided mechanic that devs do not want you to skip out of without consequences. End of story.

Should it be moddable? YES! That is one point i agree on. Right now you CANT make a mod to have no diggers. THAT I disagree with.

 

[crazywildfire]

False. A developer has every right to lay out how they expect mechanics to work in their game. If the vision is you fight on horde night, you fight on horde night. He is giving you your out by saying die and accept the penalty, or turn horde nights off. If they do not want you to have a safe haven but always be on guard, thats what the vision is.
Apply that logic to other areas of the game. I dont feel like losing stamina for running, I dont feel like buying a perk to get better at harvesting meat etc. Blood Moon is a decided mechanic that devs do not want you to skip out of without consequences. End of story.

Should it be moddable? YES! That is one point i agree on. Right now you CANT make a mod to have no diggers. THAT I disagree with.

Agree completely an option or a mod one or the other. But like Roland said maybe when it goes gold once they got it the way they want it.

 

[Gazz]

Alternate game modes are pretty much on ice until post release. Can't do 20 different games at once.

Sometimes options "happened" as part of a system overhaul but there is no goal to "add options".

 

[TundraWolf42]

Sure it does. This is a discussion forum. What if that choice impedes the development process? Also where is the line where we say, “Okay, that’s too many options”. Once all of YOUR preferences are toggled what about the next guy who cares about things you don’t? And then the next guy? And the next? at some point someone isn’t going to get their choice.
Players shouldn’t always get to have choice—especially during development testing. I’m all for an option on zombie digging but faatal said it would be complicated to do so it shouldn’t be a priority until after gold.

I feel the same, IMO, if every player got their way on games they would be a huge mess and more than likely unplayable for most. That's not to say player choice or options for a game is bad, just have to find the balance, as you already stated. I feel I get more options for my gameplay experience in this game than most other games I have played without using mods or editing code.

 

[Zombie_Jam]

Sure it does. This is a discussion forum. What if that choice impedes the development process? Also where is the line where we say, “Okay, that’s too many options”. Once all of YOUR preferences are toggled what about the next guy who cares about things you don’t? And then the next guy? And the next? at some point someone isn’t going to get their choice.
Players shouldn’t always get to have choice—especially during development testing. I’m all for an option on zombie digging but faatal said it would be complicated to do so it shouldn’t be a priority until after gold.

I will concede the point to you re: where do the choices end and I will agree that the choices are what require discussion. But this isn't just random stuff, or microtweaks.

What I was referring to are features that have been/ may be added - big ones that really change how the game plays. Zombies digging was one of those huge changes. And it's divisive.

I think a large part of why digging was added was because of a certain bunch of people who cried because they couldn't find their enemies in multiplayer games who had built bunker bases, and wanted to force then out onto the surface.

Having the choice to build underground without having the landscape turned into swiss cheese was already there. Those who wanted brutal combat, raids, and hordes had it. Those who wanted all that and a safe deep underground retreat also had that. Those who wanted neither, or both also had their way.

But it all had to be removed because those who don't want underground building without the cheesemaker zombies complained enough to instigate bringing digging into the game.

I do have a question though, specifically for you, Roland. A genuine question too, re: toggling digging. If Faatal said the option may be added post gold then why didn't they wait until the option was viable before throwing it in?

Perhaps if it is made as an option it could go in with zombie types for the game instance (if ever they were added.)

By the way I wrote my previous comments with very little sleep

 

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

I agree with these sentiments. This is close to my playstyle, and I'm still using it in A17. I build an underground crafting/storage base (just above bedrock), and build a Horde-fighting base above it.

Somewhat ironically, after explaining the playstyle, it's one that I no longer use.

These days I do exactly the opposite. I use an above-ground base during the week, which I do have to defend against wandering hordes and other curious zombies, but I turn horde nights off.

Not because I can't handle them, but because I don't enjoy them. With a well designed base you're never in any danger but as someone who finds mining tedious as hell, spending half the week resource gathering and repairing for the next blood moon is just a chore.

So instead I turn blood moons off in the options and play with no horde-night base but an above ground "living" base.

 

[Zombie_Jam]

Somewhat ironically, after explaining the playstyle, it's one that I no longer use.
These days I do exactly the opposite. I use an above-ground base during the week, which I do have to defend against wandering hordes and other curious zombies, but I turn horde nights off.

Not because I can't handle them, but because I don't enjoy them. With a well designed base you're never in any danger but as someone who finds mining tedious as hell, spending half the week resource gathering and repairing for the next blood moon is just a chore.

So instead I turn blood moons off in the options and play with no horde-night base but an above ground "living" base.

That's a perfectly legitimate way of working with what you have.

I think something people don't see is the kind of work it takes to actually build a good living space deep underground - especially on single player.

Players aren't free of danger either. They may be free from the Cheesemakers (I'm having my term for zombie diggers copyrighted ) but they most certainly aren't free from dehydration (unless you have a crap ton of snow). And then there are tools and repair costs for going so far underground, and having screamers spawning above you (if you have generate enough heat) meaning a confrontation is likely inevitable. Then there's starvation.

Unless of course you have a farm above you, players are forced to go looting for food or hunting animals - which comes with its own dangers.

Materials for building the guns? Furniture? It all has to come from somewhere and that somewhere isn't underground.

I suppose my point is that having the Cheesemakers off mean't that people had their choices and that each choice comes with it's own limitations and punishments. Oh well, I really hope Faatal does get a chance to reevaluate this in the future.

 

[andrough]

I will concede the point to you re: where do the choices end and I will agree that the choices are what require discussion. But this isn't just random stuff, or microtweaks.
What I was referring to are features that have been/ may be added - big ones that really change how the game plays. Zombies digging was one of those huge changes. And it's divisive.

I think a large part of why digging was added was because of a certain bunch of people who cried because they couldn't find their enemies in multiplayer games who had built bunker bases, and wanted to force then out onto the surface.

Having the choice to build underground without having the landscape turned into swiss cheese was already there. Those who wanted brutal combat, raids, and hordes had it. Those who wanted all that and a safe deep underground retreat also had that. Those who wanted neither, or both also had their way.

But it all had to be removed because those who don't want underground building without the cheesemaker zombies complained enough to instigate bringing digging into the game.

PvPers will be happy to know that such a major change was made just to appease them. Mostly I see them say, "TFP give no ♥♥♥♥s about us."

I do have a question though, specifically for you, Roland. A genuine question too, re: toggling digging. If Faatal said the option may be added post gold then why didn't they wait until the option was viable before throwing it in?

Alternate game modes are pretty much on ice until post release. Can't do 20 different games at once.Sometimes options "happened" as part of a system overhaul but there is no goal to "add options".

I bookmarked Gazz's post, since it should probably be on a billboard somewhere anyway.

 

[Zombie_Jam]

PvPers will be happy to know that such a major change was made just to appease them. Mostly I see them say, "TFP gives no ♥♥♥♥s about us."




I bookmarked Gazz's post, since it should probably be on a billboard somewhere anyway.

Hey Andrough,

Yeah. I think this is why having options for big things like zombie digging, and also for exp modification is to facilitate the play environments between PVE and PVP, is important.

I love a challenge and TFP have made many great changes, just without the option to remove the Cheesemaker behaviour it's just a remnant of PVP which in my opinion ruins PVE. And for many reasons.

Not only the cheesemaking.

 

[Eliphas the Inheritor]

All you did was dig 3 deep and put one dirt over your head, safe and sound, snug as a bug in a rug.

I love A14 simply because I can get around 50 zombies coming for me at the same time, I modified it to make it a real challenge. 70% chance of being stunned, increased zombie damage so I get killed in 2 hits. I can easily make any Alpha challenging because I don't play it "vanilla" style, I always mod the xml files to my taste. So you think I can't get a challenge in A14? Think again. I don't need ferals or whatever to come for me, I can easily get 50 zombies coming for me and one hit is almost a death sentence since they are swarming me.

In A17 there are not enough zombies outside buildings. Yeah yeah, you got enough sleepers, but the game feels empty even with the modified spawning.xml. Hell, I can go around with a rocket launcher and destroy the house from outside and bait all the zombies somehow without risking my life. I miss the old days when you went to the city and the streets were filled with zombies. Now I can go in any city, including the small town Diersville and unload my pistol into any house and not get any zombies coming for me. I think you discussed about that and you said it was...delayed? And why you call me nuts because my taste is different than yours? Isn't that a bit unfair? I mean, I can call you nuts for doing a keto-like diet, but if you like it and it works, go for it, I got no right to call you nuts because I prefer other things. Now this reply is not related to the zombies and traps comments in the past days, I just told you why I love A14 more than A17.

 

[Gazz]

I think a large part of why digging was added was because of a certain bunch of people who cried because they couldn't find their enemies in multiplayer games who had built bunker bases, and wanted to force then out onto the surface.

No, but that would be a funny reason. =P

It's because zombies are the intended threat in this game.

If you only have to dig down 3 blocks and place a dirt block to close up the hole - that can not be a 100% safe horde base. And it was.

 

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

If you only have to dig down 3 blocks and place a dirt block to close up the hole - that can not be a 100% safe horde base. And it was.

Back in A15 and A16 we used to always find an empty plot in a town (because it's nice flat land) to build on, and then build a bunker where the roof was flush with the surrounding ground.

It wasn't too bad for the bunker itself, because it would at least have a solid roof, but we used to have large gardens with a glass roof too. Having a dozen zombies running in circles on the glass roof above your head unable to get to you despite the glass's fragility was rather ridiculous.

 

[Zombie_Jam]

No, but that would be a funny reason. =PIt's because zombies are the intended threat in this game.

If you only have to dig down 3 blocks and place a dirt block to close up the hole - that can not be a 100% safe horde base. And it was.

Am I right in thinking what you're saying is that people must face the horde unless they turn it off?

Yeah. There's that good old choice again.

Survival doesn't mean necessarily killing zombies, survival means not dying. If you can survive by being underground or on a rooftop, or by wiping out the horde or any combination of the former then it's survival.

 

[alchemi2]

Am I right in thinking what you're saying is that people must face the horde unless they turn it off?
Yeah. There's that good old choice again.

Survival doesn't mean necessarily killing zombies, survival means not dying. If you can survive by being underground or on a rooftop, or by wiping out the horde or any combination of the former then it's survival.

No he is saying that due to a poor game mechanic there was no threat to a player or base, they fixed the mechanic. Imo they should also punch up so as to break hatches when on ladders.

 

[SnowDog1942]

Am I right in thinking what you're saying is that people must face the horde unless they turn it off?
Yeah. There's that good old choice again.

Survival doesn't mean necessarily killing zombies, survival means not dying. If you can survive by being underground or on a rooftop, or by wiping out the horde or any combination of the former then it's survival.

I only want digging zombies, none above ground, can we get that as an option? I also want flying as another option. Additionally I want zombies that don’t try to attack me, please make an option. It’s all about MY choice right?

 

[SnowDog1942]

Not a fan of wasted dev time on a digging option. Just turn blood moons off. What is the difference between setting up an underground base and completely avoiding zombies whether the blood moon horde is on or off?