PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[agrastiOs]

I would but my login thing doesn't even seem to work.
EDIT: I don't see much value in changing settings per difficulty type. That just makes a bigger mess. We believe in defaults and beyond that it just gets into various snowflakes.

I mean, I don't think it would make a bigger mess, considering these options already all exist, it would just be something interesting. And if you don't want the difficulty options to change anything else (I mostly pitched it in because people complain that in higher difficulties zombies are bullet sponges), then some "alternate playstyle" (separate from difficulty) presets would still be pretty neat, a la Mutations in L4D2.

Great job so far on 17.3! A18 looks and sounds great too!

 

[faatal]

Sorry for not being specific. On nightmare speed (no buffs, or debuffs):
-Without heavy armor, as a level 1 noob without perks I can outrun them forever with ease. Even have the time to turn aim and shoot and keep running, watch the scenery, loot etc. Not exaggerating.

-With full steel armor (all pieces) at level 1 with no perks, player sprinting is faster but stamina runs out and stamina regeneration is not enough to increase the distance between you and them so they can get you.

-With full steel armor and 5/5 cardio, I can outrun them barely, but reliably (stamina regeneration is enough to keep a steady distance between us).

Exactly. Would be nice if from these 4 speed settings, 1 of them was fast enough so that players aren't possibly able to avoid zombies, with or without armor. Would be great to have this kind of speed setting, especially for horde nights, so that there is a practical reason to barricade and build defenses.

This will be different in A18, since there was a bug reducing animation root motion, which when fixed made all the animals and zombies much faster, so I tweeked some of the AI move speeds back down to try to match how it was before. This should give more headroom for higher speeds, since it was capped out before on nightmare.

Bottom line, we will be making another pass over that for A18.

 

[Guppycur]

Please, I'm asking for boats since Alpha 15. I don't understand why you can't do this:

Well to be fair, that modder is a professional developer for a much larger (and unnamed, not my business) game company.

 

[maleitch]

Someone said, why can't you do it because minecraft can.... well we're not minecraft. If our zombies were legos and our view distance 10 meters and skeletons having 3 bones, lots more could be done lol.
To us a fully destroyable world was a key feature, and with that comes sacrifices of performance, difficulty doing AI and a lot of unorthodox problems.

That explains the challenge then. Makes total sense. I had a feeling it was the totally destructible world. Not to split hairs, but does that also impact the network prediction code or server refresh rate? I know this is a very technical subject way outside of my knowledge, but it is interesting how much networking performances SEEMS to degrade on a MP server over time. This must be a nightmare to address, but I am sure you guys are up for it.

 

[RantingMonkey]

Man you need your head examined if you don't like the new POIs with sleepers. Those guys killed it.

I love the POIs but I do think the scaling in A17 is off. My friend and I steam this game every week and between us we have well over 4000 hours in. And if we're being honest, A16 was way too easy for anyone beyond beginner. Our last A16 run we didn't even pay attention to the Zs unless we wanted the xp. The only real issue was getting a pack of wolves or dogs on day 1.

In A17, holy crap, it should be nicknamed the feral alpha. I like that the Zs take more damage and that often you just can't ignore them, especially since looting is such a big part of the game now but running into ferals in every new POI regardless of my level really puts me off even wanting to explore them. It's why I haven't run a single player game in this alpha. Early on it doesn't feel like risk/reward it feels like punishment/reward. I can't count the number of ferals we've run into before day 14.

Just saying, it seems like the scaling is just off a bit.

 

[madmole]

Well to be fair, that modder is a professional developer for a much larger (and unnamed, not my business) game company.

LOL well that may be, but the boat physics are totally unacceptable. Not his fault the vehicle framework in A16 was horrid so it would be really hard to mod in a decent boat. Anyhow you guys keep missing the point. Sloppy mods are not good enough for 7 days. Hacking something in to a barely functional version versus delivering a shippable product you can put your name and sell on are two different things.

Nobody judges mods. They are opt in fun little add ons that let you do what you want. They can be buggy and laggy, look horrible, but nobody cares. If we put in a stiff boat with no buoyancy, loaded full of bugs there would be raging. Like there used to be with the minibike

 

[madmole]

That explains the challenge then. Makes total sense. I had a feeling it was the totally destructible world. Not to split hairs, but does that also impact the network prediction code or server refresh rate? I know this is a very technical subject way outside of my knowledge, but it is interesting how much networking performances SEEMS to degrade on a MP server over time. This must be a nightmare to address, but I am sure you guys are up for it.

We have to network every meter of space in the game, update it during run time, and send that data to everyone. Ark, Dazy, just load all that up on the client because its the same map and it NEVER changes. All they have to network are dinos/zombies and players. Unity's character controllers are really expensive too, making larger numbers harder.

 

[Drithyl]

Nice list of fixes, although I'm slightly disappointed that the double reload animation of weapons while zooming in is still in the known bugs; that stuff is really annoying and something players experience all the time

 

[TSBX]

LOL well that may be, but the boat physics are totally unacceptable. Not his fault the vehicle framework in A16 was horrid so it would be really hard to mod in a decent boat. Anyhow you guys keep missing the point. Sloppy mods are not good enough for 7 days. Hacking something in to a barely functional version versus delivering a shippable product you can put your name and sell on are two different things.
Nobody judges mods. They are opt in fun little add ons that let you do what you want. They can be buggy and laggy, look horrible, but nobody cares. If we put in a stiff boat with no buoyancy, loaded full of bugs there would be raging. Like there used to be with the minibike

Sloppy mods are unacceptable, but sloppy minibikes in A12 were?

Don't ♥♥♥♥ all over a guy who made a bunch of awesome vehicles that had much more functionality (firing weapons, multiple seats, etc) than the vanilla system did who also did it in his off time as a hobby with no obligation or compensation based off of the one video you saw.

It may not be a shippable retail product, but as far as mods go, it's pretty damn cool and well done. As a former modder, I'd think you could appreciate the creativity and dedication it took to do that based on the vehicle system you just said was "horrid".

Stop selling out.

 

[madmole]

Sloppy mods are unacceptable, but sloppy minibikes in A12 were?
Don't ♥♥♥♥ all over a guy who made a bunch of awesome vehicles that had much more functionality (firing weapons, multiple seats, etc) than the vanilla system did who also did it in his off time as a hobby with no obligation or compensation based off of the one video you saw.

It may not be a shippable retail product, but as far as mods go, it's pretty damn cool and well done. As a former modder, I'd think you could appreciate the creativity and dedication it took to do that based on the vehicle system you just said was "horrid".

Stop selling out.

Again, you completely missed the point and fabricated that I somehow ♥♥♥♥ on this guy.
I didn't ♥♥♥♥ on him at all, his mod is as good as could be expected given the vehicle framework for 16. Who said I didn't appreciate it? I'm trying to make people understand just because its in a mod doesn't mean we can just toss it into the game. Its way more complicated. A mod author can just say known issues, falls through the world, gets stuck on the beach, etc and thats it. People use it for fun, they know the risk. But we can't do that because we're selling a product that has to be a certain quality.

 

[Guppycur]

Let me preface this by saying I don't think you intended on crapping on it, but ya did.

We all know that mods have latitude that shippable games do not, that's not the point WE are making.

TormentedEmu's horse and Manux's vehicles were all done without real access to source code and quite frankly were leaps and bounds above what you guys did prior to faatal's arrival.

 

[Roland]

Sloppy mods are unacceptable, but sloppy minibikes in A12 were?
Don't ♥♥♥♥ all over a guy who made a bunch of awesome vehicles that had much more functionality (firing weapons, multiple seats, etc) than the vanilla system did who also did it in his off time as a hobby with no obligation or compensation based off of the one video you saw.

It may not be a shippable retail product, but as far as mods go, it's pretty damn cool and well done. As a former modder, I'd think you could appreciate the creativity and dedication it took to do that based on the vehicle system you just said was "horrid".

Stop selling out.

I think you missed his point. He wasn't saying it was a bad mod. He was saying that there is a different standard and expectation for dev work and mod work. The word "sloppy" means "not polished" in this context and not "poor" or "stupid". Because we all know the guy did it in his spare time, with no compensation, and for love of the game and it is our choice to download it or not we are willing to overlook the flaws. If TFP released that same quality of work there would be initial excitement for the new content followed by outrage over the poor physics and anything else viewed as subpar. If TFP released what we saw as the final product they would be crucified. There's stuff in the game right now created by TFP that if it doesn't get polished up they will be crucified.

It is a great mod and the guy is very talented and we all appreciated what he was able to do. For TFP to do the same and make sure it is balanced and isn't going to fall through the world, and operate with good physics, and work with 8 players all on boats going in different directions, and and and.... it takes time and work.

 

[Roland]

Again, you completely missed the point and fabricated that I somehow ♥♥♥♥ on this guy.

This is what they wanted:

Madmole: Daaaaaaaaaaamn....those boats are sweet. That guy must be amazing talented to do what he did using the A16 framework. We would like to have fully functioning boats in our game but it would take a lot of work because as good as that guy's stuff is it isn't up to the standards we are held to without causing a ton of negative feedback. Modders can leave things unpolished or buggy because everyone knows they did it in their spare time as a hobby and probably did the best they could within the constraints of our code so it is forgiven. If WE do that then it is called sloppy and poor and we get negative feedback. So we have to consider how much work and how much time it would take for us to do something as awesome and amazing as that modder did given the level of expectation we have to operate in.

 

[TSBX]

I'll concede that maybe MM didn't mean for his post to sound the way it did.

 

[madmole]

Let me preface this by saying I don't think you intended on crapping on it, but ya did.
We all know that mods have latitude that shippable games do not, that's not the point WE are making.

TormentedEmu's horse and Manux's vehicles were all done without real access to source code and quite frankly were leaps and bounds above what you guys did prior to faatal's arrival.

Thats fantastic, but what is your point? To talk about unusable pie in the sky assets? Even IF it were of amazing AAA quality the way its integrated is probably not compatible with how we code and integrate new systems. It would be faster to just rewrite our own than to try and integrate someone elses mod.

To be clear, I love mods and what modders do, and I in no way ♥♥♥♥ on that guy.

 

[HungryZombie]

Those are fine under strength. Have you ever held a pickaxe? I'm strong AF and those things are insane to actually wield. Would destroy any normie.

Many moons ago I broke up a concrete sidewalk with a pickaxe and a sledge. No way I can see a human being using either as a real weapon other than maybe a 1 shot sneak attack.

 

[The Gronk]

Many moons ago I broke up a concrete sidewalk with a pickaxe and a sledge. No way I can see a human being using either as a real weapon other than maybe a 1 shot sneak attack.

Research medieval weaponry. You'll find war-hammers and war-picks used quite often to take down the heavily armoured and visually impaired knights. You can't see much through a bucket-helm so lining up a decent shot is relatively easy.

 

[madmole]

This is what they wanted:
Madmole: Daaaaaaaaaaamn....those boats are sweet. That guy must be amazing talented to do what he did using the A16 framework. We would like to have fully functioning boats in our game but it would take a lot of work because as good as that guy's stuff is it isn't up to the standards we are held to without causing a ton of negative feedback. Modders can leave things unpolished or buggy because everyone knows they did it in their spare time as a hobby and probably did the best they could within the constraints of our code so it is forgiven. If WE do that then it is called sloppy and poor and we get negative feedback. So we have to consider how much work and how much time it would take for us to do something as awesome and amazing as that modder did given the level of expectation we have to operate in.

Pretty much. I expect people to read what I write quickly and decipher that out of it lol. The biggest reason we don't have boats in is because water is a mess and needs redone. Can't code a boat on code that is getting deleted. BUT MODDERS DID IT..... WHY CAN'T YOU???? You know what happens to game code written on poor framework? It gets redone as well. Might as well wait until water is fixed, then we can have a conversation about boats, swimming, underwater exploration, etc.

 

[Guppycur]

Thats fantastic, but what is your point? To talk about unusable pie in the sky assets? Even IF it were of amazing AAA quality the way its integrated is probably not compatible with how we code and integrate new systems. It would be faster to just rewrite our own than to try and integrate someone elses mod.
To be clear, I love mods and what modders do, and I in no way ♥♥♥♥ on that guy.

I'm not even the one who brought the mod up. I responded to the guy who did, then you jumped in.

(Shrug)

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty much. I expect people to read what I write quickly and decipher that out of it lol. The biggest reason we don't have boats in is because water is a mess and needs redone. Can't code a boat on code that is getting deleted. BUT MODDERS DID IT..... WHY CAN'T YOU???? You know what happens to game code written on poor framework? It gets redone as well. Might as well wait until water is fixed, then we can have a conversation about boats, swimming, underwater exploration, etc.

Well also remember that last we heard, y'all WERE talking about a raft. Didn't we even see concept art?

 

[madmole]

I'm not even the one who brought the mod up. I responded to the guy who did, then you jumped in.
(Shrug)

- - - Updated - - -

Well also remember that last we heard, y'all WERE talking about a raft. Didn't we even see concept art?

Its in the project forever, I thought for sure people saw it or used it in mods by now. It has red barrels and a sail.