PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Dark_Corvid]

Looks very good. I think their games are geared for an amazing short (30 hours?) experience, but after you beat it I doubt there is any replay ability right away. I like the player/zombie interactive animations, that is something we have a team that can do now, but it might not really happen for 7 days, possibly a bit, that is something you design from the ground up not tack on the last home stretch.

Acknowledging that Dying Light's animations were planned from the onset, it's nice to know the interactive animations are on you and the other TFPs radar. I appreciate the amount of work that goes into such animations. The feedback payoff makes for awesomely engaging combat. For example, Doom's glory kills.

In 7 Days, besides building and looting, the other activity players do a ton of is killing zeds. With A18, building and looting (especially looting) is getting even more engaging. It would be great to see some interactive animations added (in future alphas) to whatever degree possible to similarly increase engagement of moment to moment combat.

I think the upcoming raging zombies is a step in that direction. The past addition of persistent arrows and dismemberment are also appreciated.

 

[Dark_Corvid]

The way I see it if your still playing by the time they spawn, we've already weeded out the whiners. It will take thick skin to make it to that game stage IMO.
We're going to address death with some changes. If you die on blood moon, the zombies will no longer GPS to you unless you engage them in combat. This will prevent death loop...

Awesome! A really welcome change.

 

[Dark_Corvid]

My biggest issue with the game is the non-horde zombies are boring and not a concern (have over 4k hours in the game).
How about a glass cannon type of zombie that can be thrown into the mix. Noisy, faster moving, half-human that goes down quick but god help you if he connects.

Kinda like ferals but higher damage but lower HP, make exploring the wilderness more tense.

That could be interesting.

I agree. Makes me think of the runner zombies drawn to noisy player locations in Dying Light. They aren't tough but do a lot more damage than standard sees.

Tangentially, I think gunshots, vehicles, and noise in general in non-POI instances could stand to generate a lot more heat. Possibly causing screamers and the above zombies to spawn with more frequency in response to "noisy" outside player activity.

 

[Zombie_Jam]

Dude, you don’t even know what values constitute average stats for each tier level. You’re going to find that average is plenty powerful enough to survive and do what you want to do by time you get to green and blue levels.
You have zero frame of reference for the stats of tools and weapons except for what you know of A17 and it has all been rebalanced and fundamentally changed. Higher quality does more damage without mods in A18 unlike A17 so it is completely different.

Madmole spoke directly to you and said “average stats for crafting”. So go ahead and tell me what exactly that means in terms of being able to play how you like. You can’t because you won’t know what the heck average stats are until you play the game— and I’m confident that you’ll see that all your worry was wasted energy.

Don’t get me wrong though— some adaptation for everyone will be required and some will likely refuse and probably put the game down just like every alpha update.

My point of reference is full intelligence build and the resultant mid level weapons once thats reached.

The stats are irrelevant, the point stands.

There should be a reason to spec into and max the intelligence build and if someone is maxed out and makes a weapon (inc. random stats) which is mid level and which also turns out to be far inferior to something that is just randomly looted out of a box - then it seems to me to make the whole intelligence build somewhat redundant.

I suppose I should add that I would expect someone investing not only heavy, but max; into a build which should by virtue of its name focus intensely on crafting and producing the best quality stuff - or stuff on par with the top tier loot, to be able to do so.

That whole focus just appears to be wasted, regardless of stats. And why do you keep insisting my opinion or frame of reference is any Alpha other than this one?

I have simply drawn conclusions, I would argue sensibly, based on what has been plainly stated.

1. The best items are found in loot.

2. The build which represents crafting the best stuff, intelligence, now produces, at best, mid grade equipment.

Is this difficult for you to understand? I get that a18 is different but I have made my point multiple times already that:

- Speccing into INT leaves you vulnerable and needing in the early game until you make enough points to be able to enjoy crafting the best stuff later game.

- Speccing into STR/DEF (or STEALTH) enables more looting and better combat ability early game and lack of top tier crafting late game.

Both situations are true unless you grind out the exp.

If you really want to make an argument against my point, something you've thusfar failed to do, then use this one that I will make for you:

Enabling Full INT build to craft top tier weapons means once enough players produce top tier goods the incentive for STR/DEF/STEALTH (and other) builds to go and raid POIs may be degraded or lost.

 

[Zombie_Jam]

That's an idea. We can just coat the outside of our walls in a layer or two of forest ground to minimize the explosion from the Demolisher. (madmole, if you're reading this, please move on; nothing to see here)

 

[Amanitasec]

@madmole

Love your last video. Congrats for staying alive! Although I must say, you choose hardcore tactic with opening and closing doors while reloading a gun. I think demolisher should do a bit more damage though. It was like 3 or 4 of them that explode in your base, next to the chem station, and chem station was still staying there. It should be gone imho, and your crates at least should get strong damage, or be gone as well (the closest one). I know you already lost gyro, but imho if we allow demolisher (or 2 of them) to explode inside our base, we should bare the consequense of it

 

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

There should be a reason to spec into and max the intelligence build and if someone is maxed out and makes a weapon (inc. random stats) which is mid level and which also turns out to be far inferior to something that is just randomly looted out of a box - then it seems to me to make the whole intelligence build somewhat redundant.
I suppose I should add that I would expect someone investing not only heavy, but max; into a build which should by virtue of its name focus intensely on crafting and producing the best quality stuff - or stuff on par with the top tier loot, to be able to do so.

Hey, there. This isn't my argument, but I think you're badly misunderstanding what madmole said and this means that you and Roland aren't talking about the same thing.

There are three different things when it comes to loot. I'm going to make sure my terminology is clear, but I can't guarantee that others will be similarly clear...

Most weapon types come in three Tiers. These Tiers are physically different items; for example wooden club/iron club/baseball bat or primitive bow/compound bow/crossbow.

Within each Tier, items of the same type have six possible Qualities. These are numbered 1-6, and are represented by different colours.

Within each Quality, items have a randomised Rating for statistics such as armour or damage. For each particular item and Quality this Rating will have a maximum and minimum and will be (normally?) distributed around an average Rating for the Tier and Quality of item. It's possible that a very high Rating item of one Quality will actually be better than a very low Rating item of the next higher Quality, but this will be an uncommon occurrence.

With that terminology clarified...

I think the issue is that what I understand madmole to be saying (and I think this is Roland's understanding too) is that when you make your own items rather than finding them, the items you make will have and average Rating for their Tier and Quality rather than a randomised one. This is to prevent spam-crafting until you get an item of the highest possible Rating. However, as you buy more perks the Tier and Quality of item you can make will increase until you can make top-Quality items of the highest Tier. It's just that the Rating of each of those items will be average for its Quality and Tier.

From your posts, you seem to think that madmole was saying that when you make your own items rather than finding them, the items you make will always be of an average Quality, and therefore they will be vastly inferior to looted items because looted items can be above average Quality.

Do you see the difference?

I think your worries about only being able to make "mid level" or "mid grade" equipment that is "far inferior" to what you'll be finding are based on this misunderstanding. From what I understand, you will be able to make top-Tier, top-Quality items that have an average Rating for that Tier/Quality. Sure, you'll be able to find slightly better items in loot (top-Tier, top-Quality, and above-average-Rating) sometimes - that's the incentive to actually keep looting for that "perfect" item. But the difference between the best item you can make and the best item you can find will be far smaller than you seem to think it will; and the best items you can make will be superior to the vast majority of items you find when looting.

 

[crazywildfire]

snip

Nice and well said. I don't believe anything you said isn't on par from my understanding and think you nailed it pretty good. Also don't forget you can find books to read as well so you don't have to spend points.

 

[Zombie_Jam]

Trimmed.

Perhaps MadMole could clarify what you said

Because if it is possible with a full INT build to craft items which are on par with top quality loot then my fears will disappear - and investing into INT will then become viable.

You put your points very well, and I get you loud and clear.

Maybe my wording is messy, but I understand the tiers.

I just meant, for example, a looted baseball bat vs player crafted baseball bat. Same quality grade - my understanding from MadMole is that the player made bat will always be inferior to its hypothetical looted equal.

I really hope your interpretation of what the devs have implemented, however, is indeed the case.

Thank you for the input by the way, much appreciated. It's just a friendly discussion anyways

 

[ieuri]

My point of reference is full intelligence build and the resultant mid level weapons once thats reached.
The stats are irrelevant, the point stands.

There should be a reason to spec into and max the intelligence build and if someone is maxed out and makes a weapon (inc. random stats) which is mid level and which also turns out to be far inferior to something that is just randomly looted out of a box - then it seems to me to make the whole intelligence build somewhat redundant.

I suppose I should add that I would expect someone investing not only heavy, but max; into a build which should by virtue of its name focus intensely on crafting and producing the best quality stuff - or stuff on par with the top tier loot, to be able to do so.

That whole focus just appears to be wasted, regardless of stats. And why do you keep insisting my opinion or frame of reference is any Alpha other than this one?

I have simply drawn conclusions, I would argue sensibly, based on what has been plainly stated.

1. The best items are found in loot.

2. The build which represents crafting the best stuff, intelligence, now produces, at best, mid grade equipment.

Is this difficult for you to understand? I get that a18 is different but I have made my point multiple times already that:

- Speccing into INT leaves you vulnerable and needing in the early game until you make enough points to be able to enjoy crafting the best stuff later game.

- Speccing into STR/DEF (or STEALTH) enables more looting and better combat ability early game and lack of top tier crafting late game.

Both situations are true unless you grind out the exp.

If you really want to make an argument against my point, something you've thusfar failed to do, then use this one that I will make for you:

Enabling Full INT build to craft top tier weapons means once enough players produce top tier goods the incentive for STR/DEF/STEALTH (and other) builds to go and raid POIs may be degraded or lost.

If I remember, madmole one talked about relooking at the perks for INT. Why not add one that gives +X / rank to increase the random stats of a crafted item. This would really boster people wanting the INT tree and would play really well with dual specs.

 

[ZombieSurvivor]

*Lurking mode disabled* hmmm...no A18 drop yet a..... *Lurking mode enabled*

 

[Aldranon]

Allegedly the earliest is the 13th.

 

[Trankitas]

*Lurking mode disabled* hmmm...no A18 drop yet a..... *Lurking mode enabled*

Same, I've said everything I wanted to say, now I'm lurking and waiting for the big boom.

 

[Genosis]

So, catching up on the forums in the morning and I'd like to jump into the POI topic, and how The Fun Pimp's goal is a unique POI for the entire map.

To aid that goal, I wonder if there would there be any interest to look at player-made POI's?

It may add some overhead time if the POI team was directly involved in sorting through what would be piles of POI's that have varying levels of effort, so how about a peer-review prior to dev team involvement? Set up a forum thread with a poll with registered builds that people can +1 on, and the team can pick through the ones that surface to the top, and remove adopted ones from the list. Then, they can go through the POI and do any required re-balancing.

It would certainly take less time than building the POI themselves, and could add some community involvement and showcase some really cool things people have built.

Anyhoo, just spitballing ideas, I know a lot of folks would be hyped to see the official team check out their builds. Regardless, I am looking forward to seeing all the new POI's A18 has to offer.

- - - Updated - - -

On the topic of POI's for anyone on the dev team; any word on the south-west city in Navezgane being completed for A18.X, or is that an A19 goal?

 

[quilmeshou]

i always thought about this game having a biome or POI which features something like Metro 2033... i mean subways. maybe is limited to certain cities or kinda. knowing that you can have a full horde waiting for you down there and be caught off guard in a dark place... also adding a secret boss or something like that.

 

[Genosis]

i always thought about this game having a biome or POI which features something like Metro 2033... i mean subways. maybe is limited to certain cities or kinda. knowing that you can have a full horde waiting for you down there and be caught off guard in a dark place... also adding a secret boss or something like that.

Subway would make a killer POI. Would need some extra shapes to pull it off more convincingly, I'd think. We had a community member of ours do a "Fallout" inspired subway which is available on NexusMods along with all our other builds. Here is a screen:



Does a pretty nice job I thought, with the shape pallete available. MOAR shapes! Here's hoping the creative/prefab menu gets an insurgence in A18.

 

[quilmeshou]

i think that mines in game are kinda bugged. i tried to kill some zeds using them but they didnt do anything, at least at first view, cause when one stepped on a mine, didnt even blow up or lose limbs, knowing the power of those.

- - - Updated - - -

i cant access to it

Nevermind, i can see it. its pretty cool.

 

[schaki]

i always thought about this game having a biome or POI which features something like Metro 2033... i mean subways. maybe is limited to certain cities or kinda. knowing that you can have a full horde waiting for you down there and be caught off guard in a dark place... also adding a secret boss or something like that.

there actually is something like that made already - just not by TFP - its included in Ravenhearst.. not really huge, but its an underground subwaystation with a few blocks left and right with railroads

 

[meganoth]

So, all they need to add then, is death penalty from suicide is x10 and Viola!

Easy to circumvent on open servers, players will just use a throwaway character to deliver the vest and not care about the death penalty

2) What incentive will there be to re-engage the BM horde? Zombie XP probably won't be enough. Maybe introduce unique loot drops from blood moon spawns (i.e. collection quest item, faction rep. gain, higher chance of higher quality items, etc.). Otherwise, many players may choose to just sit it out and because there is more risk then reward.

The player already died (in a sense failed), why does it need an incentive to reengage? Often (with a breached horde base) reengagement is futil anyway and the player needs time to prepare, repair and resupply.

Oh you're mistaken; I'm not arguing that the old poi's were better, I'm arguing that their design is better to have as a majority. I don't need "Good loot" in every poi, so I'm happy to go into a normal house that has some standard day 1 junk (clothes, few cans of food, maybe a cooking pot) and call it a day.

Sorry, I see now you meant old style houses, not just the old houses of A15 that were updated or removed. Part of my last reply is irrelevant then. Still, simple houses with just some junk will be uninteresting for most players after 2 weeks into the game. And I think we get the best of both worlds if the designers use uncluttered rooms a bit more often (actually ground floor of many residential houses already are relatively uncluttered) and there are occasionally alternative paths available

 

[Laz Man]

My point of reference is full intelligence build and the resultant mid level weapons once thats reached.
The stats are irrelevant, the point stands.

There should be a reason to spec into and max the intelligence build and if someone is maxed out and makes a weapon (inc. random stats) which is mid level and which also turns out to be far inferior to something that is just randomly looted out of a box - then it seems to me to make the whole intelligence build somewhat redundant.

I suppose I should add that I would expect someone investing not only heavy, but max; into a build which should by virtue of its name focus intensely on crafting and producing the best quality stuff - or stuff on par with the top tier loot, to be able to do so.

That whole focus just appears to be wasted, regardless of stats. And why do you keep insisting my opinion or frame of reference is any Alpha other than this one?

I have simply drawn conclusions, I would argue sensibly, based on what has been plainly stated.

1. The best items are found in loot.

2. The build which represents crafting the best stuff, intelligence, now produces, at best, mid grade equipment.

Is this difficult for you to understand? I get that a18 is different but I have made my point multiple times already that:

- Speccing into INT leaves you vulnerable and needing in the early game until you make enough points to be able to enjoy crafting the best stuff later game.

- Speccing into STR/DEF (or STEALTH) enables more looting and better combat ability early game and lack of top tier crafting late game.

Both situations are true unless you grind out the exp.

If you really want to make an argument against my point, something you've thusfar failed to do, then use this one that I will make for you:

Enabling Full INT build to craft top tier weapons means once enough players produce top tier goods the incentive for STR/DEF/STEALTH (and other) builds to go and raid POIs may be degraded or lost.

Lol, are you having a debate with yourself? As you stated, if full INT builds could craft the best wpns/armor/items then every other builds would be potentially second rate. What is should happen is each build should have skills/crafted items/abilities that are unique to them to keep them mostly balanced.