PC a21.1 b6 cloth cost increase

[meganoth]

Well maybe they will tweak it, but more likely, it will just be replaced by something we all hate even more in A22 and we'll all reminisce about the "good old days when you got recipes from magazines"

Tongue in cheek comment? Or do you seriously think that?

Despite the claims of TFP overhauling their game each new alpha the only whole system that was immediately replaced again in the next alpha was the perk system of A17 (to my knowledge). And no, even though replacing the crafting recipe system in A21 made some changes necessary in perks, the perk SYSTEM was not changed at all. 

 

[RipClaw]

I bet if the looters of any MP group just keep the cloth they find (by wrenching beds or in cupboards or by scraping clothes) then they can easily support the same amount of "homies" without going out of their way.

Wrenching beds doesn't really get you much cloth. Maybe 3 or 4 cloth. That was apparently not increased. The best source of cloth is scrapping clothing. A visit in a Savage Country will get you about 3000 cloth but it's a bit tedious because you only have 4 queue spots.

 

[Krougal]

Tongue in cheek comment? Or do you seriously think that?

Despite the claims of TFP overthrowing their system each new alpha the only whole system that was immediately replaced again in the next alpha was the perk system of A17 (to my knowledge). And no, even though replacing the crafting recipe system in A21 made some changes necessary in perks, the perk SYSTEM was not changed at all. 

Maybe a little of both. It does feel like they will toss a system instead of tweaking it regularly enough for it to be almost a meme, but perhaps you are right since I can't think of anything else at the moment. You're right about the perk system though, it has been pretty consistent for a while.

Back to the topic, I think if they reduced the amount of duct tape per recipe (because it is @%$#ing ridiculous) and yes, even cut the pockets and other recipes in half it would make a lot of people less unhappy. Obviously reduce the amount from scrapping clothes by half too. They could then leave the stack size and the amount we get from scrapping curtains and the like and it would all feel a little more balanced. I mean I also have the acquisitiveness of a magpie so even trying to not gather cloth, I still wind up bringing it home, maybe not everyone is still overflowing with cloth. 

Wrenching beds doesn't really get you much cloth. Maybe 3 or 4 cloth. That was apparently not increased. The best source of cloth is scrapping clothing. A visit in a Savage Country will get you about 3000 cloth but it's a bit tedious because you only have 4 queue spots.

Very!

 

[meganoth]

Wrenching beds doesn't really get you much cloth. Maybe 3 or 4 cloth. That was apparently not increased. The best source of cloth is scrapping clothing. A visit in a Savage Country will get you about 3000 cloth but it's a bit tedious because you only have 4 queue spots.

My list was incomplete, but not exclusive to the best sources. Our wrench guy usually wrenches most beds in early game for the springs and pipes anyways, so this is just one of the many sources where cloth comes in all the time. When I went through the hotel (I was one of the two collecting cloth in my story above) I just used the axe. My result from the hotel was only upwards of 500 cloth by the way.

What do you mean with queue spots? The concurrent jobs in your backpack crafting queue? How is that a limit with cloth?

 

[theFlu]

How is that a limit with cloth?

Scrapping things takes time based on the resources gained, cloth yield got increased 10x => scrapping time got increased 10x. It's something like half a minute a piece now.

 

[RipClaw]

What do you mean with queue spots? The concurrent jobs in your backpack crafting queue? How is that a limit with cloth?

Since clothes do not stack, your inventory will be full pretty quickly. Then the scrapping begins. You queue up 4 items for scrapping and wait until the first one is done, then scrape again and wait again.

 

[Krougal]

Since clothes do not stack, your inventory will be full pretty quickly. Then the scrapping begins. You queue up 4 items for scrapping and wait until the first one is done, then scrape again and wait again.

Yeah, I start scrapping as I am looting and constantly trying to keep the queue full and my inventory not, but it is very micromanagement intensive and time-consuming (so not fun at all). But like I said, it's something to do once or twice per game and then never again.

 

[Lasher]

Shhhhhhh... did you not know that this once again makes the game more "Challenging"?

No honest.

It does.

No really...

 

[meganoth]

Scrapping things takes time based on the resources gained, cloth yield got increased 10x => scrapping time got increased 10x. It's something like half a minute a piece now.

Nice, didn't notice. Ok, I would guess this is an unintended consequence of the change. Though I don't know if they will ever fix it, in a normal playthrough I would assume one would seldomly hit the limit because of clothes overload.

 

[Krougal]

Nice, didn't notice. Ok, I would guess this is an unintended consequence of the change. Though I don't know if they will ever fix it, in a normal playthrough I would assume one would seldomly hit the limit because of clothes overload.

Well, and that would be another plus if they cut the cloth in half. Half the salvage time for clothes too.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Magazines are kind of random. I had a start where i couldn´t get 10 cooking magazines until day 5. I went from house to house, looted every POI i knew that had shamway boxes during those 5 days. And i had 1 point into masterchef from the start. (That was SP)

Also had it that we weren´t able to craft a chemstation before we got demos on day 21 despite 2 people having points into the skill and were constantly looting  POI´s.

Magazines do work generally but randomness regarding skills is a bad idea imo. But again it´s more of a gameplay issue, hunting for magazines before ferals/rad/demos show up. You can´t pass a mailbox or magazine box it dominates your playing along with looking for water.

 

[theFlu]

Ok, I would assume this is an unintended consequence of the change.

Could be, but for now the consequences of the changes they've made are:

- Clothing is the easiest source of cloth, other sources were left untouched, thus left behind (I haven't checked farming thou..). But the scrapping required is now tedious.

- Multiplayer games are now way more limited on cloth compared to SP.

Might be intended, might not. I'm not one to guess. It does look like it isn't really thought through though, with the incremental changes, but that's been the dev cycle in many places here..

 

[Krougal]

Could be, but for now the consequences of the changes they've made are:

- Clothing is the easiest source of cloth, other sources were left untouched, thus left behind (I haven't checked farming thou..). But the scrapping required is now tedious.

- Multiplayer games are now way more limited on cloth compared to SP.

Might be intended, might not. I'm not one to guess. It does look like it isn't really thought through though, with the incremental changes, but that's been the dev cycle in many places here..

My gut is they were trying this out, and other resources will likely follow this pattern in the future. I mean some of it would be welcomed, I don't even use feathers, and they really aren't worth bothering with selling past early game, but yet I am always on the lookout for eggs and so I have to constantly throw out feathers. There are a few other resources that just seem to accumulate too much of with no good use for. Hopefully they tweak it a bit. I still think overall it was a good change, but the numbers need some adjustment. That is part of the problem around here too, we as a community tend to just @%$# that we hate some change but if we all said "hey, I think this is good but tone it down a little" maybe we'd get better results.

 

[RipClaw]

Magazines are kind of random. I had a start where i couldn´t get 10 cooking magazines until day 5. I went from house to house, looted every POI i knew that had shamway boxes during those 5 days. And i had 1 point into masterchef from the start. (That was SP)

Also had it that we weren´t able to craft a chemstation before we got demos on day 21 despite 2 people having points into the skill and were constantly looting  POI´s.

The magazines are not completely random. It is a weighted randomness.

And there are a couple of things that are good to know.

The first is that you should never put points into Advanced Engeering if you want to collect Forge Ahead magazines. You have to put the points into Lockpicking. Sounds strange, but the reason is that Advanced Engineering also boosts other magazines, whereas Lockpicking only boosts Forge Ahead magazines.

The second is that you should not waste points in Physician or Living of the Land. These two magazines can be found in abundance anyway, even without a boost. And if possible, you should only put points into a few perks that boost skill magazines. I try never to have more than 4 perks active at the same time.

 

[Krougal]

The magazines are not completely random. It is a weighted randomness.

And there are a couple of things that are good to know.

The first is that you should never put points into Advanced Engeering if you want to collect Forge Ahead magazines. You have to put the points into Lockpicking. Sounds strange, but the reason is that Advanced Engineering also boosts other magazines, whereas Lockpicking only boosts Forge Ahead magazines.

The second is that you should not waste points in Physician or Living of the Land. These two magazines can be found in abundance anyway, even without a boost. And if possible, you should only put points into a few perks that boost skill magazines. I try never to have more than 4 perks active at the same time.

Farming especially since it caps out at like 22, would suck to keep getting the mag all the time Not to mention talk about tedious, to me farming is @%$#ing tedious. I throw down like 20 plots and use whatever seeds I find, try to remember to harvest & replant when I can. Put perk points into it? Pfffttt!

papa's experience with the cooking mags is wierd though, I currently have no points in chef, last game I think I put a point or 2 in late game, but cooking mags seem common (and really, they need to be), especially in the locations he searched.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I try never to have more than 4 perks active at the same time.

This to me is the biggest problem with the change.  The game actively punishes you now for having points in multiple skills. 

Farming especially since it caps out at like 22, would suck to keep getting the mag all the time Not to mention talk about tedious, to me farming is @%$#ing tedious. I throw down like 20 plots and use whatever seeds I find, try to remember to harvest & replant when I can. Put perk points into it? Pfffttt!

papa's experience with the cooking mags is wierd though, I currently have no points in chef, last game I think I put a point or 2 in late game, but cooking mags seem common (and really, they need to be), especially in the locations he searched.

Mags get dropped from the loot table unless you're looting something that can only drop specific types of magazines.  So after I max cooking, the only place I find cooking magazines any longer are food piles.  Similarly with medical magazines in medical piles and Forge Ahead in cement mixers.  Getting things like seed/cooking/medical magazines out of the loot table means you're more likely to find things that are useful in book cases.

 

[BFT2020]

Magazines never drop out of the loot tables.  When you find all of the magazines in a series, the bonus boost from Perks is reset to 0. 

Each magazine has an equal chance of being found in a container that has them unless you perk into one of the perks.  At that point, it adds a boost (usually from 20% to 100%) as you level up on the perks.

So if you perk once into living off the land, you have a 20% boost of finding seeds magazines.  So using a Shamway crate as an example, you have two magazines in there - seeds and cooking.  With no perks, you have an equal chance of getting either one of them.  If you perk into LoTL at the first level, you have a 1.2/2.2 chance of picking the seeds one while only a 1/2.2 chance of picking the cooking one.

Also, I don't think you are getting hit as hard as some people think if you spread your perks around.  A lot of the loot groups are setup to be specialized with magazines (so ranged weapons, melee weapons, etc.).   

For example:

• 1 Perk in shotguns, cooking, armor, adv engineering, miner69er
  
• 3 Perks into knives, handguns, and bows
  

• So shotguns, cooking, armor, electrician, traps, workstations, harvest tools, and repair tools are 1.2
  
• Knives, handguns, and bows are 1.6
  

In a shotgun messiah crate, you would have (assuming one of the choices ends up being the crafting magazine):

• 27.6% chance of finding a handgun magazine
  
• 20.7% chance of finding a shotgun magazine
  
• 17.2% chance of finding the other 3 magazines (rifles, machine guns, explosives)
  

In a container that draws all magazines from, you have the following (assuming one of the choices ends up being the crafting magazine):

• Level 3 perks:  6.1%
  
• Level 1 perks:  4.5%
  
• No Perks:  3.8%
  

So putting points into the perks moves the chances a little better for that crafting magazine, but you are not getting penalized greatly doing so.

The second is that you should not waste points in Physician or Living of the Land. These two magazines can be found in abundance anyway, even without a boost. And if possible, you should only put points into a few perks that boost skill magazines. I try never to have more than 4 perks active at the same time.

If the only reason a person is putting points into those perks is to get magazines faster, than true.

However, there are other benefits from those perks to spend points into:

• LoTL - reduction in crafting costs for farm plots and increase harvest yields
  
• Physician - instant cures of sprains, faster crafting in chemistry stations
  

The magazine find is a bonus part of the perks, but should never be considered as the primary reason to perk into them.  If that is the only reason you perk into those categories, then it will always seem to be a waste of a perk point.

 

[Krougal]

Magazines never drop out of the loot tables.  When you find all of the magazines in a series, the bonus boost from Perks is reset to 0. 

Each magazine has an equal chance of being found in a container that has them unless you perk into one of the perks.  At that point, it adds a boost (usually from 20% to 100%) as you level up on the perks.

However, there are other benefits from those perks to spend points into:

• LoTL - reduction in crafting costs for farm plots and increase harvest yields
  
• Physician - instant cures of sprains, faster crafting in chemistry stations
  

The magazine find is a bonus part of the perks, but should never be considered as the primary reason to perk into them.  If that is the only reason you perk into those categories, then it will always seem to be a waste of a perk point.

I didn't realize it was such a small adjustment, but it certainly adds up over time. 

The other benefit for physician is if you use the stun baton as your primary. 10% insta-kill is nothing to sneeze at, especially on higher difficulty, 20% dismember isn't too shabby either.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Magazines never drop out of the loot tables.  When you find all of the magazines in a series, the bonus boost from Perks is reset to 0.

You say that, but in several hundred hours of A21, I have yet to find a crafting magazine for a series I had completed outside of a loot container that specifically drops that magazine type.  It's one of the reasons I'm so happy to complete the cooking series, because I hate getting them from bookcases/book crates.  Heck, you never even find them in cupboards any longer after you complete the series, just out of food piles.

I'm not arguing what the xml says.  It's pretty clear.  And yet experience (and a decent amount of it) implies there must be something beyond the xml that effects the drop of magazines.  I can't recall ever getting a crafting magazine of a type I've completed from a bookcase or skill magazine bundle.

 

[The_Great_Sephiroth]

I've never had issues with cloth. I mean it sure seems super-rare these days, but even more rare is fuel. Not one single vehicle on the entire map gives fuel now, even with max skills from what I can tell. This means you have to get enough crafting skill books to make it, then enough mining skill to mine enough to make it worthwhile, and once all the oil shale is gone, you do what? Chunk reset is the only option in my book now, but I kind of like that concept anyway.

I'd like to see some amount of fuel from cars again, but not so much that I have an entire vault full of it like before. Springs seem to be rare. Pipes are more on the rare side of things now. Antibiotics? Jesus, those are super-duper-insane-o-rare! Oh and to make them you have to skill into medical a lot. Hope you play like a god and never get hit once by a zombie dog!

It's all a balancing act. We're chugging through it all and aside from the infection drugs seemingly being only allow mid-to-late game or gas being hard to get, it's all good. The devs will see the feedback and do their thing until it's balanced.