PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

jeromeN7 said:
@RolandIs the wood frame the only one left partially because it already took a lot of time to model all 1200 shapes for it? Because all wood frames now have 3D models? I'm not complaining about so many new shapes to work with, but I'd be nice to have frames for each upgrade tier. Just ideas, but if people really want it, perhaps we could get frames for cobblestone and concrete that are exactly the same model as the wood frames. I can see people biting the bullet and using wood frames, then grinding their teeth while they whack each block 6 times with a hammer, who knows...
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I can see those people scrounging some more until the find a nailgun 😁

 
dcsobral said:
Only works if picking up that block doesn't break structural integrity. If you need to take out all of the blocks being supported by one particular block to replace that one block, it won't work. Now, I'm used to upgrading everything from wood frames so this won't affect me, but I can definitely see issues building out of frames then replacing the frames with blocks of the desired material.
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I'm used to it as well. Was just sayin that to someone that said something about putting the frames down but we have 1200 blocks to go through to find that one odd shape to replace that frame. You don't have to go through the blocks in that case. Just copy block before picking frame up. But yes for those that either not used to wood frames and upgrading them or just don't like doing it that way I can see it being more I guess inconvenient for them. 

 
Jost Amman said:
Since apparently it's not like that, I guess you'd better be steady while placing concrete blocks, or you'll pay dearly your mistake!  :frusty:   :nod:
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Or perhaps you could upgrade just the critical ones that will make or break your structure and just place the rest. The upgrade path is pretty fast and cheap if we are just talking about specialty blocks and detailing rather than doing it that way for the entire structure.

 
Now that I think of it. Considering when we want reinforced concrete. We have to craft the rebar frames, then upgrade them, then wait for it to dry, then upgrade it, wait for it to dry again, and finally get reinforced concrete. Ultimately we are eliminating, the spent waiting for concrete to dry, gathering iron, and forging rebar frames, at the cost of only two extra clicks with a hammer.

That's a good deal, but it will still save us time if we would get rebar frames. Maybe that's the point, rebar frames could make it too quick to build up concrete stuff. But if the people are to complain a good compromise would be to add the rebar frames at the cost of having to wait for concrete to dry, I like this idea. As silly as it may sound it's immersive to wait for concrete dry.

 
jeromeN7 said:
Now that I think of it. Considering when we want reinforced concrete. We have to craft the rebar frames, then upgrade them, then wait for it to dry, then upgrade it, wait for it to dry again, and finally get reinforced concrete. Ultimately we are eliminating, the spent waiting for concrete to dry, gathering iron, and forging rebar frames, at the cost of only two extra clicks with a hammer.

That's a good deal, but it will still save us time if we would get rebar frames. Maybe that's the point, rebar frames could make it too quick to build up concrete stuff. But if the people are to complain a good compromise would be to add the rebar frames at the cost of having to wait for concrete to dry, I like this idea. As silly as it may sound it's immersive to wait for concrete dry.
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No, using rebar frames means you go to reinforced concrete right off the bat. You don't upgrade it twice. That was the tradeoff, use more iron to skip the regular concrete step. Was just a mess currently due to rebar frames missing the majority of shapes. 

 
bdubyah said:
No, using rebar frames means you go to reinforced concrete right off the bat.
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Yeah, I forgot about that. I just started playing again. There's no excuses now, the new system will make life harder.

But, yeah, yeah, yeah, more shapes are good...

 
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I'm not arguing, I would've preferred they keep all the different levels but just standardize the shapes and hp gains. I do like them doing away with downgrades though. 

 
Roland said:
Or perhaps you could upgrade just the critical ones that will make or break your structure and just place the rest. The upgrade path is pretty fast and cheap if we are just talking about specialty blocks and detailing rather than doing it that way for the entire structure.
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I'm sorry? Have you ever even built a base??  :suspicious:

Most of the time you need A LOT of high tier blocks to build ANY base, so that means that now we'll have to go through the full upgrade path EACH TIME?  :mmph:

 
Jost Amman said:
so that means that now we'll have to go through the full upgrade path EACH TIME?
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The "full" upgrade path is four clicks of the mouse if you have a nail gun and stacks of wood, cobblestone, concrete mix, and steel in your inventory. You keep talking like it is this big long upgrade path like it's still A19 or something. That's gone. Use a nail gun and have your mats on hand and it is click, click, click, click done. And that is only for the blocks that you are worried you might place wrong so you want to use the frame block that can be picked up. For most of the base you can just craft the block directly and place. Nobody is being forced to use the upgrade path if they don't want to have to go through it.

 
POCKET951 said:
so in Alpha 19 going from particle board to Steel yielded a total of  1056 Experience

can you give us a rough idea how much exp we will get for doing the same process in alpha 20?
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What is with this obsession with experience? Actions will result in an amount of experience given, which may or may not be the same in A20 compared to how it was in A19. Does it really matter?

This isn't directly directed at you, @POCKET951, I've just seen this question posed a number of times and it confounds me.

 
Burrfly said:
I'm looking forward to alpha 20 a lot - probably the most out of all updates :)

I love the new POI's and the RWG looks amazing from the few screenshots we've seen. The feral sense option is really nice, vehicle paint (finally!!!), the new shapes, gamestage balance, that's all amazing

But I am personally sad about 1 thing, which is no hate, but I just wanted to say it: the simplifying of the build path...

For me that's just a loss of variation, creativity (and sometimes even strategy) for a base. It's also sad that wet concrete is being removed, as that gave players a tiny little challenge to think about: if it will be dry in time if necessary. The rebar frames allowed you to pick it up and actually also made it look cooler like progress was being made if you saw some frames not being filled with concrete yet, like in real life, like a new building that is being made - in the beginning you mostly see frames and bars.

7 Days to Die is my favourite game, but personally, simplifying doesn't feel well to do for this game. Same goes with the player armor which will be heavily simplified in alpha 21. Simplifying means less variation, more repeating, and thus: playthroughs feeling a little bit less unique.
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Jugom said:
I came to ask this too.
there's a massive time difference between upgrading rebar to concrete and upgrading particle box >> wood>>stone>> concrete. not only in upgrade clicks, but also farming raws.  so I really hope they add something that that radial upgrade menu.
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It's funny that the two most common complaints related to the new upgrade path are these:

  • It leads to less variation;
  • You can't go rebar -> concrete directly anymore.
Uh. Alright. I think the second one is more valid. I don't see people sticking to cobblestone out of anything but lack of resources. The XP alone (another complaint! 😃) makes people upgrade things. Flagstone and concrete offer no advantage whatsoever over their upgrades and I've never even seen people build with reinforced wood and metal reinforced wood.  I'll mourn the loss of scrap iron, though: excellent material for structural support  early game (and so was metal reinforced wood!), but I've never seen anyone else use it.

It shouldn't be hard to mod back the current upgrade path or even one of the older more complex ones, but I doubt anyone would bother using them. I expect overhaul mods will keep longer upgrade paths -- I particularly love what GNAMod does, with hit points and craft cost depending on shape. 

I think this is a non-issue that will be lauded by almost everyone by the time 20.0 stable is out.

Question regarding shapes: what about the other variant helpers such as glass and metal fences?

 
dcsobral said:
It's funny that the two most common complaints related to the new upgrade path are these:

  • It leads to less variation;
  • You can't go rebar -> concrete directly anymore.
Uh. Alright. I think the second one is more valid. I don't see people sticking to cobblestone out of anything but lack of resources. The XP alone (another complaint! 😃) makes people upgrade things. Flagstone and concrete offer no advantage whatsoever over their upgrades and I've never even seen people build with reinforced wood and metal reinforced wood.  I'll mourn the loss of scrap iron, though: excellent material for structural support  early game (and so was metal reinforced wood!), but I've never seen anyone else use it.

It shouldn't be hard to mod back the current upgrade path or even one of the older more complex ones, but I doubt anyone would bother using them. I expect overhaul mods will keep longer upgrade paths -- I particularly love what GNAMod does, with hit points and craft cost depending on shape. 

I think this is a non-issue that will be lauded by almost everyone by the time 20.0 stable is out.

Question regarding shapes: what about the other variant helpers such as glass and metal fences?
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Well, imagine having to upgrade all this 4 times

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Jugom said:
Well, imagine having to upgrade all this 4 times

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If you are really that concerned, then lay out that entire build out with particle board and then replace each block one by one with a full version of a higher upgrade type once you're finished, or just upgrade the particle board to match, or build with solid blocks from the start. Yeah, rebar, one of our favorite toys to work with, is gone, but I'm sure the new system will curb stomp the old one. At the very least, it'll make it far less confusing for new players, which I assume is the primary goal here.

Think of it this way: new player builds with wood and dies on the horde night, rage quits, leaves a bad review on Steam. Hence, wood has been buffed. Another player builds with cobble but is unsure how to work with rebar, wet concrete, and is confused about regular and reinforced concrete. Hence, simplification is absolutely needed there. The less head scratching there is for newer players, the less frustrating moments that occur, the better business does overall. :)  Now I obviously don't speak for TFP here and I'm not a marketing expert, but given what they've said so far, and they know what they are doing far more so than any of us, this is the "strategy" that is at play, and will continue to be at play with further improvements like the streamlined armor system in A21.

 
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Jugom said:
Well, imagine having to upgrade all this 4 times

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Lots of XP. And no waiting for wet concrete to dry if I want to go to steel. I've done some pretty big buildings and I've only ever used rebar for two reasons:

  1. No waiting to upgrade to reinforced concrete, which is no longer an issue.
  2. Better structural integrity than wood.
I love the rebars for their unique structural integrity. I will miss them and making a mod to re-introduce rebars is something I might well do, but I like all sort of things that no one else does.

So I still think this is a non-issue.  Whatever time is lost by upgrading from wood is gained from no wet concrete.

 
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