(A21-A20-A19) Oak's Pet Animals and Guards

[magejosh]

Yes, this is a very valid point. Actually, it is also the very first time it has been shared in this thread from what I recall.

When considering the best way to add the Turret Guards, there were a few things to consider:
- Keeping it server side only so that players didn't also have to download the mod by themselves.
- Using an entity class which allowed the Turret Guards to maintain their human identity and behavior.
- Balancing the benefit of having Turret Guards so that the unlimited ammo came with a trade off.

Adding code to keep the guards in their human state, but also allow them to receive ammo from a player, and possibly by association also needing to have their weapons repaired with use, is complex and demanding and doesn't appear to be within the realms of what can be done by xml coding alone. To do it effectively with third party code would remove the EAC option since many features were no longer following default values. This was not something Server Admin really wanted.

The balance this mod has now is:
- The Turret Guards cannot be healed.
- The Turret Guards shoot in limited individual bursts with a time delay between each shot.
- The player receives 0 XP for their kills. This is actually quite a big trade off.

The more Turret Guards or Animal Guards a player has the less chance to get that ultimate hit to receive final kill XP. That can seriously limit advancement, especially during a Horde Night. And even more so where players are in a Party and XP is reduced as the Party numbers increase.

I get what you're saying and for some players it is exactly what they want. Especially if the above balance points still do not equalise with the benefit.
One thing we can do to further reduce their benefit, is reduce the rate of fire even more. If this is something that you consider can be an alternative compromise for your own set-up, I can share instructions on how to do that.

One possible solution is to have them add a buff when they spawn to themselves with a timer that will kill them when it runs out. That simulates them going back to the trader to look for new employment as their contract is fulfilled.

That leaves the question of how to provide a means of continued employment. Which i know is something was being discussed in the NPCmod dev talks. 

I think this method of getting the guards though provides the mechanism for fulfilling that. So the quest that rewards the placeable guard spawning block, you can have it also reward another quest that requires you to gather an item dropped by the dead turret guard when it dies then return it to the trader. Reward for that quest is an item that is only acquirable by completing that quest, and that unique reward item lets you craft a new guard release quest note for the cost of buying one of the guards at the trader and that unique quest item as your ingredients. 

 

[Guest]

First of:
Love the mod, it's really nice and have been using it a lot and great work.
That being said......
I stumbled over a small thing or issue or what ever to call it...
After either killing the guys the game seams to keep thinking that they'r still there when they'r not, i'm not able to build or place anything els in that 1x2 area the AI's took up.
I do not no why this is happening and still after a server stop and start and with several relogs it's still happening.
I tested it in SP and it's happening there too.

Thank you for reporting this issue as these things can sometimes slip through and it's only through feedback that they come to light.

I could also replicate this issue in Single Player Nevezgane. I shall report it to the develop @oakraven.

I tested a guard from 2 guard types. Guards 1 - 8 which use an older spawning system, and Guards 9 - 12 which use a new spawning system as follows:

The two types were placed on top of a trailer. The left is the new type and the right is the old type.



The 2 guards were eliminated.



The older type of spawning guard accepts a block where the guard was. The new type of spawning guard does not for the two blocks they were stood.



Thank you for reporting, and we'll see what can be done to resolve it.

 

[Guest]

One possible solution is to have them add a buff when they spawn to themselves with a timer that will kill them when it runs out. That simulates them going back to the trader to look for new employment as their contract is fulfilled.

That leaves the question of how to provide a means of continued employment. Which i know is something was being discussed in the NPCmod dev talks. 

I think this method of getting the guards though provides the mechanism for fulfilling that. So the quest that rewards the placeable guard spawning block, you can have it also reward another quest that requires you to gather an item dropped by the dead turret guard when it dies then return it to the trader. Reward for that quest is an item that is only acquirable by completing that quest, and that unique reward item lets you craft a new guard release quest note for the cost of buying one of the guards at the trader and that unique quest item as your ingredients. 

The current setup has only added the guards to Air Supply Drop loot and not through any other means. At 72 hour drops and players competing to access the resources, and also with them being set to medLow probability, the Turret Guards could be quite a novelty on a server. With periodic loss, they were being replaced but not really being added to unless they were setup hidden away and in relative safety. The concept was temporary mercenaries.

The reality though is typically, greater than 100% loot chance, 24 hour drops of which they sometimes come in 3's, and some Server Admin further adding them to other loot groups which soon mounts up to be quite an army.

 

[magejosh]

The current setup has only added the guards to Air Supply Drop loot and not through any other means. At 72 hour drops and players competing to access the resources, and also with them being set to medLow probability, the Turret Guards could be quite a novelty on a server. With periodic loss, they were being replaced but not really being added to unless they were setup hidden away and in relative safety. The concept was temporary mercenaries.

The reality though is typically, greater than 100% loot chance, 24 hour drops of which they sometimes come in 3's, and some Server Admin further adding them to other loot groups which soon mounts up to be quite an army.

Yep, i see now that i added them to the trader groups along the guard animals. Forgot i'd done that. If i do that rehire buff anytime soon i'll share it over so you can use or not however you choose. 

Thank you for reporting this issue as these things can sometimes slip through and it's only through feedback that they come to light.

I could also replicate this issue in Single Player Nevezgane. I shall report it to the develop @oakraven.

I tested a guard from 2 guard types. Guards 1 - 8 which use an older spawning system, and Guards 9 - 12 which use a new spawning system as follows:

The two types were placed on top of a trailer. The left is the new type and the right is the old type.

View attachment 22716

The 2 guards were eliminated.

View attachment 22717

The older type of spawning guard accepts a block where the guard was. The new type of spawning guard does not for the two blocks they were stood.

View attachment 22718

Thank you for reporting, and we'll see what can be done to resolve it.

I had that issue in a19 when i turned trader protection off and made the server's community base trader bob's prefab. Put guards on his trailer roof and one died and then all kinds of errors began cropping up in that poi with a turret guard placed inside it.Figured it was an artifact of trader protection hardcode acting up. But that looks like the same kind of block i was spawning them onto. Maybe it's the block you're placing on as the issue?

 

[Guest]

Figured it was an artifact of trader protection hardcode acting up.

Correct!! Yes, regardless of the block, traders do not like these to be added at all.

 

[RoronoaDroagon]

Correct!! Yes, regardless of the block, traders do not like these to be added at all.

Is there a temporary fix so i can get those few blocks that they take up removed or something so i can use them again?
I got admin mode/console command available.

 

[Guest]

cntRetroFridgeVer1Closed

Is there a temporary fix so i can get those few blocks that they take up removed or something so i can use them again?
I got admin mode/console command available.

Here is a temporary fix.

Go to your blocks.xml

Change:

        <block name="TestGuardPlate">
            <property name="Extends" value="air" param1="CustomIcon"/>
            <property name="CreativeMode" value="None"/>
            <property name="MultiBlockDim" value="1,2,1"/>
            <property name="StabilitySupport" value="false"/>
        </block>

to

        <block name="TestGuardPlate">
            <property name="Extends" value="cntRetroFridgeVer1Closed" param1="CustomIcon"/>
            <property name="CreativeMode" value="None"/>
            <property name="MultiBlockDim" value="1,2,1"/>
            <property name="StabilitySupport" value="false"/>
        </block>

This changes the air to a tangible asset that can be destroyed. In this case a retro refrigerator.
It also cover the 1 block across and wide with the 2 blocks high.

I am just about to upload a full permanent fix as well with the new guards switched back to the older system.

 

[RoronoaDroagon]

Oh, okey, i'll just wait then, thanks though.
Appreciate it.

 

[Guest]

Here is an update to fix an issue as well as introduce a new spawning decoration for the Turret Guards.

https://github.com/arramus/Oaks-Pet-Animals-and-Guards-A20-2022Jan10

Changes are as follows:

1.

@RoronoaDroagon kindly reported an issue with the new spawning feature for the 4 new guards. This appears to be something that changed from A19 to A20 and didn't function as hoped. The new guards have been added to the older system which proved reliable, beyond the plates occasionally not being destroyed on uneven terrain. It appears we will have to live with that since other destructive methods can cause issues.

2.

All turret guards have been given a new texture for their spawn pad that matches the newer version. Just a cosmetic change.



3.

All Turret Guards see a Quest Marker drop through their body and sink to through the ground as they spawn. This reflects their quest completion status.







4.

The 'killall' Admin command used to kill all of the Turret Guards.



They are now protected from harm when a server admin needs to troubleshoot zombie issues but keep their Turret Guards safe.



As the blocks for the Turret Guards changed back to the older format, it is not recommended to change to the new upload unless you start a new World.

If you do decide to update without starting a new World, expect some of the new Guards to potentially change into other objects; especially Darkstardragon (Turret Guard 09) as this character required a slight name change in one part of the code.

Oh, okey, i'll just wait then, thanks though.
Appreciate it.

In your case, it may be best to try that suggestion first before you potentially upgrade because those airblocks will still be there even with the new update as the Turret Guards were already gone. If they cannot be removed, we can look for another solution as air blocks have been reported as a Vanilla bug from earlier A builds and it appears they still persist. Some mods/admin mods can delete them.

 

[RoronoaDroagon]

Hmmm, okey.
I'll try it out and see what happens.
It can be a vanilla bug, but that i'm not able to say much about.
I have tried some testing to figure out they'r range too since it's nothing hinting or stating anything about it.
And it ended up being inconclusive of sorts since the one guard nr. 7 that was placed on top of a 7 tall noob tower were firing shorter than the same guard on top of a 5 tall noob tower.

 

[Guest]

Hmmm, okey.
I'll try it out and see what happens.
It can be a vanilla bug, but that i'm not able to say much about.
I have tried some testing to figure out they'r range too since it's nothing hinting or stating anything about it.
And it ended up being inconclusive of sorts since the one guard nr. 7 that was placed on top of a 7 tall noob tower were firing shorter than the same guard on top of a 5 tall noob tower.

If the update isn't working out over the last version or the air blocks are causing big issues, let us know and we can look for another tool or method that can help with deleting the air blocks.

 

[RoronoaDroagon]

If the update isn't working out over the last version or the air blocks are causing big issues, let us know and we can look for another tool or method that can help with deleting the air blocks.

Yupp, will do.

 

[RoronoaDroagon]

I'm not sure if i'm doing something wrong or if it's something in the mod/code that is doing this but is there a quantity or local quantity debuff on the human guards?
Like for instance that they can't be to close to each other or can't have to many of them or something like that?

 

[Guest]

I'm not sure if i'm doing something wrong or if it's something in the mod/code that is doing this but is there a quantity or local quantity debuff on the human guards?
Like for instance that they can't be to close to each other or can't have to many of them or something like that?

Here are 2 examples of what can be expected when placing guards closely together.

In this scenario they have been placed from right to left from front to back.

They take well to being in front or behind of another guard but do not like to be beside each other when spawning.

There are no limitations or features which would restrict them spawning side to side.


In this scenario, they have been placed behind each other.

Their ability to spawn is much more stable. I purposely stood close to the first spawn block area to show how things near to them can restrict spawning. For the remainder of the line I was always a coupe of blocks away. 



While there are no limitations set, they can be finicky. It is best to line them up all as if they were behind each other rather than beside each other and allow them to rotate once a threat is within range. It is possible their shoulders are causing some collision issues for their neighboring guards. This is actually an issue we see when placing Vanilla zombies in Prefabs. They will comfortably line up but do not like the side by side placement either and one of them may not spawn. It is not as noticeable as the Turret Guards though.

 

[Guest]

And if things could get more finicky.

The guards which aren't spawning in the conger lines were placed from the front so a guard was placed behind them.

The guards which are spawning well in the conger line were placed from the back so a guard was placed in front of them.



Based on those scenarios, spawning stability when they are next to each other appears to be better when:

- They are placed from the back facing forwards with the next guard placed in front of them.

But  that was certainly not the case on top of the trailer because I worked from front to back. However, that was on the previous load out.

It is always possible there are also slight subtleties in each load out and also server syncing can effect placement collision as time goes by.
It is hard to give a definitive answer when the results can vary so much.

 

[Guest]

A third load out.

It remained consistent for back to front placement on this occasion.

 

[Ganeshakw]

Yes, this is a very valid point. Actually, it is also the very first time it has been shared in this thread from what I recall.

When considering the best way to add the Turret Guards, there were a few things to consider:
- Keeping it server side only so that players didn't also have to download the mod by themselves.
- Using an entity class which allowed the Turret Guards to maintain their human identity and behavior.
- Balancing the benefit of having Turret Guards so that the unlimited ammo came with a trade off.

Adding code to keep the guards in their human state, but also allow them to receive ammo from a player, and possibly by association also needing to have their weapons repaired with use, is complex and demanding and doesn't appear to be within the realms of what can be done by xml coding alone. To do it effectively with third party code would remove the EAC option since many features were no longer following default values. This was not something Server Admin really wanted.

The balance this mod has now is:
- The Turret Guards cannot be healed.
- The Turret Guards shoot in limited individual bursts with a time delay between each shot.
- The player receives 0 XP for their kills. This is actually quite a big trade off.

The more Turret Guards or Animal Guards a player has the less chance to get that ultimate hit to receive final kill XP. That can seriously limit advancement, especially during a Horde Night. And even more so where players are in a Party and XP is reduced as the Party numbers increase.

I get what you're saying and for some players it is exactly what they want. Especially if the above balance points still do not equalise with the benefit.
One thing we can do to further reduce their benefit, is reduce the rate of fire even more. If this is something that you consider can be an alternative compromise for your own set-up, I can share instructions on how to do that.

Thanks for responding. I can see the limitations and get that its a very difficult task to achieve. Keep up the good work.

 

[RoronoaDroagon]

A third load out.

It remained consistent for back to front placement on this occasion.

View attachment 22792

Thanks for the explanations.

That makes what i experienced make no sense what so ever.
For when i placed then they had several blocks around them free, 2 or 3 blocks back and 1 or 2 block left or right.
Hopefully a server restart or replacing them would fix it.

I have placed new ones today and they got 7 blocks in between each other and they'r working as they should/intend too.

 

[NovenaNovena]

It was working the first day i put it. But the next session we played, everything despawned. All the summoned pets, guards, everything disappeared after maybe an autosave. I am playing on a multiplayer random generated world with friends. Cheats are off so we got the pets from supply drops and trader. Everything just randomly disappeared idk why. Any solutions for this?

 

[Guest]

If this was a consistent and repeatable issue, it would be easier to troubleshoot and consider a solution. It certainly appears to be linked to a server restart, but there is nothing that stands out to point to any particular restart.

One server where this happened enough to be an issue requested players to limit the amount of guards and pets per person. Reducing the overall amount could retain them longer, but it was not a totally perfect solution. In the end, this server simply increased air drops to every 24 hours to ensure it was easier for players to replace any losses.