PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[unholyjoe]

It could be a perk. I think the spears that you throw should recharge so you don't actually lose the spear. If you don't pick the spear up it'll come back to you in five minutes or so. This way you could throw it in combat without the fear of losing it forever. Yeah, it's unreal but losing your valuable stuff do to what the spears designed to do kinda blows.

losing valuable stuff should have some consequences.

like some people blowing up their own gyros (oooops)

 

[Zombiepoptard]

Keep it up you might be off the naughty list soon

lol TEXTURES SUCK BIG ONES! jk

 

[meganoth]

But we ARE SEEING how the builds are being played and we are trying to discuss things early so they have time to at least think about what we are getting at. We aren't grabbing pitchforks (yet ). We're just putting the ideas forth based on the videos we've seen thus far. I don't see the problem. The "wait until you play it" excuse is getting old when there are glaring things that anyone can see.

It seems we are discussing an INT build. Show me where you saw one, because for sure MM didn't even begin one yet.

sorry gazz but you are wrong.
physician is auxillary adventurer is auxillary, workstations. need em, but easily found. auxillary. traps, love them, but still auxillary chems, see physician. vehicles, nice for carry and travel, but that is auxillary. this are all on the crafting and story type situations but dont do the same as...

do extra damage, hit easier, use your weapons better. survival stuff. Intel helps alot with all the side items. crafting, travel, healing is the one survival aspect so far. but on horde night. not as much. for clearing poi's, not as much. and you yourself said

"You have never seen what 3 turrets with mods and high perk level"

high level. so low to mid level doesnt sound as viable. and that is what we are asking. Not can we be gods, not can we be op. But viable at low to mid level when dealing with hordes. because that is what kills most people.

now, I am watching madmole play through and see what he comes up with. and I haven't played A18 yet. so we will see during experimental.

Just discussing your approach I say you make two mistakes:

You make conclusions out of some side comments from madmole while madmole is not known for the most accurate descriptions ("need 500 bullets to kill a demolisher with headshots",...).

And you think it is feedback when we are essentially playing chinese whisper with the knowledge of how the respective trees work in reality. I think this is fine as idle discussion but make no mistake, most of the time this does not help anyone at TFP. Only actually playing it will, because only then the real strengths and weaknesses become evident. See madmole who thought he wouldn't like a fortitude build and being surprised how effective and fun it was.

At the moment MM isn't even trying out an INT build. He is doing a perception build and shows he can't live without miner perks :cocksure: . An INT build might not really be anything people with shooting skills will ever consider. But that might be okay if there are players who want exactly this.

67 ducks per rabbit sounds about right. And you might also be right. Not a random value though. Top tier m60 does 120~ damage from what it was shown to us. 80x2 = 160 damage with 2 turrets. 240 if 3 turrets. That's my raw point . Fantasy is cool and all. My brain pellets say that INT might not be cool enough because turrets musn't be all there is to it.

INT was first advertised as the perk tree for people with two left hends or without shooter reflexes who like to be more of a support type player or player heavily invested in crafting and building. Fighting is not their primary mode and not their strong point.

Recipe perks in INT are supposed to have additional boni compared to the found recipe. THAT should be one of the strengths of the INT guy. We'll have to see if these advantages to crafting are serious enough, I have a some doubt here (I don't think crafting speed boni for example will get anyone to choose INT, being able to craft better versions of workstations, vehicles and other stuff would). If not ----> more Balancing.

Now assuming I still have a hand free while 1-3 turrets are blasting the enemy I don't even see how an INT guy could suck at fighting. He can use any other weapon, put down traps or blocks, run away or do melee and ADDITIONALLY his turrets do continuous damage with the cheapest ammo available (on par with arrows). Honestly, INT looks like it might be OP already.

 

[Zombie_Jam]

I was going to test the Draw Bridge to see if it can squish zombies, but I was sure someone tried it... right?
I even thought of testing it on myself and see if "something" happened. Yes, I'm bored, lol.

I'm not so sure about the testing but it sounds great.

What would be fun is a good old 5 deep rectangular hole 15 x 10 blocks wide with the same amount of blocks above.

Then a mechanism of releasing them, but instead of the raindrop way that blocks fall one after another, having all blocks fall as one huge slab and flattening the unfortunate zombies in the pit beneath it

 

[madmole]

sorry gazz but you are wrong.
physician is auxillary adventurer is auxillary, workstations. need em, but easily found. auxillary. traps, love them, but still auxillary chems, see physician. vehicles, nice for carry and travel, but that is auxillary. this are all on the crafting and story type situations but dont do the same as...

do extra damage, hit easier, use your weapons better. survival stuff. Intel helps alot with all the side items. crafting, travel, healing is the one survival aspect so far. but on horde night. not as much. for clearing poi's, not as much. and you yourself said

"You have never seen what 3 turrets with mods and high perk level"

high level. so low to mid level doesnt sound as viable. and that is what we are asking. Not can we be gods, not can we be op. But viable at low to mid level when dealing with hordes. because that is what kills most people.

now, I am watching madmole play through and see what he comes up with. and I haven't played A18 yet. so we will see during experimental.

I can put two turrets down and shoot a third myself, or use a firearm, Intellect is quite capable. Not to mention stun baton.

 

[wolfbain5]

I can put two turrets down and shoot a third myself, or use a firearm, Intellect is quite capable. Not to mention stun baton.

hope to see this soon.

 

[madmole]

I'll have to wait until Madmole makes a let's play series :tickled_pink:

The first common sense comment I've seen on the topic.

 

[Zombie_Jam]

I can put two turrets down and shoot a third myself, or use a firearm, Intellect is quite capable. Not to mention stun baton.

Do the turrets have 360 rotation? If not then you need to address some other things...

Like Vs an ordinary strength build wherein the player has full degree flexibility, those turrents would require choke points, which in turn requires planning and block placement.

Great at homebase, or killbase, not so good when out in POIs and you get sprung on...

(Some may mention POI doorways as organic chokepoints but there may be serious trouble if the junk turrent noise attracts a wandering horde.)

Also strength taking on a bunch of zombies is quite a different story to a player using a limited charge stun baton against the same gang of zombies.

I won't assume, but instead ask - is the stun baton low damage but high incapacity? If yes there's another consideration for when you get gang-banged.

 

[Zombiepoptard]

losing valuable stuff should have some consequences.like some people blowing up their own gyros (oooops)

I get what you are saying but javelins are not as disposable as arrows are. You wouldn't throw a valuable purple item if you didn't know you were going to retrieve it. So if you did get a valuable purple Javelin you probably won't throw it at all and use it's intended function.

 

[madmole]

again, adding words. never said unplayable. that is how trolling starts. changing or trying to imply what isnt there.
they are stating EACH is playable as a pure class. listen to his videos. and if one class cant fare as well as another but in different ways. then they arent balanced. balancing is part of what they are doing. and they are trying to move away from being pushed into the int tree. which is why weapons can be crafted under their primary stat. Int is mid game or better. I can play with that and probably will. if they do want Int as a viable stand alone tree as the others are better equipped to do, then they need to reevaluate it.

again, this is only based on the glimpses of what the tree is like based on his videos. you get exp boost for electrical kills. but only at level 3 of the perk. stuff like that. most are mid game or better. and we need some of that. but that doesnt make it a viable build on its own from the start as the others are.

now again. I dont mind Int being an auxillary tree. but if that is the case, then they just need to say so instead of the other way they are presenting it.

Ok Blake.

 

[Blake_]

Pure builds are useless anyway.
A pure agility build can run without getting tired and jump 3m high, a pure perception build can shoot with deadly precision and find the best loot, a pure strength build hits so hard that the zombies fly through the air and he is a human mole and a pure fortitude build is a walking tank with self-healing powers. But everyone of them would have to walk on foot for the entire game because they could not even build a bicycle. At least not without finding all the parts.

My point is: a pure INT can do absolutely nothing. Bad for close combat because of the time placing turrets and you can be easily overrunned. Bad for masses if you don't bottleneck them. Bad for hordes because you can be overrunned and the batton isn't enough. Bad overall for a lot of POIs because of the reasons above. Non flexible static firepower without even being the best dps build. Int needs to be doable as a standalone build, like most rpgs. Right now it is not. Sure, every pure build has its weaknesses, but also its strenghts. Int has only weaknesses and no edge against the other attributes.

Turrets are a liability. Turrets are at the same level as the explosives, but int does not have a firearm. #intsuxazz

 

[Zombie_Jam]

My point is: a pure INT can do absolutely nothing. Bad for close combat because of the time placing turrets and you can be easily overrunned. Bad for masses if you don't bottleneck them. Bad for hordes because you can be overrunned and the batton isn't enough. Bad overall for a lot of POIs because of the reasons above. Non flexible static firepower without even being the best dps build. Int needs to be doable as a standalone build, like most rpgs. Right now it is not. Sure, every pure build has its weaknesses, but also its strenghts. Int has only weaknesses and no edge against the other attributes.
Turrets are a liability. Turrets are at the same level as the explosives, but int does not have a firearm. #intsuxazz

I made the same points above and then saw you make them here.

You have a legitimate argument. But it's all a game of psychology here. You know that fair criticism = trolling right?

*sigh*

 

[Roland]

again, adding words. never said unplayable. that is how trolling starts. changing or trying to imply what isnt there.
they are stating EACH is playable as a pure class. listen to his videos. and if one class cant fare as well as another but in different ways. then they arent balanced. balancing is part of what they are doing. and they are trying to move away from being pushed into the int tree. which is why weapons can be crafted under their primary stat. Int is mid game or better. I can play with that and probably will. if they do want Int as a viable stand alone tree as the others are better equipped to do, then they need to reevaluate it.

again, this is only based on the glimpses of what the tree is like based on his videos. you get exp boost for electrical kills. but only at level 3 of the perk. stuff like that. most are mid game or better. and we need some of that. but that doesnt make it a viable build on its own from the start as the others are.

now again. I dont mind Int being an auxillary tree. but if that is the case, then they just need to say so instead of the other way they are presenting it.

Asymmetrical is not the same things as being unbalanced. The int. build has its own set of challenges (ie weaknesses compared to other builds) but it has strengths as well that make it fun to play. Some people won't find the fun of playing intelligence build and will want to keep it as an auxiliary build to another main build which is fine.

If they remove all the weaknesses to make intelligence strong in the same ways that the other builds are strong then you are going to have the same play experience no matter what you choose and that would be sad.

 

[wolfbain5]

Ok Blake.

now now, just because we are going by what you said is no reason to get nasty. we are going for clarification here. I even gave you many outs and let's sees

 

[meganoth]

My point is: a pure INT can do absolutely nothing. Bad for close combat because of the time placing turrets and you can be easily overrunned. Bad for masses if you don't bottleneck them. Bad for hordes because you can be overrunned and the batton isn't enough. Bad overall for a lot of POIs because of the reasons above. Non flexible static firepower without even being the best dps build. Int needs to be doable as a standalone build, like most rpgs. Right now it is not. Sure, every pure build has its weaknesses, but also its strenghts. Int has only weaknesses and no edge against the other attributes.
Turrets are a liability. Turrets are at the same level as the explosives, but int does not have a firearm. #intsuxazz

Again: Assuming I still have a hand free while 1-3 turrets are blasting the enemy I don't even see how an INT guy could suck at fighting. He can use any other weapon, put down traps or blocks, run around and evade zombies or do melee and ADDITIONALLY his turrets do continuous damage with the cheapest ammo available (on par with arrows).

All points of yours are fine as questions for clarification. Is "Right now it is not." a question too?

 

[wolfbain5]

Asymmetrical is not the same things as being unbalanced. The int. build has its own set of challenges (ie weaknesses compared to other builds) but it has strengths as well that make it fun to play. Some people won't find the fun of playing intelligence build and will want to keep it as an auxiliary build to another main build which is fine.
If they remove all the weaknesses to make intelligence strong in the same ways that the other builds are strong then you are going to have the same play experience no matter what you choose and that would be sad.

that is why I said auxiliary. it is good to get into mid game or further. from the play thorughs, it seems even MM's playstyles have gone that route.

from that I have seen, I will probably got agil/int myself with tiny picks from other stats

 

[SnowDog1942]

Keep it up you might be off the naughty list soon

What about me, I like naughty

 

[Zombie_Jam]

Hey, MadMole,

I have a question suggestion (quesgestion) regarding spears. Do you think it would be doable (since spears pierce and are retained in the enemy) that zombies and dogs could slow down after being skewered until the spear has been retrieved?

Thanks

 

[Blake_]

Again: Assuming I still have a hand free while 1-3 turrets are blasting the enemy I don't even see how an INT guy could suck at fighting. He can use any other weapon, put down traps or blocks, run around and evade zombies or do melee and ADDITIONALLY his turrets do continuous damage with the cheapest ammo available (on par with arrows).
All points of yours are fine as questions for clarification. Is "Right now it is not." a question too?

Edit: Pure build argument. You are talking mixed build argument.

Le'ts wait and see.

 

[Dimpy]

Oh here lets give you 3 spears because we're incompetent designers? The issue is its a horrible design. What happens when he lost the third spear?

Yeah, if an experienced player can throw a spear into a field 20m away or in a cluttered room and lose it forever, that's a problem that needs to be addressed directly. My idea was more a second layer of defense, geared towards noobs who might be careless with their spears, and to make players slightly less suicidal in trying to retrieve spears from dangerous situations.

From what I understand historically(Not particular knowledgeable), spears were considered a more disposable weapon then say, swords, and it might be cool to see that reflected in the mechanics of the game.