PC A21 is... definately better... but...

I started out in a very small town (about half seemed to be burnt out buildings / POI).  There are a few industrial POIs (one gas station, the lowest tier crack a book).

I had a forge by Day 4.  Day 28 horde is behind me and I am setting up a temporary base in a city 2 km away (so I don't have to constantly travel back and forth each day) so I can start doing that trader's missions to go up.  Prior to the move, I just used my starting location trader (even though he sent me to 3 others that were next to cities and in snow / desert biomes).

In my starter base, I have the forge, workstation, cement mixer, and chemistry station, all unlocked by what I looted in the starting city and doing the trader missions with the trader in this location.  No double looting (only if I chose a mission where it sent me to a POI I already did the mission on, but that was typically a higher tier infestation mission).

I have perked into lockpicks and advanced engineering, but only the first perk level and similar to what I did in Alpha 20 (also note, I removed recipe unlocks in A20 so everything was schematic only so it was for the benefits of those levels, not recipe unlocks).  So that did boost my chances for those magazines to drop, but I also perked into the first level of salvage operations and miner 69 so the perk advantage of finding those magazines pretty much drop away within the first week.

Is it slower progression compared to my first run (at B313) where I was next to a large city?  Of course it is.  The previous run had mailboxes / news stands / crack a book stores / lots of commercial  and industrial POIs in it.  However, if I was worried about the rate of progression, I could have easily moved to the second trader location once I completed the first tier of trader missions at my starting location.

 
At the moment it seems to me that the loot-bonus from perks is a bad design for all the magazines that everyone needs. Especially Forge ahead, but a lot of the utility mags as well, like the electricity, vehicle and farming books. The disadvantages have been mentioned already, a need to invest in those perks and no way to not get the loot-bonus when you invest into a perk for other reasons than wanting to craft.

Sure, for a single player practically a lot of perks are must-haves at perk level 1. And they could all be viewed as part of the selection you have for ANY specialization.

But there are many and to only be selected because you want the loot bonus should not be the only reason to select a perk. Maybe what they did with the forge-ahead books, that two or more perks work would be nice. For example farming and cooking could build another pair.

What would work is if those magazines got the loot-bonus automatically and not through perks. What already DOES work is that you can just check out specific places and loot boxes to get more of some specific magazines.

Another fix would be to move the loot-bonus from perks to candy. You buy the builder-candy and you get a sixth sense for workstation-, electricity-, and traps-magazines for example.

 
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meganoth said:
What would work is if those magazines got the loot-bonus automatically and not through perks.
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Wouldn't that just be a matter of setting the number of books needed lower? Seeds already complete at 20 (30?) magazines, way lower than most other things.

 
theFlu said:
Wouldn't that just be a matter of setting the number of books needed lower? Seeds already complete at 20 (30?) magazines, way lower than most other things.
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Yes, but may be easier to explain to the "public" who is used to think there is no way to get mags without that bonus.

 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
@Roland That´s their idea of replayability? Having to slow down your progression yourself instead of having a good slow natural progression no matter how you play? Wow. That´s a new low.

Also doesn´t really work, at least for higher difficulties. You have to keep up with your gamestage. Basically impossible in MP Coop to choose slow progression as you get rads on day 8 (Default settings besides difficulty). Or are you now telling me that we need to die more often to keep progression slow?
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This is just another gross exaggeration and simply not true. As I mentioned I play on Insane Difficulty and was in no way forced one way or the other on my progression. I chose to look for a city early to be in a better spot for trader quest variety and this caused me to progress much quicker both in my skills but also gamestage and I can assure you even with that boosted gamestage there was certainly not radiated zombies on day 8 let alone only a couple of ferals.

Reading through this thread let me know that a lot of people are bad at the game, bad at reading or both. As a few scholars pointed out the game does in fact let you know what perks increase the chances for Forge Ahead magazines. Could this have been easier to find in the text? Sure, but it does exist. I'm also not here to flat out defend the new magazine progression system. It is a massive step in the right direction and could be improved with some balancing but overall it functions correctly. With that being said I can't think of a single reason why LBD isn't a better way of doing the exact same thing especially since this form does exactly what people were worried about which is it completely screws over the players who just wanna sit around mining and building. Also Roland's response was *chef's kiss*

My personal experience with this system so far was taking a slower approach to the progression admittedly because I didn't bother reading the perks/magazine pages prior to just jumping into the skills I felt like playing due to being on Insane difficulty. To me my combat and survival perks felt more necessary than workstations and vehicles. With that being sad I still managed to get them relatively quick once I decided I needed them without putting points into Advanced Engineering or Lockpicking. I did enough trader quests to get a bicycle and rode around town to town looting every mailbox, newspaper stand and broken workstation I could find. I never felt gatekept on getting what I wanted throughout my playthrough as you can repeat tier 1 quests for book bundles also or tier 2 quests for more than enough forged steel to get through the early game. 

 
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@IrishManJMo Try that again with a group of 5 and a way faster growing gamestage than in SP. We had rads. On day 8. And demos on day 21. You have to progress. Fast. And ofc everyone could do their own quest alone to easily keep up, but that´s not the effin point of playing MP Coop.

In A20 that wasn´t the case. Rads seem to come way earlier and we also never reached demos that early wich is due to the new formula for group gamestage i guess. 

And to mention it again: The game should be responsible for a steady slow curve in progression and not my playstyle.

 
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meganoth said:
What would work is if those magazines got the loot-bonus automatically and not through perks. What already DOES work is that you can just check out specific places and loot boxes to get more of some specific magazines.

Another fix would be to move the loot-bonus from perks to candy. You buy the builder-candy and you get a sixth sense for workstation-, electricity-, and traps-magazines for example.
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It seems like the magazine system was halfway based on the schematic system that's utilized in the Undead Legacy overhaul mod. The biggest difference between the two is that in Vanilla we use perk points to influence RNG, which is still just a game of chance, but in UL there is also a Research Table workstation so that you can use research tech acquired from scrapped schematics to learn other recipes. 

So I have a question, and if you don't have the answer that's alright. But my question is this: Is the dev team negatively disposed to the idea of a research system that allows players to focus in on specific crafting skill trees? 

I remember reading a mod post stating that changes happen iteratively for a reason, so I know an additional system like this wouldn't be likely to appear within a week. I'm just curious if that's an idea you might have heard in any of the interactions you might've had with the dev team.

 
I'm with OP. Played three maps since A21 and in all three, I didn't have a Forge within 7 days. In one, I didn't have a Dew Collector within 7 days, either. I don't mind "slower progression", but I do dislike that there's no RNG proofing at all with so many things locked behind the workbench. It'd be something else if there was a lower level work bench or if some things could be done without it.

Like compare the Chemistry Station vs the Campfire. The Chemistry Station is needed for really advanced stuff, but you an make First Aid Bandages without one, and even Antibiotics, with the cost being they require more materials at the Campfire.

There needs to be a lower level Workbench/Forge if the normal ones are going to take this long to get access to, and/or letting you craft some of the things on your person at a higher cost. Not having the Chem Station until later isn't as much an issue since you have an alternative if it takes you ages and RNG is against you getting one. Imagine, for example, if you could make Shotgun Shells and 9mm ammo without a Workbench (just from your inventory), but they cost more resources to do so. And likewise, if you were allowed to craft Tier 2 weapons and gear (the ones just above primitive, so the basic 9mm Handgun, sawed off Double Barrel shotgun, etc). Indeed, you can already do this with one weapon type in the game - the Wooden Bow and Iron Arrows already works with this premise (provided you can find Iron Arrowheads...). Once you unlock the Wooden Bow quality 1, you can make one right then and there provided you have the parts.

Maybe if other weapons and ammo worked that way - where the Tier 3 and up weapons and the AP and specialty ammos required a workbench but either the basic ones did not or required something like a ammo repacking kit that you could carry on your person or just outright craft from your inventory at a bit higher cost - then this wouldn't be an issue. Hell, country boys repack their own ammo pretty frequently, especially on shotguns. Shouldn't need a specialty item to get access to that.

 
pApA^LeGBa said:
In A20 that wasn´t the case. Rads seem to come way earlier and we also never reached demos that early wich is due to the new formula for group gamestage i guess. 
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Group gamestage (the one used for horde nights) was broken for POIs.  It was fixed in A21 which is probably why your feeling an increased difficulty.  Especially if you choose to go to a higher difficulty biome.

 
CapnCookie said:
It seems like the magazine system was halfway based on the schematic system that's utilized in the Undead Legacy overhaul mod. The biggest difference between the two is that in Vanilla we use perk points to influence RNG, which is still just a game of chance, but in UL there is also a Research Table workstation so that you can use research tech acquired from scrapped schematics to learn other recipes. 

So I have a question, and if you don't have the answer that's alright. But my question is this: Is the dev team negatively disposed to the idea of a research system that allows players to focus in on specific crafting skill trees? 

I remember reading a mod post stating that changes happen iteratively for a reason, so I know an additional system like this wouldn't be likely to appear within a week. I'm just curious if that's an idea you might have heard in any of the interactions you might've had with the dev team.
Click to expand...


I don't have any interactions with the dev team except by reading what they post on the forum. So I don't know the answer.

 
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