PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[The Gronk]

Not exactly a fair analogy now, is it? A blood moon is relevant to the game. It attacks you, damages your base, is actively your enemy, rewards you, etc. Water is... water. Sure, add boats, now make water be a 20% of the map, and then... what? You got water and you got a boat. Nothing more. They'd have to invest a lot just to add semi-decent water content. Not worth it, in my opinion. 7dtd is not a game geared for water biomes.

What you have is a hazard to navigation which, by extension, is a hazard to survival.

You also have a reason to create an infrastructure so that people and vehicles can cross the water safely. Many moons ago when the biomes were flat and each separated by a small river, A10-ish I think, I built quite a few small bridges to make it easier to cross into neighboring biomes.

There's a reason that many old cities are twinned with another, entirely different, city on opposite banks of the same river. Water is not easy to cross without a boat or a bridge.

 

[Xeen]

Pressing O or P takes exactly the same amount of energy and time. How is that a "pain in the ass"? Having trouble remembering 2 diff keys (you can set yourself)?
Cheers

If you don't get it you won't get it so there is no point in discussing it with you.

 

[Kage848]

Is your opinion based on something? Have you conducted a poll? Made a survey? Link? Or is it solely based on your personal bias?


This will hopefully breath some life into combat. But much more could be done to make zombies more organic. Small random default speed deviations, random stumbling, random getting up time, random animations using the bite animation as well, with a slightly different hitbox etc.

No hard data. My own personal bias and anecdotal evidence. Pretty sure I said this in my comment.

 

[Kage848]

I do know that not everybody enjoys higher risk/challenge. And that is okay.I wasn't arguing for more challenge... well... not primarily.

I like it because it mixes up the melee combat. RN it is just "walk back and play whacka(mad)mole" even if you get hit a lot it is still one dimensional. With you beeing slower and them randomly beeing able to run, this should mix up this monotone combat.

Maybe the charging bull perk will finally be usefull, since you do more damage, therefor having a higher chance to kill/stun and not proccing the rage.

I see no real downside to this change. Since they are not undead zombies, but human zombies, its not a lorebreaker and if you dislike it, there is 6 difficulties to chose (and it will probably be an optional feature like the BM horde).

What would your argument against this be, if I may ask. Do you just not like it? Is it to hard? Are you just not liking running zombies?

I really can't think of any good reason, so this is an honest question.

Let me start off by saying this is not an argument of right or wrong. I think your POV is fine. You want this change to make your game more fun. I have no issues with this.

My concern is partially new players. This will make a game, for new players, that's hard even more difficult and I think unfairly so. Putting zombies on walk just to have them run anyway would be really frustrating to the new player. Ferals work like this but it's based off gamestage. I think the rage thing should be based off gamestage as well.

My second concern is I already take a good amount of damage and I get hit all the time when melee already. Not trying to promote but watch a video of mine to see or come to a Saturday stream.

I'm not the best player in the world but I think I'm ok.

- - - Updated - - -

The Rage speed boost doesn't make them suddenly go from walk to sprint. @madmole stated that the speed boost is not even to the next speed level but about half way between their set speed and the next level. So walking would speed up to be faster than walking but slower than jog, etc. Personally I like this idea as it adds some variation to the zeds and enhances combat, but I much prefer melee so my opinion is probably biased.

Well that's cool. So not as bad as I thought.

 

[Aldranon]

Just do it like most TV shows do. Pretend it was a nightmare. You barely escaped but left your backpack there. Everything else was only a bad dream

Maybe I walked in my sleep and put the backpack there?

During a zombie apocalypse I see no problem there. The zombies will just think I'm one of the new guys.

"Thaaat guy waaalks like craaaap!"

 

[DatDamnDutchie]

Why do you need to have BloodMoon hordes when the time they show up is only 3.5% of the time in a week?
When playing with only a 7th day horde of course.. you get my point.

Big problem with boats and lakes is... you can avoid any horde. Thats something they are really trying to avoid. They fixed sitting underground by having zombies that can (kinda) dig, they made zombies slap around way more when you are up high, they are fixing driving around in your jeep all night.. etc. So having lakes and boats is just going to be an easy-mode horde-avoiding they wil have to fix.

 

[SnowDog1942]

I agree. After the death scene where the zombies are shown EATING YOU, I cant pretend I got away from that!

Good point, then many of the people who DONT start over complain about the "immersion" regarding other aspects of the game...

 

[Kage848]

I was wrecking everything with no healing other than primitive bandages and never getting hit. It needed something to spice it up. As I said its rare to see one jog, no sprinting. Its more like oh this guys moving a little faster than his buddies, enough to cause a bit of discomfort. A18 has better armor, less bleeding, so getting hit is more probable but less critical.

Ok cool. Cant wait to try it out.

 

[Kage848]

I've played without a compass and it does force you to use the sun and landmarks more which is cool. Sometimes the way the terrain bends can get you turned around so that if you don't have a heading always in front of your eyes you can easily get off course.
I think it would be fun to have to wait to see the compass until we could find/craft one and equip it. I think that it is also a pretty common way to do it in other games. If not an item, a perception perk that enables it.

It is very easy to test for anyone interested. Just press F7 and start exploring.

Hmmm you might have just given me an idea. No UI let's play?

 

[Aldranon]

Just imagine it's like the movie Halloween, except directed by M. Night Shyamalan. So instead of Michael Myers being unkillable, the protagonist is. What a twist!

That's bad for zombie moral if you ask me.

Zombie #1: "Man! I bite that guys head clean off and he's back again!"

Zombie #2: "We need to get a couple of the fat boys to eat him ALL! Its the only way to be sure."

 

[Viktoriusiii]

My concern is partially new players. This will make a game, for new players, that's hard even more difficult and I think unfairly so. Putting zombies on walk just to have them run anyway would be really frustrating to the new player. Ferals work like this but it's based off gamestage. I think the rage thing should be based off gamestage as well.

One thing I often see. But there ARE options to make it easier.

Yes basicially any game that has an "easy" mode makes it so easy that a toddler could beat it, why everyone is playing on normal or above...

But if I were to play a game that is too hard for me, I just tone down the difficulty until I'm better at it. There is no shame in that.

Spoiler

When I switched from Fifa to Pes, the playstyle was completely different from everything I knew. And while I crushed Fifas Legendary bots 5-0 or higher, I couldn't get a win out of professional (medium). So I went down and slowly worked myself up, learning the ins and outs and now I play on all-star and win 95%.

And if new players have trouble with that, they can change the settings... they don't even need to start a new game. Just quit and change the setting to your liking.

So yeah... I don't really see why making the game more complex is bad for new players... except for their egos maybe

Obviously they shouldn't just increase difficulty across the board and make easy the new normal.

I don't want new players to be completely overwhelmed.

But thats what the settings are for ^^

BM too stressing? Turn it off. Days too short? Make em longer. Zombies too fast? they can be even slower.

 

[Kage848]

One thing I often see. But there ARE options to make it easier.
Yes basicially any game that has an "easy" mode makes it so easy that a toddler could beat it, why everyone is playing on normal or above...

But if I were to play a game that is too hard for me, I just tone down the difficulty until I'm better at it. There is no shame in that.

Spoiler

When I switched from Fifa to Pes, the playstyle was completely different from everything I knew. And while I crushed Fifas Legendary bots 5-0 or higher, I couldn't get a win out of professional (medium). So I went down and slowly worked myself up, learning the ins and outs and now I play on all-star and win 95%.

And if new players have trouble with that, they can change the settings... they don't even need to start a new game. Just quit and change the setting to your liking.

So yeah... I don't really see why making the game more complex is bad for new players... except for their egos maybe

Obviously they shouldn't just increase difficulty across the board and make easy the new normal.

I don't want new players to be completely overwhelmed.

But thats what the settings are for ^^

BM too stressing? Turn it off. Days too short? Make em longer. Zombies too fast? they can be even slower.

The whole turn down the difficulty thing is a bad argument. I could always say to others, just turn up the difficulty.

If your already playing everything on max difficulty, which I doubt, theres always hardcore mods like ravenhurst. I hear Roland's is pretty hardcore as well.

I think the default difficulty was pretty good in a17 and does not need any beefing up. But again I havent played a18 so maybe the rage thing is offset with other balance changes.

 

[Ezed]

Big problem with boats and lakes is... you can avoid any horde. Thats something they are really trying to avoid. They fixed sitting underground by having zombies that can (kinda) dig, they made zombies slap around way more when you are up high, they are fixing driving around in your jeep all night.. etc. So having lakes and boats is just going to be an easy-mode horde-avoiding they wil have to fix.

Gyro-copter...I guess it makes sense 'cause the world is 50% air?

 

[RipClaw]

Hmmm you might have just given me an idea. No UI let's play?

Playing without UI is not really possible because you can't loot anything. But with a little HUD modlet it should not be hard to hide the clock and the compass.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

The whole turn down the difficulty thing is a bad argument. I could always say to others, just turn up the difficulty.
If your already playing everything on max difficulty, which I doubt, theres always hardcore mods like ravenhurst. I hear Roland's is pretty hardcore as well.

I think the default difficulty was pretty good in a17 and does not need any beefing up. But again I havent played a18 so maybe the rage thing is offset with other balance changes.

I get what you are saying. But I do feel like you are looking at it from the wrong angle.

First: this is not about difficulty, but complexity. To make fighting Z's less monotone. So turning up the difficulty doesn'T change that.

ALTOUGH changing the speed of the Z's does change the momentum a lot. But this is about variety. A bit up unpredictableness.

Second: yes and no. You are obviously right that one can spin this narrative in both directions...

But if someone is seriously overstrained by zombies on the absolute lowest difficulty (so difficulty, speed, no running and all that), they should probably go into gaming journalism (Ha! Cuphead reference, and yes I know the full story )

No but seriously. A horror survival game SHOULD challenge you. But you can not cater to everyone. And those that are THAT bad at the game... I'm sorry... but either need to adapt or play minecraft

You will never catch me saying "give every difficulty a 50% increase in difficulty". But you WILL hear me advocating for bigger Z's, more dangers and so on.

Make the game more complex. Give it more variety, even if, in the end it increases the difficulty a bit.

Tl;dr:

With this argument "oh will someone think of the new players" you can advocate against any change that brings complexity. "Oh why is there 3 new crafting recipes? Even more to learn for new players!" and so on.

Just tell them to lower the difficulty, speed of Z's and to use a bow if they have trouble in melee. At least until they have guns.

I'm sorry but hampering the development to accomodate new players is not the right way.

MAybe you could add a new entry into that weird tutorial manual thingy that no one ever read

Like when you get hit the first time:

"Close combat with Zombies is dangerous. Make sure you are prepared. They can make you bleed,stun or even infect you. If you feel they are too overwhelming avoid their range by using a bow!"

(and I know I do not sound as articulate as others... but that is the problem with speaking a second language )

 

[Gatling96]

I just don't get it... Why do hate players which avoiding bloodmoon horde ? I think everyone has the right to play and to do whatever he likes, in his own game/server. Its pointless to add things like EMP etc just to force people fighting every 7th night...

No offence,but adding things to force players to fight on bloodmoon is useless. Plus it will slow the game development (which is kinda slow anyway) I think there is way more important things to be added in the current/next updates.

Thanks

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I just don't get it... Why do hate players which avoiding bloodmoon horde ? I think everyone has the right to play and to do whatever he likes, in his own game/server. Its pointless to add things like EMP etc just to force people fighting every 7th night...
No offence,but adding things to force players to fight on bloodmoon is useless. Plus it will slow the game development (which is kinda slow anyway) I think there is way more important things to be added in the current/next updates.

Thanks

nobody hates you for doing it! Seriously! Nobody in this forum does!

We are more than happy if you just put the settings of "Blood Moon Horde:" to "off".

BUT we that have this setting activated, do not want an easy way to escape it. Otherwise it becomes meaningless.

It would be like Skyrim where every Dragon is oneshot by a guard. It is a meaningless threat.

Therefor there should be no avoiding path that is safe. (As MM said, if there are threats while driving that is fine as well)

Please understand this. This discussion isn't about hating that others do something. It is about ourselves. And if the threat has an easy, obvious solution, it is no longer a threat.

 

[Ezed]

I just don't get it... Why do hate players which avoiding bloodmoon horde ? I think everyone has the right to play and to do whatever he likes, in his own game/server. Its pointless to add things like EMP etc just to force people fighting every 7th night...
No offence,but adding things to force players to fight on bloodmoon is useless. Plus it will slow the game development (which is kinda slow anyway) I think there is way more important things to be added in the current/next updates.

Thanks

I think a horde night every 7 days is a bit much so I change to a 30 day (+/-) cycle to simulate RL full moons. My RP back story is I woke up (on Day 1) having barely just survived the previous nights full moon which can explain how I know full moons bring out these crazy, inescapable hordes. Also, gives me more time to prepare and choose a good spot for my base. Seems a more logical and balanced game to me, and me is what it's all about

 

[meganoth]

#1, the idea is to kill or get killed. Player might be under prepared on first night and hence it is his fault. He get more prepared. He change his style and come out of comfort zone. By making vehicle not starting and no way to runaway, is doing the same. But it is forcing to fight on every attempt, but this idea make it only on second.
#2 For player who don't get challenge enough, won't see difference, as they play now. they still get higher game stage and same game play for them.

#3 again if you are not prepare on first or second you are not prepare ever.. it is still better than forcing you to fight

Well, it is no problem to argue both ways, it is just a design decision, i.e. how the designer wants a game to work, how he wants difficulty to scale. Especially short games with high replay value (like rogue-likes) have no problem with such a dynamic. Longer games (with replay value or not), like the "panzer general" series by SSI, showed that players need a lot of frustration resistancy if fight after fight got harder and they practically had lost the game hours before the final defeat. Or conversely got bored by easier and easier fights because they got too far ahead of the enemy.

We know how TFP generally wants their difficulty curve to work because there is gamestage. Since gamestage has the contrary effect to this idea, I assume they don't want beginners to get on a negative difficulty spiral while experienced players get dissappointed by the follow-up BM hordes, fault or not.

PS: You seem to have missed madmole's posts where he said that they don't want to make vehicles totally deactivate on BM. And very probably a hotel at the trader is coming into the game, so there will be no unavoidable force to fight BM.

 

[meganoth]

Is that really the case? There was recently a report in this forum from a player of a group who disabled the horde night.
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?119471-Experiences-playing-without-horde-night

I don't get the impression that the player or his teammates are missing something relevant.

You could also disable zombies and throw out all weapons from the game and have a game similar to minecraft. Minecraft players might have no problem having fun in such a game. Zombies and weapons are still relevant. So is horde night.