PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Crater Creator]

We added unity's incremental garbage collector, so we'll see. Hopefully. We're also editing the low settings to be more stripped out so hopefully some people get some speed back or its playable for people who couldn't.

Would that include, for instance, disabling screen space reflections when "reflection quality" is set to "off"? I was surprised recently to learn the only way to actually turn off reflections is through the new console command (gfx pp ssr 0), and it resulted in a major performance boost.

 

[Dark_Corvid]

I think some balance would help. I don't think its too easy to get a farm, unless you luck into a POI with 80 corn.
Nitrate is a fertilizer. We could make seed crafting require 200 nitrate, then its seeping into your gunpowder making ability significantly. Do you want to eat easily, or have ammo to kill these brain eaters that keep moaning outside? Choices are always good.

I think this is a good idea. It's a better way to accomplish the interesting decision making with the old fertilizer system without the waiting game that came with crafting it.

 

[Lanadon Conners]

Same. Thinking ahead is good in many situations in this game. If SP, I like to make these little stashes of items that I might need in a bind throughout the world, coupled with a small beacon so I can spot them better in the dark. A lot of things that you might scrap, sell, or simply trash because you don't want to deal with them, are useful when you have nothing.

100% agree.. I call these locations my "Bug Out" bases.. I toss a spare lv 1 or 2 Pistol and some ammo.. some bandages and some bottles of water and canned food from an airdrop for those "Just incase" I need to bug out moments. The 50 some odd Dukes i'd get for selling them are not worth the security of having even the basics after a collapse.

 

[Crater Creator]

Regarding farming, I believe it can’t be balanced by just changing some numbers. The math doesn’t work out.

Under the current system, crops grow exponentially. That’s in opposition to a progressive learning curve, where things start easier and get harder over time. No matter how you adjust that exponential curve, it’s going to be too hard for players at the low end of the curve or too easy for players at the high end of the curve. You'll never find values for vegetables per stew or yield per plant that accommodate both ends of the spectrum.

Now, you can dismiss the problem by concluding that you shouldn't bother fixing it because food isn't a big part of the game, or that experienced players are just too good to be worth balancing the game for them. But I would point out that other parts of the game do have a balanced progression curve, namely the game stage and heat systems. These systems already accommodate all kinds of players well, from the 10 hour player to the 1,000 hour player, by scaling the zombie threat based on how successful you’ve been.

Farming could draw inspiration from these systems to have its own progression curve. What's critical is that there be some mechanism whereby the more plants on your farm, the more challenge you're given. This could take many forms. I would favor a system directly analogous to the above, where rabbits and deer attack your crops, and their number and frequency is related to the number of plants making 'heat' in a chunk.

Most of the pieces for that, both art and code, you already have. And that's good in part because it means there's gameplay there you already have, too. I.e. there would already be different ways to counter animals attacking your crops. Whereas if crops randomly die for no reason, what does the player do about these random failures? Buy a perk? Engage in some new farm-specific gameplay you have to code? Nah. Just lean on the tower defense, traps, gunplay etc. you already have.

But again, I'm not attached to animals eating crops in particular. I'm just looking for some way that a bigger farm is harder than a smaller farm.

 

[Dark_Corvid]

@Madmole

Thinking of interesting decisions, what about recieving a large amount of acid, say 4 or 5, for scrapping a battery, along with the current lead of course.

Batteries are very valuable but it's possible to be in a situation where the player is lucky enough to find a battery or two and no acid.

 

[Crater Creator]

I have to say I disagree with this.
I always build a "oh crap I died" outpost somewhere. Not too close to my base, but not too far away from it either. In this little outpost I keep a small supply of basic "re-stocking" materials, that I add to as my game progresses. At first, it might only be a few cans of food, bandages and a club/axe etc, but as I progress, it's stocked with an increasingly good supply or "rebuild materials".

Players should, I think, have to think about dying during the horde, and plan for that contingency accordingly.

I've said it before, but I find that planning for what I should do after my own character dies, at least in a first person survival game, creates a disconnect. It takes me out of the game.

This game is... weird about what happens after the player character dies on horde night. You don't see other games where, under default rules, you respawn empty handed while a long battle continues. Other games handle death in the usual ways, which for illustration I categorize as Half-Life style (rewind time to when the PC was still alive), Team Fortress style (respawn immediately with stuff), or Counter-Strike style (spectate until the 'round' has finished).

 

[Damocles]

I love the idea of food scarceness and being forced to eat bad food at certain times of the game, forcing you to build up a collection of meds to counteract the bad food, find different herbs, have better hygiene and fridges.

This is also why I think an added 'morale' meter would be great to add to the game (I know, maybe version 2 of the game). Bad food or always the same food can lower it (to a certain level). Too much of any one task can lower it (digging all day doesn't sound fun). So it's not just trying to survive, it's trying to survive in as human way as possible.

Maybe some kind of "food variation morale bonus", that is calculated by the game, and indicated in the UI before eating the food, like

"Stew: +10 morale", "Bacon & Eggs: +0 morale", "Water: +0morale", "Beer: +20 morale"

If the player repeats eating the same food, the morale bonus drops to zero for that type. A timer will reset the morale bonus over time.

The morale could be acting similar to the old wellness system (boosting a stat), but degrading slowly over time.

Its increase by:

-food

-using luxory items at the players home (you could get a boost once a day by sitting on a sofa + drinking a beer)

-killing 10 zombies within 1 minute

-finding a high-value loot crate

-finishing a trader-quest

 

[Scyris]

I've said it before, but I find that planning for what I should do after my own character dies, at least in a first person survival game, creates a disconnect. It takes me out of the game.
This game is... weird about what happens after the player character dies on horde night. You don't see other games where, under default rules, you respawn empty handed while a long battle continues. Other games handle death in the usual ways, which for illustration I categorize as Half-Life style (rewind time to when the PC was still alive), Team Fortress style (respawn immediately with stuff), or Counter-Strike style (spectate until the 'round' has finished).

Add a drop nothing on pve death and make it default? would solve the problem, currently you need to do it via mods unless running a server, as its currently not in the options. Could even set it to only apply during horde night hours 22:00 till 4:00 am, if having it always active is too much.

 

[Damocles]

Regarding farming, I believe it can’t be balanced by just changing some numbers. The math doesn’t work out.
Under the current system, crops grow exponentially. That’s in opposition to a progressive learning curve, where things start easier and get harder over time. No matter how you adjust that exponential curve, it’s going to be too hard for players at the low end of the curve or too easy for players at the high end of the curve. You'll never find values for vegetables per stew or yield per plant that accommodate both ends of the spectrum.

Now, you can dismiss the problem by concluding that you shouldn't bother fixing it because food isn't a big part of the game, or that experienced players are just too good to be worth balancing the game for them. But I would point out that other parts of the game do have a balanced progression curve, namely the game stage and heat systems. These systems already accommodate all kinds of players well, from the 10 hour player to the 1,000 hour player, by scaling the zombie threat based on how successful you’ve been.

Farming could draw inspiration from these systems to have its own progression curve. What's critical is that there be some mechanism whereby the more plants on your farm, the more challenge you're given. This could take many forms. I would favor a system directly analogous to the above, where rabbits and deer attack your crops, and their number and frequency is related to the number of plants making 'heat' in a chunk.

Most of the pieces for that, both art and code, you already have. And that's good in part because it means there's gameplay there you already have, too. I.e. there would already be different ways to counter animals attacking your crops. Whereas if crops randomly die for no reason, what does the player do about these random failures? Buy a perk? Engage in some new farm-specific gameplay you have to code? Nah. Just lean on the tower defense, traps, gunplay etc. you already have.

But again, I'm not attached to animals eating crops in particular. I'm just looking for some way that a bigger farm is harder than a smaller farm.

There is probably no way to nerf the output of farming for an experienced player. Any location-based threats can be avoided by smart base design. Forcing a personal time investment (like weeding) would be deemed as no fun by many. Higher stage players will always be able to create more output than can be consumed for that single player.

Hence some other limit, such as a variation bonus (bonus for making and consuming different dishes regularly) or the mentioned spoilage (requiring to cook up dishes on demand).

Or some type of "oft spoilage", such that a food gives more bonuses for 15 minutes after being cooked. (the player can not spam-cook, and live from the stockpile to receive the best bonuses)

 

[OzHawkeye]

I've said it before, but I find that planning for what I should do after my own character dies, at least in a first person survival game, creates a disconnect. It takes me out of the game.
This game is... weird about what happens after the player character dies on horde night. You don't see other games where, under default rules, you respawn empty handed while a long battle continues. Other games handle death in the usual ways, which for illustration I categorize as Half-Life style (rewind time to when the PC was still alive), Team Fortress style (respawn immediately with stuff), or Counter-Strike style (spectate until the 'round' has finished).

While, in IronMad mode, such a "oh crap" outpost would be redundant.

Given that, the way I play anyway, I do re-spawn (I try not to die, but I'm never going to play Ironman mode... hehe), an emergency outpost of some description makes sense to me.

Since the game (at least currently), has the player respawning after death, then I think the player ought to have to think about what they want to do after such a death. If you're playing Dead-Is-Dead, then that's easy, exit the game, delete the file, start again, but if you're not playing that way, then a go to shelter of some kind only makes sense to have I reckon.

 

[Roland]

Until they fix zombie speed it really is simple if you die during horde night.

1) Select spawn near bedroll

2) Run over close to your base and wait for the horde to run out of it to chase you.

3) Run 20-30 meters away from your base and wait. (They'll catch up)

4) Run 20-30 meters parallel to your base and wait.

5) Run to your backpack and re-equip and get back in your base.

6) Continue.

We. Are. Significantly. Faster. Than. The. Zombies.

Oh, in case you are playing Nightmare speed.... Run 40 meters instead but same routine.

 

[Odetta]

Until they fix zombie speed it really is simple if you die during horde night.
1) Select spawn near bedroll

2) Run over close to your base and wait for the horde to run out of it to chase you.

3) Run 20-30 meters away from your base and wait. (They'll catch up)

4) Run 20-30 meters parallel to your base and wait.

5) Run to your backpack and re-equip and get back in your base.

6) Continue.

We. Are. Significantly. Faster. Than. The. Zombies.

Oh, in case you are playing Nightmare speed.... Run 40 meters instead but same routine.

Mod Idea: On horde night you take damage if your not moving at a certain speed. So you have to drive a vehicle but zombies are only a fraction slower than a motorcycle. So you better not crash. Could be scary as all hell.

I think zombies are faster in 17.3 now. Haven't tested but I think it's the case from reading the patch notes.

A18 should make nightmare faster than the player. At least faster than if they are wearing any kind of armor.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Until they fix zombie speed it really is simple if you die during horde night.
1) Select spawn near bedroll

2) Run over close to your base and wait for the horde to run out of it to chase you.

3) Run 20-30 meters away from your base and wait. (They'll catch up)

4) Run 20-30 meters parallel to your base and wait.

5) Run to your backpack and re-equip and get back in your base.

6) Continue.

We. Are. Significantly. Faster. Than. The. Zombies.

Oh, in case you are playing Nightmare speed.... Run 40 meters instead but same routine.

My way is more fun (for me). ;-)

 

[DaVegaNL]

Aww, that's easy.
Kill a dinosaur. Bury it in mud. Wait 65 million years. Voila - hydrocarbons!

On Titan, it'd be even easier too.

Somebody called a petroleum geologist?

 

[Damocles]

Somebody called a petroleum geologist?

Ah, the “dirt people” (according to Sheldon)

 

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

Regarding farming, I believe it can’t be balanced by just changing some numbers. The math doesn’t work out.
Under the current system, crops grow exponentially. That’s in opposition to a progressive learning curve, where things start easier and get harder over time. No matter how you adjust that exponential curve, it’s going to be too hard for players at the low end of the curve or too easy for players at the high end of the curve. You'll never find values for vegetables per stew or yield per plant that accommodate both ends of the spectrum.

We don't need every threat/challenge in the game to follow the same difficulty curve.

There's nothing wrong with a model of:

• In the early game, the zombies are weak and getting enough food is the main challenge.
  
• In the mid game, you've "solved" the issue of food by farming; but now the zombies are much tougher and they are the main challenge.
• In the late game, food is no issue and you can fight off even a maximum strength zombie horde without a problem; but now you've come to the attention of bandits and they're the main challenge.

You can still have the overall difficulty increase as the game goes on, without trying to force things that were a challenge on day 1-3 to still be a challenge on day 101-103.

In fact, that's more interesting than simply trying to make everything get harder in parallel because it means that the game experience changes over the course of the game.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Why do we want to crap on farmers? I only farm to make meat stews. I get 500 eggs by looting nests and have hundreds of meat just killing every animal I see. There is tons of food at traders if I want it. I don't see the desire to crap on farmers, food is easy to get in every other way.

Hence the need to introduce food spoilage as a mechanic.

- - - Updated - - -

If its so trivial, how come everyone was crying about it when we release A17? It wasn't trivial when you first started playing either. Its something you learn. We can't balance the game around your 2000 hours experience archtypes.

Lol dude, I have never in A16 or A17 made a farm. Like, at all.

I think a lot of crying was because you made a big oops-oops with max stamina degradation, not because of food.

 

[ZombieHorde]

Maybe some kind of "food variation morale bonus", that is calculated by the game, and indicated in the UI before eating the food, like"Stew: +10 morale", "Bacon & Eggs: +0 morale", "Water: +0morale", "Beer: +20 morale"

If the player repeats eating the same food, the morale bonus drops to zero for that type. A timer will reset the morale bonus over time.

The morale could be acting similar to the old wellness system (boosting a stat), but degrading slowly over time.

Its increase by:

-food

-using luxory items at the players home (you could get a boost once a day by sitting on a sofa + drinking a beer)

-killing 10 zombies within 1 minute

-finding a high-value loot crate

-finishing a trader-quest

Yes, I agree to all of those. I know it's not going to be on the radar for this game, but perhaps TFP's can take note for next game?

Other increases in morale:

-Being around your pet (if they are still going in), having a 'pat' function.

-Not being too hot or too cold for 24 hours

-Having comfortable things surrounding your land claim, like TV, couch, paintings, etc

-Not dying for a while

-Having a bed (and being around it for at least a while) instead of a sleeping bag

-Good hygiene (washing, not having rubbish piles or gore blocks (if they come back) around the house)

Decreases:

-Pet dies

-Sickness

-Horrible house

-Horrible weather

-Being underground too long

-Dying

-Doing the same thing too long (eg. grinding)

Functions of morale:

-Better aim

-Sickness cured faster

-Better immune system

-Slightly more stamina

-Better XP

-Slightly increased loot chances

-Better stealth

-Can detect traps easier

 

[The Gaffer]

Eventually I'd like to do dead is dead, and a version with lives. Maybe lives are bought with perks. So you waste perk points buying a spare life but its costing you valuable progression to have a spare life or two sitting there. Dead is Dead is pretty hardcore, I'd like some way to keep going but pay a steep price for it. 50k dukes, or lose 10 levels, etc.
Maybe at some point, we are tying hit points to your level now, so the death penalty might need some work.

I really do like this idea, having to spend points for a spare life would be brutal but would bring back the dread of dying into the game

 

[DaVegaNL]

I got your back.

Yeah that's what I'm scared of!