PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

  • A18 Stable is Out!

    Votes: 2 66.7%
  • <img alt=":)" data-src="" src="___base_url___/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

    Votes: 1 33.3%

  • Total voters
    3
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Hi Joel, I remember long time ago a concept art you made about a flame-thrower turret.Is it still in the plans?

It would be cool to have some roaster near the base entrance... it wouldn't be OP because my guess is it would burn fuel like there was no future! (pun intended) :smile-new:
That would be great. It's already available via creative menu. You can use regular gas cans to fill it and a generator for energy. However, as soon as you start the trap you see a flame and a console error.^^ Flame is cool, the error not so much. I guess it just needs some bugfixes, a collision box and a recipe for survival mode.

Edit:

Off topic - I am glad that the batman avatar nonsense seems to be over (owlman is much cooler anyway). Let the new mug avatar era begin! ^^

 
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As a web designer by trade, I'm always making sure that my arrogance of what I think works best doesn't get in the way of user friendliness. Nobody wants to (or should need to) to read help files. Nobody had to read help files to figure out what to do in previous alphas because the whole system was logical. Now it's not, and that is why the same questions keep popping up.
The dude was asking for help and I told him where to find his help but you think he doesn't want or shouldn't want to read the help?

Help is help. It's in the game and it's pretty concise and it's available right now and it has little bits of Gazz personality to it which I find hilarious in some of the journal entries.

The current system is perfectly logical. If you read the explanation it is clear and you can immediately understand how the interaction of the bars represents stamina, hunger, thirst, superficial damage, and more permanent damage. It IS more complex than it was in previous alphas but once you understand how it works it is incredibly intuitive and quite ingenious. In my opinion, it would be a tragedy to just return to simplistic bars. To me, it is worth a bit of reading if you can't figure it out on your own especially when the reading is short and to the point and exists in the game itself.

I get that you don't personally like the system but just because you don't like it doesn't make it illogical. It is a very good representation of how hunger affects stamina and hydration affects recovery and also for having a dynamic variable maximum of energy and health depending on what has happened to you, how you are exposed to the elements, and what types of first aid measures you've taken.

I guess if we were surfing a web page instead of using a graphical representation of a complex game status we would want to dumb it down for maximum user friendliness. Or we can have something more complex that a player can do some light in-game reading about if they feel they are a bit lost on how it works so we can actually feel like we are playing a game instead of just navigating through web links.

Most games in the world have instructions that can be read. It isn't a foreign concept to the gaming world though it might be to the web design world.

Rick and I agree that the ISS is too complicated. That other guy did it, not to say he was bad, he's a great designer but could make a turd sound fun in a meeting. Unfortunately now is not the time to gut ISS. A19 we'll probably do a straight forward simple health and stamina system. A lot of guys try to get tricky and think its cool but at the end of the day complicated designs always fail. If people can't understand it, its just not good for the game.
Boo! It's perfectly understandable and there are perfectly understandable instructions. We are playing a game. There can be some slightly complex rules in a game.....a game for adults no less.

Once you grok the system it IS simple and elegant for representing all that it does. If you needed to change anything I would say add a small bar on the bottom of the stamina that represents hunger and shows the full range all the way to the maximum overfill so people can visually see their hunger going down even when the stamina max is at the top.

And how can you grok the system? Less than 2 minutes reading a short description provided in the game.

Imagine...reading some rules about a game you are playing. Shocker!

Save yourself some work... :)

 
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So they shoot like Kage. Got it, why didn't you guys just say so? I'm on it :D
I am one who does not use them either because they are too costly. I don’t know if it’s because they miss, or if they rarely headshot.

I would accept this as just a weak turret that contributes to lowering zombie hp if I could do things like adjust the fire rate and/or choose from a priority set such as closest zombie, furthest zombie, weakest zombie, strongest zombie etc

 
If you read the explanation it is clear and you can immediately understand...
...once you understand how it works it is incredibly intuitive and quite ingenious.

So it's incredibly intuitive, yeah?

Intuitive (from merriam-webster and dictionary.com):

- "easy to understand or operate without explicit instruction"

- "known or perceived by intuition : directly apprehended"

I would say no. It's not intuitive though it represents the ingame mechanic correctly. If you have to explain your status bars you're doing something wrong. Btw. your life would be easier if you managed to get rid of that odd minimal UI obsession.

 
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The dude was asking for help and I told him where to find his help but you think he doesn't want or shouldn't want to read the help?Help is help. It's in the game and it's pretty concise and it's available right now and it has little bits of Gazz personality to it which I find hilarious in some of the journal entries.

The current system is perfectly logical. If you read the explanation it is clear and you can immediately understand how the interaction of the bars represents stamina, hunger, thirst, superficial damage, and more permanent damage. It IS more complex than it was in previous alphas but once you understand how it works it is incredibly intuitive and quite ingenious. In my opinion, it would be a tragedy to just return to simplistic bars. To me, it is worth a bit of reading if you can't figure it out on your own especially when the reading is short and to the point and exists in the game itself.

I get that you don't personally like the system but just because you don't like it doesn't make it illogical. It is a very good representation of how hunger affects stamina and hydration affects recovery and also for having a dynamic variable maximum of energy and health depending on what has happened to you, how you are exposed to the elements, and what types of first aid measures you've taken.

I guess if we were surfing a web page instead of using a graphical representation of a complex game status we would want to dumb it down for maximum user friendliness. Or we can have something more complex that a player can do some light in-game reading about if they feel they are a bit lost on how it works so we can actually feel like we are playing a game instead of just navigating through web links.

Most games in the world have instructions that can be read. It isn't a foreign concept to the gaming world though it might be to the web design world.

Boo! It's perfectly understandable and there are perfectly understandable instructions. We are playing a game. There can be some slightly complex rules in a game.....a game for adults no less.

Once you grok the system it IS simple and elegant for representing all that it does. If you needed to change anything I would say add a small bar on the bottom of the stamina that represents hunger and shows the full range all the way to the maximum overfill so people can visually see their hunger going down even when the stamina max is at the top.

And how can you grok the system? Less than 2 minutes reading a short description provided in the game.

Imagine...reading some rules about a game you are playing. Shocker!

Save yourself some work... :)
I disagree entirely.

I actually like the new system but a good game design does not require in depth reading to get the basics of game play. If I have to look up the journal entry for the simple things they are not intuitive and provide more frustration then they merit. That does not mean in any way that they need to be simplified though. IMHO, what is needed is just some simple streamlining in the UI as well as in the in game descriptions of items.

I think most questions will be answered with the item descriptions when they are finalized to be honest.

 
So they shoot like Kage. Got it, why didn't you guys just say so? I'm on it :D
Pretty much. :p The "problem" with auto turrets is, yes, they can kill a zombie in two hits, or they will dump an entire clip into a singular zombie, and even then, it might still be alive. The ammo consumption just isn't worth it imo. ;)

 
Pretty much. :p The "problem" with auto turrets is, yes, they can kill a zombie in two hits, or they will dump an entire clip into a singular zombie, and even then, it might still be alive. The ammo consumption just isn't worth it imo. ;)
I just use auto turrets for the roof of my base to kill wandering screamers or hordes. Also works as my alarm too.

 
Just gives you a bigger e-peen.
-A
Why, thank you for the compliment.

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@Roland

...make the game complicated all you want... A UI is supposed to represent information your character feels. If it has to be explained, it's not good. I'm glad tfp agrees.

 
So it's incredibly intuitive, yeah?
Intuitive (from merriam-webster and dictionary.com):

- "easy to understand or operate without explicit instruction"

- "known or perceived by intuition : directly apprehended"

I would say no. It's not intuitive though it represents the ingame mechanic correctly. If you have to explain your status bars you're doing something wrong. Btw. your life would be easier if you managed to get rid of that odd minimal UI obsession.
You are entirely correct that I misused the word “intuitive”. The feeling that I meant to convey was that once you understand how it works it’s very fitting for what it represents and I don’t ever have to stop to try to figure out what it’s telling me. I know instantly and naturally what my status is.

But I do admit that the system is complex enough that it requires an explicit explanation of how it works so...not intuitive. But the explanation needed is brief and readily available and once it is understood it works very well so in my mind...worth it.

I’m against gutting it and replacing it with multiple basic status bars just because those ARE intuitive. Being able to be understood by the lowest denominator isn’t always the best option.

I guess it’s my board game background. There isn’t much about Twilight Imperium that can be figured out without reading the rules but it is an amazing experience if you do.

I hope the current system remains even if it has to be explained.

 
Whoa, deja vu. I'm not going to claim the current food/health/stamina/hunger system is perfect(I am a big fan of it), but I think it is wrong to restrict design to systems that instantly clear to all players, as if such a thing exists. Seriously, what's the problem with short journal entries? You guys are starting to make me feel like a codger thinking, 'why can't these damn kids just read a bit?'

The things that might seem 'intuitive' could also just be familiar and learned, not a priori. How are you supposed to make something cool and new? not just a copy of every other game system simply because people will get it without complaining. The Internet is always there for players to ask others simple questions if needed. I know I've seen some ridiculous ♥♥♥♥ asked about other games and thinking, "how did they not understand that?"

 
Why, thank you for the compliment.
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@Roland

...make the game complicated all you want... A UI is supposed to represent information your character feels. If it has to be explained, it's not good. I'm glad tfp agrees.
Disagree. If it has to be explained it can still be good. In fact it can be great. It might not be the best for mass market non-readers out there but the system itself can be amazing.

This system can certainly be improved and I’m all for it. But casting it aside because it needs a tutorial? Create a tutorial and keep the system.

I guess this proves anyone can be for dumbing stuff down. Funny thing is if they cut this system and dumb it down we will be going back to a minimum of four bars which they won’t even be able to claim is streamlining in that case. Just simply dumbing it down for those who can’t be bothered to learn it and want it to be so simplified as to be able to pick it up and play immediately.

Now excuse me while I go play some intuitive games on my iPhone...

 
WEEEE - WOOO - WEEEE - WOOOO!

HYPEWAVE INCOMING!!! GET TO YOUR NEAREST SAFETY SHELTER!

Two smileys!!!

Everyone get in my shelter or get hit with the hypewave!!!

 
The biggest problem with the health/stamina system is the lack of contrast between the gray and black bits. As someone mentioned several pages ago, a border around the bar may go a far way to making it more visually obvious what is going on. It’s not the end of the world if someone looks up an entry on healing to see how to fully heal your character provided that the UI makes it evident to them that they have lost max health.

 
Disagree. If it has to be explained it can still be good. In fact it can be great. It might not be the best for mass market non-readers out there but the system itself can be amazing.
This system can certainly be improved and I’m all for it. But casting it aside because it needs a tutorial? Create a tutorial and keep the system.

I guess this proves anyone can be for dumbing stuff down. Funny thing is if they cut this system and dumb it down we will be going back to a minimum of four bars which they won’t even be able to claim is streamlining in that case. Just simply dumbing it down for those who can’t be bothered to learn it and want it to be so simplified as to be able to pick it up and play immediately.

Now excuse me while I go play some intuitive games on my iPhone...
For me it comes down to I shouldn't have to keep asking what thing I need to do to heal, or wonder why my health is low, or wonder why I have a thirsty icon when my blue is full... I know I'm kinda dumb though. :)

 
one of the best games ive played was magic the gathering (the only mp game I actually like lol)

yes the card version - when it first came out

there was very little intuitive about the game, and hours were spent scrutinising the rule book to make sure you weren't being cheated. (or fairly beaten if you could twist the rules ha ha)

I suppose my point is a little complexity is not a bad thing. don't do everything to suit the lazy or short of attention. I agree with what Roland says, once understood, it makes total sense.

rtfm people

 
It does heal over time, or at least with some natural healing. If we change it it might be just dumb it down like it used to be but with no wellness. Its kind of integrated fairly heavily so changing it isn't a light decision and won't happen right now.
I'm with you, MM. Don't change it. Just make it a bit clearer in the help pages and maybe a visual explanation of the HUD and workbenches (because they're also confusing).

 
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