PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Menace312]

No one is forcing you to spend your points on things unrelated to how you got the points, either. You could, say, only level up your shotgun-related perks and attribute if and when you get points by using a shotgun. But there are other things, like armor perks, where the learn-by-doing model was tedious or otherwise not fun. So it made sense to turn XP into a more abstract 'currency' that can be spent on different things.

And there go the gameplay options... So not really a solution.

But I digress... It was only my opinion, so no need to get defensive Crater

 

[Trankitas]

A GIF really is worth a thousand words here. When the melee-build guys on our server complained, I had to concede that, even though I understand how all that matters is whether the crosshairs are aimed at the target, it's not an intuitive mechanic. It makes sense for projectiles and poking animations, but not for swinging animations. So I do think overhauling hit detection for melee weapons is important.


Yes, I think that's a solvable issue. I would propose each swing can only count as hitting one thing. In cases where multiple collisions are detected like [doorframe, zombie, wall], the collision closest to the center is the one that counts, where "center" could mean closest to the crosshairs, or closest to the midpoint of the animation. If you want fancy effects like a sledgehammer that knocks down multiple enemies per swing, that can be a radial area of effect centered on where that one hit connects.

Agreed

 

[Roland]

But really... Whats so bad about the min max meta?

Incentives. I witnessed the game change completely from people having as their main objectives things like harvesting materials, building a shelter, hunting for meat, scavenging POI's, and starting a garden-- and doing those things in an organic and survival focused manner to the game becoming all about chasing experience points for the purpose of leveling up as quickly as possible.

Now I'm not knocking that type of gameplay for those who like it but it was a dramatic departure of the types of incentives and rewards the player was exposed to and in my opinion-- not for the better.

Even the new system (imo) gives too much incentive to the player to directly increase their experience and level up by grinding even without LBD acting as highly addictive drug for that gameplay style. I have just one last hurdle to overcome which I'm hoping to get help on this week and then my mod will be ready for public testing in which xp is completely bypassed. You will gain skillpoints simply for surviving for a full day and for completing quests. Whether you kill zombies, avoid them, mine, farm, scavenge, trade...whatever—None of that will gain you xp and no activity will act as a missed opportunity where you could have done something else more valuable to level yourself up. You will take actions for their own merit and not as a means to gaining xp efficiently.

 

[KingSlayerGM]

Incentives. I witnessed the game change completely from people having as their main objectives things like harvesting materials, building a shelter, hunting for meat, scavenging POI's, and starting a garden-- and doing those things in an organic and survival focused manner to the game becoming all about chasing experience points for the purpose of leveling up as quickly as possible.

I would argue that the current game makes me farm zombies for experience and level up as quickly as possible. So that I can buy the perks that I want and actually do what I like: building.

So from my perspective I still need to grind.

 

[PurgatoryWolf]

Quests get repetitive super fast. Each tier uses the same couple of buildings. Get sick of what's on IV start on V, then get sick of those. Need more Quest variety.

My main complaint tho is you get such large rewards (cash value), that it's completely destroyed our in-game economy. in a16 we had tons of people buying and selling with each other. Now people just sell it to the trader and move on. I miss the player driven economy we had on 16, it was great. people talked, visited each other, it was healthy.

 

[madmole]

I understand your position... The game has to appeal to a wide audience.
But really... Whats so bad about the min max meta?

No one is forceing you to max everything... And the game should reflect that (you dont need master in everything, to "win" the game).

Its like you are catering to players with OCD.

No we're trying to avoid them by not having any grindy loops that force players to craft 1000 daggers, run in a corner with a weight on the W key etc. The perk buying system allows that. We went to far with it though and enabled crafting of high level weapons and didn't have books so it kind of killed looting. With some balance we believe it will be awesome.

 

[bob the big blob of goo]

I understand your position... The game has to appeal to a wide audience.
But really... Whats so bad about the min max meta?

No one is forceing you to max everything... And the game should reflect that (you dont need master in everything, to "win" the game).

Its like you are catering to players with OCD.

As one of the admins of several very active servers I interact with hundreds of players with varied play style. The resounding feedback on this topic is that they are very happy that they get experience for doing pretty much everything and they get to spend the XP the way they want. We have players that mostly mine and base build and the LBD limits their ability to casually play the rest of the game. Being able to spend the XP in areas they don't normally participate in gives them the ability to go out on a raid and enjoy the game.

It appears that most of the people pushing LBD feel you shouldn't be able to get general XP points from your actions and that you should be forced into the "class" your actions are associated with. They forget that a good number of players don't like "class" type play and simply want to be able to play any aspect of the game when it suits them.

It also appears that a majority of the LBD vocalists don't understand that they can use their own self-control and spend their general XP points only in the "class" they have arbitrarily chosen to limit themselves to.

The XP and perk system we have now allows everyone to play the way they choose. Please stop trying to take away every ones way to play just because you don't have the self-control to self-limit yourself to your own chosen "class" of play. It is very annoying. I respect your desire to have someone else put boundaries around you and I don't wish to participate in your fun house.

Note: I do appreciate the ability to MOD in LBD for designers where it makes perfect sense in their MOD. I love Ravenhearst and the class system that Jax and team have implemented. I also enjoy the fact that I still get general XP from most actions that allow me to supplement areas of play that I don't normally participate in. I think Jax has found a very nice balance on it. And, I still think that for the general vanilla game that LBD is being bantered around poorly. [Edited to add the note]

 

[Perlin_Worm]

I have family members play who are not combat savvy. The INT spec weapon combined with its support role will be extremely welcome

 

[Qyzer]

Incentives. I witnessed the game change completely from people having as their main objectives things like harvesting materials, building a shelter, hunting for meat, scavenging POI's, and starting a garden-- and doing those things in an organic and survival focused manner to the game becoming all about chasing experience points for the purpose of leveling up as quickly as possible.
Now I'm not knocking that type of gameplay for those who like it but it was a dramatic departure of the types of incentives and rewards the player was exposed to and in my opinion-- not for the better.

I'm noticing a lot of players on the servers I'm on having very low kill counts for their levels and it seems those same players disappear just before horde night. I have twice the kill counts of players with somewhere around twice my level. Based on just that, I can tell they are mining the vast majority of their levels, which gives them the safest and easiest path to XP. The problem with any general point system without some learn by doing is that it incentivizes players to only engage in the one or two activities with the one or two best pieces of equipment that maximize XP and reduce risk.

I'm eager to see the new split of things across the skill areas Madmole just mentioned, and it looks like a major improvement (looking forward to seeing spears too) but I don't see how it's going to stop people from just doing the 1 or 2 easiest things using the 1 or 2 best tools for that job, removing more or less ALL "roleplaying" and other options from the equation. He says he want people to play roles, but the best way to get to that role in the current and proposed systems is to NOT act in that role so you can get the points as fast as possible. It's why I think some LBDing is good (no, NOT armor skills, those were an example of how NOT to do it, not a proof the entire system is bad). If you want people to play roles, reward them for playing those roles, not for doing whatever gives them points and XP the fastest.

Even the new system (imo) gives too much incentive to the player to directly increase their experience and level up by grinding even without LBD acting as highly addictive drug for that gameplay style. I have just one last hurdle to overcome which I'm hoping to get help on this week and then my mod will be ready for public testing in which xp is completely bypassed. You will gain skillpoints simply for surviving for a full day and for completing quests. Whether you kill zombies, avoid them, mine, farm, scavenge, trade...whatever—None of that will gain you xp and no activity will act as a missed opportunity where you could have done something else more valuable to level yourself up. You will take actions for their own merit and not as a means to gaining xp efficiently.

That sounds great. Will this more or less remove levels as well? Will you go for some kind of POI based difficulty with it?

I'm very interested, looking forward to seeing how this goes.

 

[madmole]

Incentives. I witnessed the game change completely from people having as their main objectives things like harvesting materials, building a shelter, hunting for meat, scavenging POI's, and starting a garden-- and doing those things in an organic and survival focused manner to the game becoming all about chasing experience points for the purpose of leveling up as quickly as possible.
Now I'm not knocking that type of gameplay for those who like it but it was a dramatic departure of the types of incentives and rewards the player was exposed to and in my opinion-- not for the better.

Even the new system (imo) gives too much incentive to the player to directly increase their experience and level up by grinding even without LBD acting as highly addictive drug for that gameplay style. I have just one last hurdle to overcome which I'm hoping to get help on this week and then my mod will be ready for public testing in which xp is completely bypassed. You will gain skillpoints simply for surviving for a full day and for completing quests. Whether you kill zombies, avoid them, mine, farm, scavenge, trade...whatever—None of that will gain you xp and no activity will act as a missed opportunity where you could have done something else more valuable to level yourself up. You will take actions for their own merit and not as a means to gaining xp efficiently.

You know you need to go gold when the forum moderators are modding.

 

[Qyzer]

No we're trying to avoid them by not having any grindy loops that force players to craft 1000 daggers, run in a corner with a weight on the W key etc. The perk buying system allows that. We went to far with it though and enabled crafting of high level weapons and didn't have books so it kind of killed looting. With some balance we believe it will be awesome.

Instead we get the grindy loop of either mine all day and night, or kill lots of Zombies with the best gear you can find. You keep using the worst LBDing design you all came up with as reasons the whole system is broken. I'm happy with general points, and I think your proposed new stuff looks great, but you might try looking at the places where LBD wasn't broken, rather than the areas we all mostliy agree it was.

 

[Cazmyr]

Good morning all I hope everyone is well,

I really like the look of the new division of weapons through the attributes. I do have some questions and a balance item to bring up.

MadMole,

- New Attribute and Perk division

Will Fortitude and Agility still drive Max HP and Stamina? I love the idea of Clubs and Shotguns being in Strength as that is my bread and butter, but I am wondering if I will have to budget skill points for Fortitude and Agility to increase Max HP and Stamina.

- Balance Suggestion

I think the Nerdy Glasses are too OP. Especially if you get them early. Having 10% XP boost and craft at a +1 quality level is too much IMHO.

Especially if the quality of the item will drive the damage it does. I believe you hinted at going back to this.

I think it should be the 10% xp bonus only. Or give it something else to do with learning. Also if it is felt that 10% is too little without another bonus then it can be increased to 15% or 20%, what ever seems fair. I do think that the +1 crafting level is OP though and will be more so in the new system.

Thank you! have a great one!

 

[Thecolours]

Madmole, you did some work on making money off being a lumberjack or miner, by selling raw goods to the trader. I have a suggestion to further that idea in A18.

I know you hate the idea of classes or professions in 7DTD, but what if you could choose from a series of books or perks that let you become proficient in a one particular money making profession. You would only be allowed to choose from one profession and specialize in it (lumberjack, miner, scavenger, trapper) and get a small bonus selling to the trader.

 

[jcalvelli]

my mod will be ready for public testing in which xp is completely bypassed. You will gain skillpoints simply for surviving for a full day and for completing quests. Whether you kill zombies, avoid them, mine, farm, scavenge, trade...whatever—None of that will gain you xp and no activity will act as a missed opportunity where you could have done something else more valuable to level yourself up. You will take actions for their own merit and not as a means to gaining xp efficiently.

This mod will be loved!

 

[TylerDB]

Roland, i want that mod

 

[FA_Q2]

You know you need to go gold when the forum moderators are modding.

Well, you could just implement his idea in vanilla then

 

[Roland]

You know you need to go gold when the forum moderators are modding.

I only started modding because I knew gold was so close and I could only stand to have to update my mod a couple of times.

 

[Roland]

Well, you could just implement his idea in vanilla then

I don't think it would have widespread appeal. For example there was a lot of negativity when loot was hugely nerfed from killing zombies. With no loot and no xp I think a lot of people wouldn't be very happy. It appeals to some obviously but not for a vanilla experience.

I firmly believe that modding is for creating an alternate experience and not for fixing supposed problems. I'm doing this for my own preferences having fully played and enjoyed the vanilla experience. Even though I personally don't like an xp incentive tempting me to not play organically others really love and enjoy the process of accruing experience.

 

[madmole]

Good morning all I hope everyone is well,
I really like the look of the new division of weapons through the attributes. I do have some questions and a balance item to bring up.

MadMole,

- New Attribute and Perk division

Will Fortitude and Agility still drive Max HP and Stamina? I love the idea of Clubs and Shotguns being in Strength as that is my bread and butter, but I am wondering if I will have to budget skill points for Fortitude and Agility to increase Max HP and Stamina.

- Balance Suggestion

I think the Nerdy Glasses are too OP. Especially if you get them early. Having 10% XP boost and craft at a +1 quality level is too much IMHO.

Especially if the quality of the item will drive the damage it does. I believe you hinted at going back to this.

I think it should be the 10% xp bonus only. Or give it something else to do with learning. Also if it is felt that 10% is too little without another bonus then it can be increased to 15% or 20%, what ever seems fair. I do think that the +1 crafting level is OP though and will be more so in the new system.

Thank you! have a great one!

Yes, and I believe that is the plan for nerd glasses.

 

[madmole]

Madmole, you did some work on making money off being a lumberjack or miner, by selling raw goods to the trader. I have a suggestion to further that idea in A18.
I know you hate the idea of classes or professions in 7DTD, but what if you could choose from a series of books or perks that let you become proficient in a one particular money making profession. You would only be allowed to choose from one profession and specialize in it (lumberjack, miner, scavenger, trapper) and get a small bonus selling to the trader.

The books can only add, not subtract or block.