PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[madmole]

Depends on who you ask as with anything. It was the regular spikes and not the log spikes anyway. But Madmole, himself, enjoys casting this particular spell so it is probably here to stay
It does require some amount of skill to place them effectively in the heat of the moment and of course the effort of chopping all the wood. So maybe it is somewhat in line with driving in a car but needing to swerve out of the way of zombies in your path.

Spikes are pretty effective if you make enough of them. Its deliberately a pain in the ass so you seek more advanced and automated traps like turrets, blades darts, etc.

 

[SnowDog1942]

That is exactly the point tho... At least in my opinion.Classes do not enhance replayvalue, they constrict it.

Before I could go heavy armor (A16) and club, but also light armor and club.

Now if I go into the heavy armor, I can not skill up my bow without spending extra points, which restricts options.

I'm not saying its the worst part about the A17 changes... not by far, and if that is something you really wanted to do that is fine... but don't act as if "classes" give us more freedom, when in fact, it restricts playstyles by making certain playstyles a lot more skillpoint efficient and others way more skillpointhungry.

So basically u want to be the best at everything on one chatacter, aka demi god.

Replay means to play again, and u can specialize differently each play...that adds replay value. If u are a god every game u play and have every skill, there is less inentive to replay

 

[madmole]

It definitely is not an RPG. But it does have RPG elements. It borrows mechanics normally associated with RPGs. I would classify it more as an Adventure game in which you create your own stories as you live in the world.
I think reducing loot drops from zombies made it less of a shooter but the fact that there is still a significant xp reward is what keeps the shooter elements continuing to feel significant.

It is definitely a genre mutt of a game...lol

Any game with perk choices is an RPG, where at the end of the game if you have different abilities and character than the next guy it is an rpg. How you play defines it as an RPG too, deciding to be a nomad specializing in fortitude vs a nerd with tech gear and a fortress are definitely RPG decisions. Wearing no armor, light or heavy is also an RPG choice. You can be Rick Grimes or Neagan. Once we get factions and npc survivors it should be considered a full on RPG I would think.

Its just starting to scratch the surface of an RPG though, there is much more to come.

 

[RipClaw]

That is exactly the point tho... At least in my opinion.Classes do not enhance replayvalue, they constrict it.

Before I could go heavy armor (A16) and club, but also light armor and club.

Now if I go into the heavy armor, I can not skill up my bow without spending extra points, which restricts options.

I'm not saying its the worst part about the A17 changes... not by far, and if that is something you really wanted to do that is fine... but don't act as if "classes" give us more freedom, when in fact, it restricts playstyles by making certain playstyles a lot more skillpoint efficient and others way more skillpointhungry.

I agree with you that classes mean restrictions if you don't match one of the predefined classes. Most of the time I fight in close combat but I also use stealth and the crossbow. I'm also a single player, so I have to craft everything myself. Accordingly 2 or 3 branches are not enough for my game but I have to invest points in all branches. I don't have to level everything to the maximum, but I need more points than someone who matches the predefined classes.

I am curious if I can save a branch in Alpha 18 but as far as I could see from the videos this will probably not be the case. So I will continue to try to distribute the points as efficiently as possible and try to save points by using items like the nerdy glasses or the cigarr.

I also used the magazines to temporarily unlock something without having to invest the points. But these are no longer available in Alpha 18. I have to think of something else to save points.

 

[madmole]

OK here's a silly...
Behemoths are in our future. So, scale up some buzzards into Behemoth Buzzards that are large enough to pick up vehicles in their talons. They'd carry you up a bit then drop you when it realizes 4x4's (motorcycles, etc.) don't taste so good.

Keeps vehicles as they are and adds new 'gameplay' via the skillful driving required to avoid being snagged.

Also a threat to gyro-copters (much needed IMO).

Behemoths are not in the future and giant buzzards? No thanks.

 

[madmole]

I think this alone is good enough answer for cryers... "Why should i deffend my base when you can just run away?"
Just choose whichever option is fun for you, for gods sake. That is my whole point.

--------update-----------

On other note... Are we going to be able to plant snowberries? I am sorry if this was discussed before, but yesterday, when i could find no freaking snowberries, i realized that when it runs out, it is out. RIP my yucca smoothie.

I want to do some alchemy A19 and come up with a nice list of effects and ingredients.

 

[madmole]

Yeah I'm actually pretty disheartened to hear that there won't be a NPC/colony system in the game, because of the performance of the game..

There will be, just not your own personal group of farmable slaves. You can join a faction, hang out in their base, take quests from them, etc.

 

[RipClaw]

Auger + your feet, baby!

Strapping a auger to the minibike or the motorcycle would be awesome

 

[madmole]

I'll tell you one reason. Because MM, who is an actual game designer and knows better than any of us, also wants to close off these loopholes, because he recognizes that loopholes != solid and balanced gameplay choices.

When there is an easy loophole we've failed at creating an interesting tower defense game. "Just build a pit and its end game". Fixed. "Just dig a 3 meter hole and put a frame over the top and its end game" Fixed. "Just make some log spikes and its end game" Fixed. Why does it surprise people when we take action to stop super easy cheesy exploits?

We don't want to remove freedom, we want to remove cheesy exploits that make it easy to be safe. Players need to have fear at all times, even late game, just not as much.

 

[Hamburglar]

Will we be seeing drilling vehicles any time soon?

Sorry for the repost but i'd like to clarify.

This would be endgame alone, a really expensive craft, and also it would dig editable amount of blocks, Ie: 3x3 and fast; 4x4 slower; 5x5 slowest, diameter_of_hole/velocity_of_digging.

This would also answer 2 particularly high demand lategame difficulties, outsourcing enough resources for building infrastructure (like tunnels and such but digging long distances takes sooooooooo long), and also collecting resources, as it would open the possibility for faster mining as resource availability becomes lower (like brass and lead).

It would work by pointing the mouse thoards the voxels you want to dig, and it'd have a few tracks allowing it to traverse and rotate.

So you would see lategame mining made fun! People could build a vast and complex grid of tunnels with these.

What do you think?

 

[Roland]

When there is an easy loophole we've failed at creating an interesting tower defense game. "Just build a pit and its end game". Fixed. "Just dig a 3 meter hole and put a frame over the top and its end game" Fixed. "Just make some log spikes and its end game" Fixed. Why does it surprise people when we take action to stop super easy cheesy exploits?
We don't want to remove freedom, we want to remove cheesy exploits that make it easy to be safe. Players need to have fear at all times, even late game, just not as much.

You should develop "Idle 7 Days" for mobile devices for all the folks who can't buy into this vision. That way they have an alternative.

#morefreedom

 

[madmole]

I'd still log out. Makes no difference to me if I stay at the traders, stay afk in a bm bunker or log out. At least logging out I won't take up server resources, which can be a big deal on 8+ servers. In all "choices" I'd have to sit on ass, wasting time, not playing.
On our server for example more than half of the players log out during bm in late game. I can only assume why.

A few enjoy bm so much that they do them all and even get upset when missing one.

A few use em to level up.

To me personally, they stop being fun when the radiated start appearing and it's all about having enough ammo, which I always have. Takes a day in sp and even less time on mp to get bm ready.

[humor]It could just as well take 1000 rounds from every inventory, level you up four times and make it 4am. If you don't have 1000 rounds when a bm starts the game will kill you and take your perks. Then make it 4am.[/Humor]

I don't think I've died during bm due to difficulty. It's always from bugs or large HP pools without effective weapons against them. Yeah, I consider five radiated cops at the same time a bug in sp and on mp it really doesn't matter. No horde has the slightest chance against a group of players.

make headshots on radiated kill everytime and reduce their numbers, I might be coaxed back. Beating something with good aim is more fun for me than relying on big numbers. The relying on big numbers just activates a calculation in my brain saying "yepp, got enough ammo, would win. Now skip it and continue" in the end I'd rather get on with my building and wish the guys doing bm good luck.

Everyone wants more zombies but you? What if there was an increasing chance per kill you make (not traps) to get a loot drop? So the more guys you killed, the more loot you got? Then by being engaged you would get more nice yellow bags to collect.

I'll be honest I haven't played much/any late game stuff in some years so that is my top priority so I can see how these feel.

 

[madmole]

Make it so, after you've killed x zombies during a bm night, one of the new spawns is scripted with a 100% chance to drop a special loot bag. This bag lasts longer than normal loot bags (so it won't expire before you have a chance to grab it waiting for 4 am). This bag has a lot of ammo, maybe some raw diamonds etc, and a chance at a legendary item (future) or just some top tier loot for your level/gamestage.
Makes bm reward you and slightly stave off the massive resource consumption that is a bm hoard.

Similar to what I posted, but I like my idea better where the more kills you score on a BM the chance to drop bags goes up. This method you could let the traps do the work and just make sure to kill the special zed who drops loot and conserve ammo.

 

[Thecolours]

Similar to what I posted, but I like my idea better where the more kills you score on a BM the chance to drop bags goes up. This method you could let the traps do the work and just make sure to kill the special zed who drops loot and conserve ammo.

Will the special zed be easily identifiable?

 

[Viktoriusiii]

So basically u want to be the best at everything on one chatacter, aka demi god.
Replay means to play again, and u can specialize differently each play...that adds replay value. If u are a god every game u play and have every skill, there is less inentive to replay

how... what... how did you even get to that conclusion?

WTF

Beeing good at 2 things is not the same as beeing good at all.

What I criticised was not beeing able to mix specific combinations. Aka if I want to go Sledgehammer, I need strength. But If I want to be the farmer in our group, I also need to specc into fortitude. This might not be too bad since oyu need both.

But if I want light armor, I also need Agility. Now if I want to barter, I also need Intellect. And if I want to be able to loot I also need perception.

That is all perks that I need to get up to level 10 to max out and that for only 5 skills (heavy metal, living off the land, barter, lucky looter, light armor) sure I now have the option to do everything, but that is not what I want.

Now as a comparison to A16:

If I wanted to be able to be good at the same things, you know what I needed to do? Just do it. I could max out all these things without ever having to "learn everything".

Why is this bad?

Because now I am "forced" to be the miner of the group if I want to go melee. I am "forced" to be the useless guy if I want to craft (btw so happy to see that ♥♥♥♥ go, but the overarching problem still stands of classes) if I want to be a silent guy, I am "forced" into light armor.

It is restricting. I can not play how I want for no other reason than "this is now considered fortitude".

There is no realism behind this. It is just arbitrary, as MM even stated in his video where he said that they made perk X that category because it would have felt too empty otherwise. And that is restricting.

Which can be good when well done, but do not act as if it is to enhance player choice, when it clearly doesnt.

 

[Tin]

Similar to what I posted, but I like my idea better where the more kills you score on a BM the chance to drop bags goes up. This method you could let the traps do the work and just make sure to kill the special zed who drops loot and conserve ammo.

I want the mechanic of being able to adjust our own "Blood-Moon" time length up to 24hrs as well please make it so, even if it's an xml thing alone.

 

[RestInPieces]

When there is an easy loophole we've failed at creating an interesting tower defense game. .... Why does it surprise people when we take action to stop super easy cheesy exploits?

Well it's easier to get used to the direct convenience that these cheesy exploits offer you and learn to rely on them, than adapt and appreciate the long-term value of an interesting tower defense game.

You should develop "Idle 7 Days" for mobile devices for all the folks who can't buy into this vision. That way they have an alternative.
#morefreedom

Can't wait. It's hard to roleplay a nudist fruitarian pacifist character in this version and zombies insist on not respecting my safe space! It's 2019 people!

#dontsupressmyplaystyle

 

[SnowDog1942]

how... what... how did you even get to that conclusion? WTF

Beeing good at 2 things is not the same as beeing good at all.

What I criticised was not beeing able to mix specific combinations. Aka if I want to go Sledgehammer, I need strength. But If I want to be the farmer in our group, I also need to specc into fortitude. This might not be too bad since oyu need both.

But if I want light armor, I also need Agility. Now if I want to barter, I also need Intellect. And if I want to be able to loot I also need perception.

That is all perks that I need to get up to level 10 to max out and that for only 5 skills (heavy metal, living off the land, barter, lucky looter, light armor) sure I now have the option to do everything, but that is not what I want.

Now as a comparison to A16:

If I wanted to be able to be good at the same things, you know what I needed to do? Just do it. I could max out all these things without ever having to "learn everything".

Why is this bad?

Because now I am "forced" to be the miner of the group if I want to go melee. I am "forced" to be the useless guy if I want to craft (btw so happy to see that ♥♥♥♥ go, but the overarching problem still stands of classes) if I want to be a silent guy, I am "forced" into light armor.

It is restricting. I can not play how I want for no other reason than "this is now considered fortitude".

There is no realism behind this. It is just arbitrary, as MM even stated in his video where he said that they made perk X that category because it would have felt too empty otherwise. And that is restricting.

Which can be good when well done, but do not act as if it is to enhance player choice, when it clearly doesnt.

Enhancing choices means having consequences -- that is meaningful. If u get everything there is no choice because well, u get it all.

 

[RipClaw]

We don't want to remove freedom, we want to remove cheesy exploits that make it easy to be safe. Players need to have fear at all times, even late game, just not as much.

Fear is one of the worst emotions for me. I have never understood why someone wants to feel fear.

I have no problem investing work to feel safe.

I have spent the last two ingame weeks building a new base with the work area on the bedrock. The upper part of the base is surrounded by a wall of reinforced concrete and a trench filled with iron spikes. Since it's not a horde base but just a crafting base, it's actually overkill. The defense should only protect against wandering hordes and screamers. But better safe than sorry.

And it was a lot of fun to build the base. That's the kind of fun I want more for the game.

 

[madmole]

I care how other people play.
I care how other people do all kinds of things - workout, read, train their dog, raise their kids, play their games, cook their food, talk to their spouse, etc. etc. etc.

This was a great post. I played A16 and was having fun, until I couldn't reach my base at night in time. I scrambled to the top of a building and a day 28 horde couldn't reach me and didn't do squat to damage to this old bar I was camped on. I thought, why am I bothering to find guns and ammo and risking my life when all I need to do is _____. Why build a mega fort when all I need to do is _____. There has to be an impeding doom, a serious consequence to the player if they die. Otherwise it turns into minecraft and I set out to make a voxel survival game, not another minecraft clone.
At the end of the day there needs to be risks/rewards/failures. A good game will give you a variety of emotions and will most certainly leave you with some long lasting memories. To me the ones that stand out were always challenging in nature. Beating the butcher in Diablo was hard the first time. Getting a kraken skin in agario and learning all the advanced tricks to that game, being number one and eating everyone was rewarding and memorable. Lydia died in Skyrim, I felt kind of devastated because the npc and my character grew a meaningful connection. Beating the asses of the mordor forces in LOTR BFME was rewarding. I like Bethesda games because they are great at evoking feelings with story, player progression, and with some mods, death alternative its much better getting revenge than having to just reload a save game.

People play pvp for the challenge. Playing against an unpredictable opponent or full group of opponents is challenging.

So for us to just toss away one of the main pillars of this game (tower defense) and allow cheesy exploits to go on isn't acceptable.

But yes at a psychological level its important to have real wins. To some people its building a big castle in an apocalypse. I do that for the final FU to the zombies. To others its getting the best loot or maxing out their attributes. Some want to help the trader, it gives them a sense of purpose or they guaranteed reward is nice. Seeing your name at the top of a leader board can be rewarding.

But it is important to recognize what IS fun. It varies of course, but it is never fun for long if its handed to you on a silver platter. I never liked fixing rentals, but the reward was immense to buy something cheap, fix it up and turn it into a profiting investment and have cleaned up the neighborhood in the process. So it doesn't always have to be FUN, it has to be emotionally rewarding in some way.