PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[Gamida]

For these guys it’s all or nothing. Either stealth works the way they want it to work(The zombie stays asleep) 100% of the time or it should be removed entirely. If the perk points work 95% of the time (in the narrow specific manner they’ve defined) but don’t work in that particular way 5% of the time then that means stealth is completely broken and all points spent on stealth completely invalidated. 
 

Of course they will interpret anything you write as meaning Stealth should be completely removed. It’s the absolute terms in which they are thinking. 

Hoping I am not one of "these guys". I don't mind zombies waking up but if I can sneak through a building and not do anything wrong like step on garbage, shoot a weapon (besides the bow or silenced weapon) or start running and jumping then that would be great. If I screw up then I should be prepared for a fight...which will also of course could wake up more zoms

 

[Roland]

Please explain to me how you can still be surprised and be taken off guard when you do the same POIs over and over. The auto-aggro areas are good for the first few times, then they just become an annoyance, you know where they are, and you can simply cut through the walls/ceiling/floor and surprise the zombies by triggering them from a totally safe position.

So your stance is that nothing should remain in the game that doesn't remain just as thrilling and new and fun as the very first time you encountered it? Say goodbye to most of the content of almost every game on the planet...

That is an unrealistic standard that people ONLY apply to those particular features they personally happen to not like but happily ignore for features they enjoy. Sure, auto-aggro areas are not as much fun as they were the first time I encountered them but even I have not yet played through every POI and there will be a ton of new POIs that nobody has played coming in A20 and so those will provide more first time encounters with those volumes.

So there it is explained. When new content comes out you can still be surprised. And for those areas you've already played I supposed you just realize that this is a game you've already played before just like you do with every other feature in it that isn't quite as much fun as it was the very first time you played.

BTW...it is interesting that your argument against auto-aggro areas is that after the POI is memorized they are always the same. Do you know that if we get rid of them then all stealth gameplay everywhere in every POI and throughout every playthrough will all always be the same? Remember when you headshot that sleeping zombie in the kitchen? It was just like headshotting that sleeping zombie in the attic which was just like headshotting that sleeping zombie in the Shotgun Messiah Factory, the church, and the daycare. Always the same everywhere.

And you're worried about us feeling less thrills the second time we hit the same POI with auto-aggro rooms?

 

[Gamida]

See it isn't a punishment it is a risk. You want the loot you got to fight for it.

Disregard the vanilla pois that you can walk off the street grab the loot and go. (Hopefully fixed with the new pois coming tfp have shown) 

But if you chose to bypass a poi straight to the loot that is a players choice rather then play a poi as intended. Which is that players play style.

But the attack volumes are fight us win you get rewarded.  They offer challenge to loot reward. 

Tho your screamer idea should be good be another option that can also be used on top of the attack volumes.

I think that is what some think is the problem there. If they are guaranteed to wake no matter how much you sneak then it is not a risk. Playing a poi as intended should be follow a path the devs set out knowing there are zombies about. How far can you make it without waking them? I am thinking that players who stealth just want the sliver of chance that they could sneak past them and not have to fight but if they wake them then fight it is.

 

[Roland]

Hoping I am not one of "these guys". I don't mind zombies waking up but if I can sneak through a building and not do anything wrong like step on garbage, shoot a weapon (besides the bow or silenced weapon) or start running and jumping then that would be great. If I screw up then I should be prepared for a fight...which will also of course could wake up more zoms

The thing is Gammy you can still have that. You can sneak through a building now and if you killed every sleeper in every room except the one that woke up the sleepers on its own then you know that you did it perfectly. If there are 9 rooms that are standard non aggro volumes you can STILL make a mistake and have to pay the consequences AND you also have maybe one room where regardless of what you did the zombies are awake and aggravated.

But thats not all!

You can backtrack within the POI and hide and wait for the aggro timer to run out and then re-emerge and throw rocks and shoot will crouched from the shadows to gain all your stealth bonuses for the instant kill and without alerting the other zombies. In that way you can take them out one by one. So even with the auto aggro rooms if you choose to do so you can still overcome an entire POI 100% by stealth. Its just that one or two rooms out of the entire POI present a different kind of puzzle and require more challenging stealth play than just sneaking up on unconscious victims all the time.

 

[Gamida]

On this note and never having tried, is there a certain distance you can get to a sleeper before he will wake? I know I have opened doors and seen sleepers but have always tried to snipe them with my bow. I have even hit closet doors with axe and when it broke there was a sleeper in there that I never woke up. How are sleepers actually woken up by the player.

 

[stallionsden]

I think that is what some think is the problem there. If they are guaranteed to wake no matter how much you sneak then it is not a risk. Playing a poi as intended should be follow a path the devs set out knowing there are zombies about. How far can you make it without waking them? I am thinking that players who stealth just want the sliver of chance that they could sneak past them and not have to fight but if they wake them then fight it is.

You take risk the wrong way.

Risk you want that loot you got to get thru the aggressive zs. 

Not whether or not your stealth is gonna work or not. It isn't lol.  But the actual risk of death if you really really want that loot then you got to get thru the zs. Roland sums it up better tho. 

 

[Jost Amman]

You take risk the wrong way.

Risk you want that loot you got to get thru the aggressive zs. 

So we either play the game the way YOU want, or we don't play at all?

Oh, well... tough luck for us I guess, eh.

I can understand Roland defending AAZs (Auto-Aggro Zones), since defending the "status quo" is his job description... But you're a player like me, so I don't get why you'd want others to forcibly play your way, even if TFP can change the feature so that sneaking through AAZs is 1/100 possible without impacting the way you like to play.

Also, just to clarify... For me, rushing through a POI guns blazing is not a problem. I actually consider it the "easy way". When you just go full Hulk into a POI you save a lot of time and don't need to be as subtle or careful. So don't act all like "LOL, you @%$# can't even go in a proper fight like I do LOL". I can clear out a POI no problem even when I'm drunk! *wink*

So your stance is that nothing should remain in the game that doesn't remain just as thrilling and new and fun as the very first time you encountered it? Say goodbye to most of the content of almost every game on the planet...

No. My point was to reply to stallionsden that was implying that the reason AAZs should stay as they are is that they're "thrilling".

I won't even quote the rest of your reply since it's a straw man argument, and you know it. 

 

[stallionsden]

So we either play the game the way YOU want, or we don't play at all?

Oh, well... tough luck for us I guess, eh.

I can understand Roland defending AAZs (Auto-Aggro Zones), since defending the "status quo" is his job description... But you're a player like me, so I don't get why you'd want others to forcibly play your way, even if TFP can change the feature so that sneaking through AAZs is 1/100 possible without impacting the way you like to play.

Also, just to clarify... For me, rushing through a POI guns blazing is not a problem. I actually consider it the "easy way". When you just go full Hulk into a POI you save a lot of time and don't need to be as subtle or careful. So don't act all like "LOL, you @%$# can't even go in a proper fight like I do LOL". I can clear out a POI no problem even when I'm drunk! *wink*

No. My point was to reply to stallionsden that was implying that the reason AAZs should stay as they are is that they're "thrilling".

I won't even quote the rest of your reply since it's a straw man argument, and you know it. 

Lol so we must play the game your boring way that will kill any fun to the game. cause you want that loot and not to wake up a zombie......
stealth is great attack volumes are awesome and fun and challenging.. It isnt just my way others like challenge to and actually like zombies to be in game.

Oh and so roland is a moderator he has to say what tfp tell him lol  .. He cant play a game and not have an opinion.. i didnt imply i said they are thrilling and bring excitement and challenge to the game. 

 where am i forcing players to play my way ***Yawn** do you have any actual discussion at all or you just change words to suit your agenda.. to fit to your argument.. 
Wait Yet here you are saying they need to change stealth so people have to play stealth your way.  ***Yawn*** 


 

 

[Jost Amman]

Lol so we must play the game your boring way that will kill any fun to the game. cause you want that loot and not to wake up a zombie......

Look, you either have serious comprehension problems or you're simply trolling now.

First, take a look at my previous posts and try to actually READ them and UNDERSTAND them.

The one IMPOSING your own way of playing on those who want also stealth gameplay is YOU, not me.

You want to go through POIs guns blazing and all? Good for you!

You can do that, even if they make the change I'm asking for, you can still do that.

However, since you're saying you don't want the devs to touch the AAZs, you ARE imposing YOUR childish way of playing the game to us (see what I did there?).

I don't know how old you are, but judging from your replies you must be 12 to 14 or something like that.

Please, now, stop replying if you don't really care to read and understand what I'm writing and frankly, your condescending attitude is annoying.

Oh and so roland is a moderator he has to say what tfp tell him lol  .. He cant play a game and not have an opinion.. i didnt imply i said they are thrilling and bring excitement and challenge to the game. 

I'm not saying he can't have an opinion, but if you're a moderator you've been "selected" probably because you're leaning more toward supporting TFP than not. So even if he can disagree with anything TFP do, he'll also always be mostly on their side anyway. It is how it is, is not bad faith or conspiracy theory. You shouldn't ask the waiter owner if the food they serve is good...  

 

[meganoth]

Also, just to clarify... For me, rushing through a POI guns blazing is not a problem. I actually consider it the "easy way". When you just go full Hulk into a POI you save a lot of time and don't need to be as subtle or careful. So don't act all like "LOL, you @%$# can't even go in a proper fight like I do LOL". I can clear out a POI no problem even when I'm drunk! *wink*

If I may intrude in this conversation between you and stallionsden, what do you think about the strategy to run away and try to restealth if you encounter an attack volume?

There is no doubt that a stealth player does not want to do a "guns blazing" strategy. But as agility player you invested in agility, i.e. speed is your strength. For me it looks like the agility player is supposed to combine these two abilities to overcome the obstacles, not change into a fortitude guy when a problem arises. If anything we should be talking if the "restealth" strategy does or does not work.

I have tried to restealth and it was challenging and fun. Though if you get into such a situation the problem can be that you forget to run and instead try to shoot it out.

I don't even know if TFP did initially think of "restealth" as a way for the AGI player to overcome auto-attack rooms when they created the auto-attack room feature. But it is available in the game and nobody can say this is an unnatural strategy for an agility player.

 

[stallionsden]

Look, you either have serious comprehension problems or you're simply trolling now.

First, take a look at my previous posts and try to actually READ them and UNDERSTAND them.

The one IMPOSING your own way of playing on those who want also stealth gameplay is YOU, not me.

You want to go through POIs guns blazing and all? Good for you!

You can do that, even if they make the change I'm asking for, you can still do that.

However, since you're saying you don't want the devs to touch the AAZs, you ARE imposing YOUR childish way of playing the game to us (see what I did there?).

I don't know how old you are, but judging from your replies you must be 12 to 14 or something like that.

Please, now, stop replying if you don't really care to read and understand what I'm writing and frankly, your condescending attitude is annoying.

I'm not saying he can't have an opinion, but if you're a moderator you've been "selected" probably because you're leaning more toward supporting TFP than not. So even if he can disagree with anything TFP do, he'll also always be mostly on their side anyway. It is how it is, is not bad faith or conspiracy theory. You shouldn't ask the waiter owner if the food they serve is good...  

The only one here that can't comprehend anything is you.  

I play stealth.  Where do I say I go thru a poi guns a blazing. Scraping for words that aren't there I see.

Trolling ... words used by those who can't get their own way. 

 

[Jost Amman]

If I may intrude in this conversation between you and stallionsden, what do you think about the strategy to run away and try to restealth if you encounter an attack volume?

It depends. Some rooms don't even allow you time to "re-stealth", others you could do that, but my point is the AAZs are a preposterous mechanics that is used to artificially create thrilling moments in the game. However, I've proved that the thrilling is short-lived and only works for new players, while the "abuse" over stealth players stands.

I play stealth.  Where do I say I go thru a poi guns a blazing. Scraping for words that aren't there I see.

Risk you want that loot you got to get thru the aggressive zs. 

See it isn't a punishment it is a risk. You want the loot you got to fight for it.

But the attack volumes are fight us win you get rewarded.  They offer challenge to loot reward. 

Lol so we must play the game your boring way that will kill any fun to the game. cause you want that loot and not to wake up a zombie......
stealth is great attack volumes are awesome and fun and challenging.. It isnt just my way others like challenge to and actually like zombies to be in game.

 

[stallionsden]

It depends. Some rooms don't even allow you time to "re-stealth", others you could do that, but my point is the AAZs are a preposterous mechanics that is used to artificially create thrilling moments in the game. However, I've proved that the thrilling is short-lived and only works for new players, while the "abuse" over stealth players stands.

You really need to learn to read. Lol that just proves I didn't say I run thru the pois guns a blazing.  

My play style is stealth.  I dont use guns unless they have silencers either.

But am I spose to stand on my head or cover 1 eye to see where I wrote I go thru Guns blazing.....

It depends. Some rooms don't even allow you time to "re-stealth", others you could do that, but my point is the AAZs are a preposterous mechanics that is used to artificially create thrilling moments in the game. However, I've proved that the thrilling is short-lived and only works for new players, while the "abuse" over stealth players stands.

You proved you cheat pois. That's fine it is how you get easy loot your play style.  

But you didn't prove anything but your own view. Many play a poi as it is intended and can stealth and then deal with the volumes that are on attack. 

Turn zs off if you can't handle em... 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I don´t mind not beeing able to sneak up on every zombie. That´s fine. However the implmentation sucks. Build in some kind of alarm. A noisy floor. Stuff lying around that you can´t avoid and isn´t affected by the urban combat book. A burglar alarm.

Just don´t have some zombies magically wake up for no reason at all. That´s lazy and annoying.

Especially because with other zombies you can basically get near enough to have your noses touching, sometimes even without sneaking, without them recognizing you. That vast difference is what makes it so annoying and giving it an artifical feel.

It´s simply not good game design that the same enemy reacts so different to the same situation without any indicator why this happens.

 

[meganoth]

It depends. Some rooms don't even allow you time to "re-stealth", others you could do that, but my point is the AAZs are a preposterous mechanics that is used to artificially create thrilling moments in the game. However, I've proved that the thrilling is short-lived and only works for new players, while the "abuse" over stealth players stands.

Its a relatively cheap mechanic that still allows unpredictable events to occur for new players and old players with imperfect memory. I envy your good memory in other cases but in games I'm happy to forget fast. I remember a few places with auto-trigger but I still get surprised a lot.

That you remember every POI and place is also a general problem of replaying a game many times and can't be helped. Complaining about that is like complaining about the weather or that you generally know too much about the game.

Also you complain about the abuse but then say you can remember those places and know how to circumvent the mechanic. So where is the abuse in your case? I often get surprised and feel not abused but entertained, and that even if am not surprised and know the room is AAZ. If I understand your proof correctly you are not surprised and therefore can't be abused, you just have to change your routine whenever you get to such an AAZ room.

------------

As I said I like your idea that stealth influences the chance an AAZ room fires. I just don't know if other critics of the feature will be satisfied with that as even with the best stealth for example half of the AAZ rooms will still trigger the zombies.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Maybe add a zombie type that can´t be sneaked upon that also has the ability to wake up others in a certain area. We are so far away from the "standard" zombie with puking cops, toxic gas burping tourists, spiders and screamers already. Another special zombie won´t matter. 

Would feel a lot better than them just waking up for no reason when you just could get into the same zombies face in the neighbour room a minute before.

To keep the surprise effect it could be hidden somewhere. Those cupboards we already have, drop ceiling. Behind furniture, etc.

 

[Matt115]

honestly i have 90% of time wtf - well honestly i usually don't know if aliasing is turn off or on . this same sitation with raytracing etc - i just see textures and models if they looks good or not . this same situation with fps - 30 or 60 i can't see diffrences. but bad looking textur of water or rock can destroy everything. in l4d2 i'm sometimes tired of flat clothes on ground etc so i spend time to find good mods. but some of them add for example reflections on cars -did i "care" about it? no i focused more on rust. well maybe that's why i care more about zombie variants that lighting

 

[Matt115]

So your stance is that nothing should remain in the game that doesn't remain just as thrilling and new and fun as the very first time you encountered it? Say goodbye to most of the content of almost every game on the planet...

That is an unrealistic standard that people ONLY apply to those particular features they personally happen to not like but happily ignore for features they enjoy. Sure, auto-aggro areas are not as much fun as they were the first time I encountered them but even I have not yet played through every POI and there will be a ton of new POIs that nobody has played coming in A20 and so those will provide more first time encounters with those volumes.

So there it is explained. When new content comes out you can still be surprised. And for those areas you've already played I supposed you just realize that this is a game you've already played before just like you do with every other feature in it that isn't quite as much fun as it was the very first time you played.

BTW...it is interesting that your argument against auto-aggro areas is that after the POI is memorized they are always the same. Do you know that if we get rid of them then all stealth gameplay everywhere in every POI and throughout every playthrough will all always be the same? Remember when you headshot that sleeping zombie in the kitchen? It was just like headshotting that sleeping zombie in the attic which was just like headshotting that sleeping zombie in the Shotgun Messiah Factory, the church, and the daycare. Always the same everywhere.

And you're worried about us feeling less thrills the second time we hit the same POI with auto-aggro rooms?

so solution of this problem is : put demolisher zombie into normal POI . it will looks like creeper from mc - you shot at him and sometimes he will blow up sometimes not. so it will random and eliminate problem of auta-aggro zone because well explosion in lound and it logical - i shot he in chest so it is my mistake.  so this solution could work well

Btw i don't understand why people care more about more POI that zombie variants. You can go into house worshop but you will find still this same zombie nurse. this hurt a lot in cod on outbreake to. in round base map there is a lot of variants. that's why i love l4d2 mods- zombie girl in tshirt ,leggins , without shoes and one eye looks diffrent that zombie girl with both eye and in dress . even mod which add 8 hunter variants change a lof . so this is thing i wish it was "main target" in A21 or A22 - more zombie variants. i know i write about it a lot but honestly - 10 more variants and i will be happy. and add bandits will not solve this problem

Maybe add a zombie type that can´t be sneaked upon that also has the ability to wake up others in a certain area. We are so far away from the "standard" zombie with puking cops, toxic gas burping tourists, spiders and screamers already. Another special zombie won´t matter. 

Would feel a lot better than them just waking up for no reason when you just could get into the same zombies face in the neighbour room a minute before.

To keep the surprise effect it could be hidden somewhere. Those cupboards we already have, drop ceiling. Behind furniture, etc.

well i'm writiing about new zombie variants almost every week but but honestly probably i will get wings that they will add them unfortunatly

 

[Survager]

And Joel never said those words.

Ok, what then is this, if not the words about what Joel told? ) lol

English is not my first language, but I'm sure this is about food poisoning and unfair punishment of the player )

"The fact is nobody on the team liked it. It was too demoralizing to lose all your food over something random, you didn't really do anything wrong and you got punished and food is very scarce on MP servers so its not the same as SP. Rotten food will damage your health."

 

[Gamida]

You take risk the wrong way.

Risk you want that loot you got to get thru the aggressive zs. 

Not whether or not your stealth is gonna work or not. It isn't lol.  But the actual risk of death if you really really want that loot then you got to get thru the zs. Roland sums it up better tho. 

I may be but to me risk is doing something that has a chance of going sideways. For instance climbing Mount Everest. There is a risk you will die. There is also the chance you will make it up and back safely. Maybe by the skin of your teeth but still safely. Lots of people take the risk to do it and some make it some don't.

If I want to get the loot and have to get through aggressive zs then that is fine but it would seem instead of the poi having 100% sleepers there be a room or two that have some awake zombies just shuffling around the rooms that I have to kill (as silently as possible) to get past to my goal. Could even be a poi that all the zoms are awake and in separate room that you have to really fight your way through to get to that sweet, sweet loot...hoping it is not just 3 arrows, a brass trophy and a can of tuna

Edit: After posting this and reading down through the rest I can see that things are getting a bit "heated". Don't mind a debate but for now I think I will pull my hat out of the ring before things get a bit more hairy...