PC A20 - Leveling is now pointless

[Varlak]

I think its because this game is meant to be played in a team. I play A20 on a private server with 5 friends and by day 19 we could craft every single item in game (well those that are cartable) beside one of the auto turret. We still miss much robotic part so we don't have drone yet, but we could craft those otherwise.

But we play as a team, so each of us focused on a different build and we reach 3 differents traders on every reset.

Otherwise we spend our days farming quest together // burnt biome.

That time we weren't lucky so we got a beaker only by day19 but we just really farmed one for 2 days (hospital rush in different cities).

And that shot we weren't lucky. in our previous game that bugged we were all set by night 14.

 

[gecko2015]

I think its because this game is meant to be played in a team.

I think this hit the nail on the head. I know some of my complaints come from pre-A19 era, but A20 just shows their move to more RNG which is a significant blow to us single-player folks. I only play single-player, no mods, and it's hilarious seeing some of the first replies on this thread defend RNG and say my complaints are not valid yet have the audacity to say, in the same sentence, that they have mods that allow them to craft uncraftable items. The irony is bitter-sweet.

In A19, yes you needed an AK schematic, but it's required parts were not RNG based. Now it's:

AK47 -> schematic RNG

"Oh cool, I can now create an AK47!"

Nope...you need 10 machine gun parts that can only be found by RNG....

*Maybe I'm mis-remembing the exact version before specific item parts were added. But my point stands.

Keep in mind, it isn't an issue just because a single item can't be crafted. It's an issue because almost EVERY. THING. in the game requires schematics and/or special parts now. When everything is accounted for, it's frustrating as crap being at mid-level trying to progress and it's like the game is doing everything possible to prevent you from progressing. So then you try to play by the game's own rules of what it wants you to do and you go to traders, do trader quests (and level them up), and loot specific stores. What are you rewarded with? 5 schematics, 4 of which you've already found 10 times before and one of which you didn't need or want.

Like you said, I can certainly see this being fine with a multiplayer server. But the NON-MODDED game's overall further direction towards RNG has turned single-player into 7 Days of RNG.

 

[POCKET951]

I think this hit the nail on the head. I know some of my complaints come from pre-A19 era, but A20 just shows their move to more RNG which is a significant blow to us single-player folks. I only play single-player, no mods, and it's hilarious seeing some of the first replies on this thread defend RNG and say my complaints are not valid yet have the audacity to say, in the same sentence, that they have mods that allow them to craft uncraftable items. The irony is bitter-sweet.

In A19, yes you needed an AK schematic, but it's required parts were not RNG based. Now it's:

AK47 -> schematic RNG

"Oh cool, I can now create an AK47!"

Nope...you need 10 machine gun parts that can only be found by RNG....

*Maybe I'm mis-remembing the exact version before specific item parts were added. But my point stands.

Keep in mind, it isn't an issue just because a single item can't be crafted. It's an issue because almost EVERY. THING. in the game requires schematics and/or special parts now. When everything is accounted for, it's frustrating as crap being at mid-level trying to progress and it's like the game is doing everything possible to prevent you from progressing. So then you try to play by the game's own rules of what it wants you to do and you go to traders, do trader quests (and level them up), and loot specific stores. What are you rewarded with? 5 schematics, 4 of which you've already found 10 times before and one of which you didn't need or want.

Like you said, I can certainly see this being fine with a multiplayer server. But the NON-MODDED game's overall further direction towards RNG has turned single-player into 7 Days of RNG.

Speaking of rng, a little digging reveals that certain schematics won't simply appear at all in the trader inventory. These schematics are entirely gated by loot rng.

I always viewed the trader as a semi reliable way to combat rng.

The devs are aware of this and are changing some things in 20.1, they are also looking at trader inventories 

 

[12pack]

They put in place a temporary "fix" due to too many POIs using always-lootable bookshelf blocks instead of the random "helper" blocks which will RNG toggle between lootable and not. So in the future, after a scrub of the bookstore-type POIs, what you'll get is fewer lootable shelves, but back to better odds of getting schematics in each one.

<lootcontainer id="136" count="1,2" size="6,2" sound_open="UseActions/open_garbage" sound_close="silencefiller" loot_quality_template="qualBaseTemplate">
    <item name="resourcePaper" count="2,8" prob="0.11"/>
    <item group="booksAllScaled"/>

    <item name="resourcePaper" count="2,8" prob="7.5"/><!-- temp fix for excessive use of lootable bookshelves instead of random placers -->
</lootcontainer>

that was the code in a19, they have different groups and containers now..

but i do remember commenting that line out once, and it was Books, Glorious Books...

 

[Roland]

but A20 just shows their move to more RNG which is a significant blow to us single-player folks.

I would agree completely for anyone who plans to play single player exactly once and then put the game away and move on. But if you like to restart and play through to the point you feel you have succeeded-- and do that multiple times then on one playthrough you'll have to make do without something and on the next you'll have to make do without something else. In one playthrough you'll be strong in one or two attributes and weak to mediocre in the rest and in the next playthrough that can shift if you make different choices.

It's not that the game is meant to be played as a team and single player is screwed. It is that it is meant to be played through multiple times and offer different experiences and challenges with variable weaknesses and strengths each time you play. 

In A19, yes you needed an AK schematic, but it's required parts were not RNG based. Now it's:

AK47 -> schematic RNG

"Oh cool, I can now create an AK47!"

Nope...you need 10 machine gun parts that can only be found by RNG....

*Maybe I'm mis-remembing the exact version before specific item parts were added. But my point stands.

You are misremembering. It was this way for sure in A19 and I believe it was also true in A18 but I can't remember for sure on that. At some point, Madmole changed things so that T2 and T3 schematics had to be looted or purchased at the trader. That was either A18 or A19. A17 was the change to the parts system we now have I believe or that may have even been A16. At any rate, there was no change in how weapons are crafted and how schematics work for A20. It works the same as it has for the last 1-2 years.

Keep in mind, it isn't an issue just because a single item can't be crafted. It's an issue because almost EVERY. THING. in the game requires schematics and/or special parts now. When everything is accounted for, it's frustrating as crap being at mid-level trying to progress and it's like the game is doing everything possible to prevent you from progressing. So then you try to play by the game's own rules of what it wants you to do and you go to traders, do trader quests (and level them up), and loot specific stores. What are you rewarded with? 5 schematics, 4 of which you've already found 10 times before and one of which you didn't need or want.

But this is the required sauce for survival games. Survival games are all about reacting and adapting to the events, bad fortunes, and circumstances the game throws at you. Maybe you want to go do a quest but then on the way a dog pack catches you in the open and while you live, you have a broken arm and an infection with no splint or antibiotics. Do you go for the quest anyway since that is what you wanted to do or do you change your plans to heal your conditions first? Its your choice and you can try it either way.  Same thing with wanting to perk into shotguns but all you find are machine gun schematics. You can choose to stick to shotguns or change your plans and go for machine guns since that is what you can craft. 

I know that some people are not going to like this type of design but that doesn't make it a bad design. What we have is a good design for replayability and survival style gameplay of making do with what you have and adapting to your circumstances and overcoming despite having areas of weakness. It can be improved for sure and the devs are constantly experimenting and fine tuning to find the sweet spot they hope to achieve by time the game goes gold.  

If this type of gameplay is not to your liking and you are playing SP then for goodness sake, set a fair price for yourself to enable the creative menu and purchase what you want. If you desire for the things that you want to play with to be guaranteed and deterministic and you are solo, then that is one of the purposes of the creative menu. Throw away 50,000 dukes and open the creative menu and grab the weapon  you want or the weapon parts you need to craft it if you want to do it that way. Then the game is deterministic and you aren't cheating because you earned it by spending those dukes. Make it as expensive as you need to not have it feel like you are just cheating it in.

 

[POCKET951]

I would agree completely for anyone who plans to play single player exactly once and then put the game away and move on. But if you like to restart and play through to the point you feel you have succeeded-- and do that multiple times then on one playthrough you'll have to make do without something and on the next you'll have to make do without something else. In one playthrough you'll be strong in one or two attributes and weak to mediocre in the rest and in the next playthrough that can shift if you make different choices.

It's not that the game is meant to be played as a team and single player is screwed. It is that it is meant to be played through multiple times and offer different experiences and challenges with variable weaknesses and strengths each time you play. 

You are misremembering. It was this way for sure in A19 and I believe it was also true in A18 but I can't remember for sure on that. At some point, Madmole changed things so that T2 and T3 schematics had to be looted or purchased at the trader. That was either A18 or A19. A17 was the change to the parts system we now have I believe or that may have even been A16. At any rate, there was no change in how weapons are crafted and how schematics work for A20. It works the same as it has for the last 1-2 years.

But this is the required sauce for survival games. Survival games are all about reacting and adapting to the events, bad fortunes, and circumstances the game throws at you. Maybe you want to go do a quest but then on the way a dog pack catches you in the open and while you live, you have a broken arm and an infection with no splint or antibiotics. Do you go for the quest anyway since that is what you wanted to do or do you change your plans to heal your conditions first? Its your choice and you can try it either way.  Same thing with wanting to perk into shotguns but all you find are machine gun schematics. You can choose to stick to shotguns or change your plans and go for machine guns since that is what you can craft. 

I know that some people are not going to like this type of design but that doesn't make it a bad design. What we have is a good design for replayability and survival style gameplay of making do with what you have and adapting to your circumstances and overcoming despite having areas of weakness. It can be improved for sure and the devs are constantly experimenting and fine tuning to find the sweet spot they hope to achieve by time the game goes gold.  

If this type of gameplay is not to your liking and you are playing SP then for goodness sake, set a fair price for yourself to enable the creative menu and purchase what you want. If you desire for the things that you want to play with to be guaranteed and deterministic and you are solo, then that is one of the purposes of the creative menu. Throw away 50,000 dukes and open the creative menu and grab the weapon  you want or the weapon parts you need to craft it if you want to do it that way. Then the game is deterministic and you aren't cheating because you earned it by spending those dukes. Make it as expensive as you need to not have it feel like you are just cheating it in.

I understand that's the way the game will be. But shouldn't it also be possible through nothing but sheer time and determination  that you eventually get almost everything(you want).

 

[Roland]

I understand that's the way the game will be. But shouldn't it also be possible through nothing but sheer time and determination  that you eventually get almost everything(you want).

I don't think so. But that's just my opinion. There are quite a few boardgames where you have a deck of 20 items or abilities that can be aquired during the game and during setup you shuffle that deck and pick only 5 random cards to be used in that playthrough. The very fact that you absolutely can't get all 20 items in any one single playthrough makes that game more replayable.

If it were up to me, one player would only ever get 3-5 tier 6 quality items in a 100 day playthrough they were so rare. Tier 5 would then be the true highest quality level for most things in the game with only a few special items being tier 6. But that's just my own opinion and I guess an example of at least one person who does like random items and being denied some things due to random factors and then making do without those things. I don't call it a @%$#ty game because I never found a beaker. I call it a game with a different feel from the last one I played.

 

[Urban Blackbear]

I don't think so. But that's just my opinion. There are quite a few boardgames where you have a deck of 20 items or abilities that can be aquired during the game and during setup you shuffle that deck and pick only 5 random cards to be used in that playthrough. The very fact that you absolutely can't get all 20 items in any one single playthrough makes that game more replayable.

If it were up to me, one player would only ever get 3-5 tier 6 quality items in a 100 day playthrough they were so rare. Tier 5 would then be the true highest quality level for most things in the game with only a few special items being tier 6. But that's just my own opinion and I guess an example of at least one person who does like random items and being denied some things due to random factors and then making do without those things. I don't call it a @%$#ty game because I never found a beaker. I call it a game with a different feel from the last one I played.

So you' prefer players to maybe never get a Q6 version of the weapons and armor they're specced into? Sounds absolutely frustrating to me. Not trying to bust your balls here but this Alpha is one of the worst I've played and the new RNG is a big reason for it. Simply put: I'm having less fun. It seems like the loot tables have been spread out over a larger range of loot/gamestages and that completely changes progression for a solo player like myself. More gates only serve to shut people out.

 

[Boidster]

that was the code in a19, they have different groups and containers now..

but i do remember commenting that line out once, and it was Books, Glorious Books...

Trusting me is always a crapshoot.  Too many damn 7D2D XML files open in Notepad++.

So it's interesting (and consistent with other A20 lootgroup changes) now.

<!-- *** Crackabook_Shelves -->
<lootgroup name="groupCrackabookShelves01">
    <item name="resourcePaper" count="1,5" loot_prob_template="high"/>
    <item group="booksAllScaled" loot_prob_template="low"/>
</lootgroup>

<lootgroup name="groupCrackabookShelves02">
    <item group="booksAllScaled"/>
</lootgroup>

<lootgroup name="groupCrackabookShelves" count="all">
    <item group="groupCrackabookShelves01" count="1"/>
    <item group="groupCrackabookShelves02" loot_prob_template="veryLow" force_prob="true"/>
</lootgroup>




If I read that correctly (remember - crapshoot!), here's how looting a Crack-A-Book shelf would work out. The count="all" for the parent group means, I think, that each sub-group is always rolled. However, the force_prob on the second sub-group means, I think, that the .05 probability for 'veryLow' is used. That is, normally count="all" would mean at least some loot from every sub-group would be given. In this case, though, the groupCrackabookShelves02 is forced to keep its .05 (5%) chance.



So it works out to about a 25% chance of finding a book or schematic in a Crackabook shelf (not the bookcases you find in libraries/offices/houses - the store shelves). I used the special vanilla POI 000_loot_new_test (which has like 40x every container in the game in it) to loot 40 shelves and I got 9 books/schematics. So that seems to line up pretty well.

Bookcases are different, and simpler, and more lucrative. Again we have count="all" which I think means every group is checked, but the 2nd and 3rd sub-group also have force_prob="true" so they are forced to use the 'med' and 'low' probabilities.

<!-- *** Bookcase_Loot -->
<lootgroup name="groupBookcase" count="all">
    <item name="resourcePaper" count="1,5"/>
    <item group="booksAllScaled" loot_prob_template="med" force_prob="true"/>
    <item group="booksAllScaled" loot_prob_template="low" force_prob="true"/>
</lootgroup>






Mathing on that a bit results in the chance of at least one book = 60%. I looted 40 bookcases and got 27 books (67.5% - I guess I was lucky), including 4 instances of 2 books found in one bookcase (exactly the 10% expected occurrence of that).

Setting aside all the math and the crapshoot on my reliability - just looting all the Crack-A-Book shelves vs. bookcases in the 000_loot_new_test POI showed me that if I want to find books/schematics, I should prioritize bookcases in homes & offices, not necessarily Crack-A-Book stores. The stores have the benefit of a dense group of lootables, but the bookcases are more lucrative.

It seems like the loot tables have been spread out over a larger range of loot/gamestages and that completely changes progression for a solo player like myself. More gates only serve to shut people out.

In a different thread, schwanz9000 acknowledged the wobblyness of the current loot probabilities and is working on a balancing/fixing pass through them. There are leftovers from previous releases which are kind mucking things up. Alpha software, amirite? 

 

[DiegoLBC1]

Do you know what is funny? I read these "problems" around A20, but it looks like they're talking about A19, because I'm still playing on an A19 server and I'm having trouble finding certain things. 

 

[Urban Blackbear]

Do you know what is funny? I read these "problems" around A20, but it looks like they're talking about A19, because I'm still playing on an A19 server and I'm having trouble finding certain things. 

I honestly haven't had too much of an issue with that. I did have a bit of trouble finding a crucible but Trader Rekt had one in his secret stash for me. I was rolling in dukes at that point from running quests so the 11kish didn't even make me blink. I'm on day 75 (took a few weeks break to check some other games out) and I have all the workstations and workstation tools to go in them. My main issue with this Alpha is being on day 75 and feeling like I'm on day 20 still. If it wasn't for quest rewards I wouldn't have any good gear at all because I'm just not getting anything but double barrel shotguns and pipe rifles out in the wild. Which is a shame because I have more ammo than I can shoot before the Reaper catches me finally.

 

[Pernicious]

So you' prefer players to maybe never get a Q6 version of the weapons and armor they're specced into? Sounds absolutely frustrating to me. 

There was a dagger in World of Warcraft that was meant to have a 0.1% drop rate that was considered a twink weapon. (Over powered for its level) For almost 2 years there were groups who ran the dungeon hoping it would drop. It sold on the Auction house for insane sums of money. It sold on ebay for up to $300 real dollars. I never got one, neither did any of my friends. WoW remained the most popular MMO for another decade despite the frustrations, despite the whining of players.

In life many of us aspire to be rich, famous, have an attractive spouse, the accolades of our peers, and to make a difference in this world. Few of us ever obtain even one of those, let alone all. But to co-opt the old joke "Despite the high cost of living, it remains a popular option".

Maybe it's a generational thing. I'm on the border of X and Y, but they keep telling me Younger Y and Millenial all expect to join a company and be at the top in 5 years. And even articles are written why entire generations of people are unhappy: https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-unhappy.html

(That's worth the read whether you agree with me or not by the way. I expect to be cancelled posting it in this day and age, but oh well).

 

[Urban Blackbear]

There was a dagger in World of Warcraft that was meant to have a 0.1% drop rate that was considered a twink weapon. (Over powered for its level) For almost 2 years there were groups who ran the dungeon hoping it would drop. It sold on the Auction house for insane sums of money. It sold on ebay for up to $300 real dollars. I never got one, neither did any of my friends. WoW remained the most popular MMO for another decade despite the frustrations, despite the whining of players.

In life many of us aspire to be rich, famous, have an attractive spouse, the accolades of our peers, and to make a difference in this world. Few of us ever obtain even one of those, let alone all. But to co-opt the old joke "Despite the high cost of living, it remains a popular option".

Maybe it's a generational thing. I'm on the border of X and Y, but they keep telling me Younger Y and Millenial all expect to join a company and be at the top in 5 years. And even articles are written why entire generations of people are unhappy: https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are-unhappy.html

(That's worth the read whether you agree with me or not by the way. I expect to be cancelled posting it in this day and age, but oh well).

I'm 43. My first gaming experience was an Atari 2600 and my first console that I owned was an NES that I mowed lawns all summer for because we were poor and that was the only way I was ever seeing one. They were the same price as consoles are today. In 1987.

 

[Pernicious]

I'm 43. My first gaming experience was an Atari 2600 and my first console that I owned was an NES that I mowed lawns all summer for because we were poor and that was the only way I was ever seeing one. They were the same price as consoles are today. In 1987.

Welcome to the club. 43 for another few weeks.

 

[Urban Blackbear]

Welcome to the club. 43 for another few weeks.

I already have a club. And if you insinuate that I'm entitled and then reference MMOs again I'll use it.

 

[Pernicious]

I already have a club. And if you insinuate that I'm entitled and then reference MMOs again I'll use it.

Wait. 7d2d is a MMO too right? Haven't tried it yet, but heard there were absolutely no problems with having 100k users on my server!  eep:

 

[DiegoLBC1]

Welcome to the club. 43 for another few weeks.

I'm coming. 38 XD

My first gaming experience was an Atari 2600 and my first console that I owned was an NES that I mowed lawns all summer for because we were poor and that was the only way I was ever seeing one. They were the same price as consoles are today. In 1987.

I know how you feel. My first console was an Xbox 360 that I acquired in 2015.  All pre-Xbox (Atari, NES and so on) I met (and played) at friends house

 

[Roland]

So you' prefer players to maybe never get a Q6 version of the weapons and armor they're specced into? Sounds absolutely frustrating to me. 

Yeah, I'll double down on my opinion and say, "absolutely". Tier 5 quality with 3 mods and fully perked is going to be plenty to be able to survive with against pretty much anything the game throws at you. And if you say, "but I'm playing Insane Nightmare Horde Night Daily 300% xp and Tier 5 is not enough to survive against that" then I'll just say you picked that setting to be challenged so...be challenged.

Tier 6 is supposed to be placeholder for legendary gear and legendary gear by its very nature is not something you and everyone else on your team are kitted out with completely. It's freaking LEGENDARY. Maybe in your lifetime you come across 3 or 4 pieces of legendary level stuff. If you find a legendary M60 but you perked all the way up shotguns and it bugs you so much then buy the elixyr that lets you respec and change up what you are doing. You played the whole first part of your game with shotguns and now you can play the rest until you feel done with a legendary M60. Sounds fun to me.

I'm not super bothered by it right now since Tier 6 is supposed to be a placeholder and old timers are used to running around all decked out in purple stuff-- but if the devs run out of time and change their minds and decide to just go with what we have right now instead of designing actual legendary tier gear then I absolutely would want them to make Tier 6 a lot more rare than it is even if it means you don't get a legendary version of the weapon you perked up to the top of the tree. And don't worry about my opinion anyway. The devs don't seem to share it since they obviously know how to make things like beakers and crucibles have legendary rarity and they've never applied that to purple gear-- so they must like to see lots of it in the game.

I'm 52. My first console was something that had Breakout and Pong preloaded on it. That's all you could play. There were no cartridges-- probably 1976 or 1977 if I remember correctly.

 

[Urban Blackbear]

@Roland I can respect that. Especially hearing the bit about Legendary weapons. In that case I would even agree that T5s are good enough. I would not have guessed that was the intent with them since they drop as much as the T5 stuff in the last few Alpha's. Even in the new Alpha I got a T6 Pipe Machinegun fairly early.

 

[Roland]

@Roland I can respect that. Especially hearing the bit about Legendary weapons. In that case I would even agree that T5s are good enough. I would not have guessed that was the intent with them since they drop as much as the T5 stuff in the last few Alpha's. Even in the new Alpha I got a T6 Pipe Machinegun fairly early.

My hope is that T6 will drop back down to be the top tier that is craftable and that they will have truly legendary gear that can only be found and that it is truly rare. I have no idea what is going to happen though in this regard since time is clearly running out if they want to get to gold before their 10 year anniversary hits...

If we do get legendary gear I want it to be so rare that people come here to brag about what they found and nobody believes them and when they show a screenshot to prove it everyone accuses them of faking the pic...