PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[SnowDog1942]

With the shape selector, what is the fate of the table saw? Id miss having that one extra cool thing in my base. Did it get dumped?

 

[hotpoon]

Are you still arguing from a 17.2 perspective or have you tried 17.4 yet? There were a lot of adjustments to randomize behavior and make it so that zombies would abandon long pathways.
You’re right that I made the statement at 17e that the perfect knowledge AI without variations were just a first pass and that zombies would be dumbed down and bandits would be the smarter enemies. Since that time zombies have been dumbed down and variations of behavior have been coded in.

It does sound to me as well that for the sake of challenge and thrills there will always be some zombies that will take a long path so that you get them coming at you from everywhere— even across a plank connected to an adjacent building. Personally I love that and have fun trying to block all access points to where I am. I think that 17.4 is close to the right amount of variation

My personal experience ends in 17.2 when I stopped playing, and I swore I wouldn't return to the game until something is done about the AI, so I've been keeping an eye on the forums to see if anything has been changed, and asking questions. Looks like you and Madmole think it has improved, while others are still complaining.

I was 100% happy with their stupidity in previous alphas. I'm sure TFP aren't going back to that for whatever reason, but I sure hope they swing more in that direction.

 

[meganoth]

You know this will never work. All traders would get killed off and a big portion of the game would be broken just so a few jerks can try to be bandits..

There are the open (PvP and PvE) servers where this won't work, but there is a large group of players in SP and co-op on private servers too. And for those such an option would be a very positive thing.

We know that because we already played game mods that tried to do this, sadly until now only working imperfectly.

 

[Lonestarcanuck]

And everyone doing quests for that trader gets a "Mission failed" and rage quits. Its just a bad idea to let people raid/kill traders when we could be doing cool stuff like bandits, infiltration quests, blow up the building quests, etc.

LOL Well you did not share all the logic like "Quest failure for everyone"! that changes the mission to protect the Trader now

So can I build a quest that one trader gives but must be turned into another specific trader?

 

[madmole]

When is this planned for? A19?

Not yet, we'll decide the 19 roadmap when 18 is done. The new overhead garage door is this way. It doesn't have any downgrade models though, but 21k hitpoints.

Doors are now upgraded with doors too, because players don't need free vault mech parts and springs and stuff. So the upgrade material is a vault door.

 

[Cazmyr]

Not yet, we'll decide the 19 roadmap when 18 is done. The new overhead garage door is this way. It doesn't have any downgrade models though, but 21k hitpoints.
Doors are now upgraded with doors too, because players don't need free vault mech parts and springs and stuff. So the upgrade material is a vault door.

That is an interesting idea. So, when you want to upgrade your door from wood to iron you make an iron door in your inventory and then right click the wooden door and it uses the made iron door as material?

 

[madmole]

I know this is an "agree to disagree" situation so at this point it's just discussion, but I don't use traders, like, at all, so I don't see it this way. If a18 on up requires the use of traders then I'd consider it a failing.
They should be a bonus not a requirement, so if ♥♥♥♥heads want to go around killing them, then it should be the non ♥♥♥♥heads responsibility to prevent them. That could be fun.

Besides, if the trader's relatives came to replace them with an even meaner demeanor and more defenses, you could still have your traders.

Blah blah blah you didn't read the key thing I said: A lot of work for the same end result. If traders are killable and then get replaced, we might as well leave the protection and do real stuff, like work on bandits. Why work on a simulation when we're working on a game? If killing the trader respawns another what is the purpose? The net result is the same, without making players angry their quest failed because a 9 year old had to kill the trader.

Traders aren't needed to play the game (yet), but about 99% of players love them and our targeted audience (Fallout meets minecraft meets the walking dead) would expect traders in that game.

None of this says they will be invincible forever. I'm just saying right now with bandits not finished there isn't one compelling reason to work on this.

 

[madmole]

With the shape selector, what is the fate of the table saw? Id miss having that one extra cool thing in my base. Did it get dumped?

No but its borderline useless. Its still there to craft odd deco things where the recipe doesn't fit the furniture helpers recipe. We need a whole alpha to sort it out, so its still on the possible cut list.

 

[madmole]

There are the open (PvP and PvE) servers where this won't work, but there is a large group of players in SP and co-op on private servers too. And for those such an option would be a very positive thing.
We know that because we already played game mods that tried to do this, sadly until now only working imperfectly.

We try not to do any one off designs that only work in one mode. SP and online mode should be identical except for other human survivors running around.

 

[SnowDog1942]

Not yet, we'll decide the 19 roadmap when 18 is done. The new overhead garage door is this way. It doesn't have any downgrade models though, but 21k hitpoints.
Doors are now upgraded with doors too, because players don't need free vault mech parts and springs and stuff. So the upgrade material is a vault door.

Just want to say A18 is shaping up to be the A17 i was dreaming about before A17 existed, and much more. A18 might just be a masterpiece, and Im impressed that there even will be an A19 with more improvements.

You guys should have undoubedly won the "labor of love" steam award. Thanks for the game.

Now back to my normal perverted forum posting.

Bewbs

 

[madmole]

That is an interesting idea. So, when you want to upgrade your door from wood to iron you make an iron door in your inventory and then right click the wooden door and it uses the made iron door as material?

Iron no, it uses iron, because iron doors have no special materials in them. Vault doors though have springs, mech parts and steel so you upgrade with that door. We didn't want to complicate early game door crafting, so you can upgrade with basic mats, but if you want to go vault tech, you gotta craft vault tech.

 

[Cazmyr]

Iron no, it uses iron, because iron doors have no special materials in them. Vault doors though have springs, mech parts and steel so you upgrade with that door. We didn't want to complicate early game door crafting, so you can upgrade with basic mats, but if you want to go vault tech, you gotta craft vault tech.

Awesome. Sounds like a nice balance.

 

[madmole]

Just want to say A18 is shaping up to be the A17 i was dreaming about before A17 existed, and much more. A18 might just be masterpiece, and Im impressed that there even will be an A19 with more improvements.
You should should have undoubedly won the "labor of love" steam award. Thanks for the game.

Now back to my normal perverted forum posting.

Thanks. Me being back in the testing trenches has been really helpful, you need to log 100's of hours to know what the thing needs to be balanced. We're working close with the testing team sharing notes and wrote tools for balancing. Its really come a long ways from 17, the addiction factor is strong. I sometimes think its too easy, but when you play 5-8 hours a day, that is expected. I know a lot of people will get rekt, its about time for me to turn up the difficulty I think. BUT, some tier 5's and horde nights have been a close call. It seriously depends on your preparation efforts. If you prepare to minimize risk you live, easily. If you think "I can wing it" the sting of death is there to remind you lol.

 

[Roland]

My personal experience ends in 17.2 when I stopped playing, and I swore I wouldn't return to the game until something is done about the AI, so I've been keeping an eye on the forums to see if anything has been changed, and asking questions. Looks like you and Madmole think it has improved, while others are still complaining.
I was 100% happy with their stupidity in previous alphas. I'm sure TFP aren't going back to that for whatever reason, but I sure hope they swing more in that direction.

It really helps when people having a conversation are speaking about the same things. I don't mean to pressure you into breaking your "vow of abstinence" but if you want to sound like you know what you are talking about from experience you really should play a few hours of 17.4 to experience the AI for yourself and then speak about current issues and not issues from two iterations past.

 

[Guppycur]

Blah blah blah you didn't read the key thing I said: A lot of work for the same end result. If traders are killable and then get replaced, we might as well leave the protection and do real stuff, like work on bandits. Why work on a simulation when we're working on a game? If killing the trader respawns another what is the purpose? The net result is the same, without making players angry their quest failed because a 9 year old had to kill the trader.
Traders aren't needed to play the game (yet), but about 99% of players love them and our targeted audience (Fallout meets minecraft meets the walking dead) would expect traders in that game.

None of this says they will be invincible forever. I'm just saying right now with bandits not finished there isn't one compelling reason to work on this.

Naw I read you, but now you're changing the conversation to bandits...

I'm a "why not both?" kind of guy. If one thing can be done well then two shouldn't be an issue.

The net gain isn't "another trader respawns", it's "a tougher, higher prices trader who hates and instantly attacks the guy who killed his brother" moves in.

...so those 99% you claim love traders, are not going to kill them and will defend them.

Besides, those types of asshats certainly wouldn't be the norm, but they would be fun AND it would obviously be the type of server that wants it, because they would allow it.

XML value, trader protection = false. ...the rest of the stuff (tougher relative, reputation system, trader defenses) aren't even necessary, they'd just make it cooler.

 

[Gamida]

And everyone doing quests for that trader gets a "Mission failed" and rage quits. Its just a bad idea to let people raid/kill traders when we could be doing cool stuff like bandits, infiltration quests, blow up the building quests, etc.

Maybe someone can mod the game for them and make it a sort of "capture the flag" deal. Instead it's a kill the other guys trader. Both teams have a trader they have to protect and at same time they have to kill the other teams trader.

 

[madmole]

One does not simply get up and play 7 Days, there are 4 new MF bugs in my queue, was looking forward to chilling and testing all day today lol.

 

[n2n1]

///Traders aren't needed to play the game (yet), but about 99% of players love them and our targeted audience (Fallout meets minecraft meets the walking dead) would expect traders in that game.

/////

...really, this is your personal point of view?!

looks like i missed something about you...

I thought you were "proud" of traders, and this is your "fu*ng awesome feature" of the game.

I'm from 1% of those players who believe that traders generally contraindicated in this game ....or, maybe, i'm just 1 person.

//// There are "dumb" zombies that can path in a straight line now and.......///

DAS IST FANTASTISCH!!!.

I was waiting for this super AI so i could use it everywhere in place of the dumb one!

Now zombies will not jump out the window and will not dig the stairs when i appear in the room instead of just attack me!!!

I think it will be a revolution! Remember like the AI was giving me a hard time in the early Alphas

Thanks!!!

 

[madmole]

Naw I read you, but now you're changing the conversation to bandits...
I'm a "why not both?" kind of guy. If one thing can be done well then two shouldn't be an issue.

The net gain isn't "another trader respawns", it's "a tougher, higher prices trader who hates and instantly attacks the guy who killed his brother" moves in.

...so those 99% you claim love traders, are not going to kill them and will defend them.

Besides, those types of asshats certainly wouldn't be the norm, but they would be fun AND it would obviously be the type of server that wants it, because they would allow it.

XML value, trader protection = false. ...the rest of the stuff (tougher relative, reputation system, trader defenses) aren't even necessary, they'd just make it cooler.

Its moving papers around on the desk and calling that an accomplishment. If you kill the trader, and another one respawns, why bother? For a simulation? There are 50 supportive tickets from this task you don't see because you aren't a game designer. This could set us back 6 months. Just to humor you I'll post a few:

*Removing land claim allows players to stay at traders on horde night

*Having a destroyable trader fort means players will box him in or land claim him themselves, destroy the stairs, dig a hole under him so he's at bedrock then pour concrete on his head.

*Giving trader defense systems adds more cpu to trader areas, auto turrets, traps, etc all add expense. He might need henchmen, so even more expense and slower FPS.

*If he respawns how does he reach the trader area if its destroyed or new base built there?

*Trader dies and quests are broken, assigning quests to a new ref has to be done.

*Trader kills player, they want to get their stuff back and are in a death loop because auto fire guys is on.

*Someone accidentally fires a gun, they are marked for death

I could go on and make 50-100 foreseeable issues and then we'd get 100's of bugs, all for a pointless simulation here because at the end of the day there is still a trader standing there selling stuff and giving out quests after all that work.

NO thanks, we'll stick to making games not simulations and random ideas that don't really add any value and take 1000's of man hours to pull off and get shippable. BTW, this requires good bandits anyway or "human combat AI", so it would have to wait until then for sure, but I can say we're never going to do it with 99% certainty. We're still a pretty small company so we have to pick our battles very carefully, and we like features that actually add value. This one is a ton of work for very little return other than immersion.

 

[Cazmyr]

The chicken 'forge' idea gave me another idea. I know this is may be 'too much' and therefore not worth it, but here it is:

For the chicken forge you have you place the block and it (maybe) takes up a 4x4 area and has a little chicken coop and a low fence. When you put your chickens into it, they spawn in the fenced area with very basic animations and 0 ai. Then you deposit food for the chickens and get back eggs and feathers.

What if you did a similar things with cows? Only instead of producing feathers and eggs it would produce hide and meat?

Just some thoughts. Rough drafting out loud really. Have a great day everyone.