PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[Roland]

Then climb down the ladder and move it on your own and stop expecting someone else to knock the ladders out from under you

This is a survival game. You aren’t supposed to be in control of every aspect of the world. Unexpected things happen and you have to react, adapt, and survive. 
 

I don’t want to manually create challenging situations for myself. I want the world to do it. It’s like Dead is Dead. Sure, I can just delete the world myself when I die but there is something more exciting when that power is out of my hands. 
 

I could intentionally wake up the zombies to get a different experience but then I’d be ready for it. The surprise and lack of control necessitates authentic reaction and choices. 
 

You want predictable controllable gameplay. I like surprises and situations that demand adaptation and survival. 
 

You think that a zombie waking up no matter what negates stealth entirely and invalidates all the points you spent. I think a zombie waking up is a surprise event and I can still use stealth to hide and then kill from the shadows or if I choose just kill it outright. Just a different perspective. 

 

[stallionsden]

If you're doing (A), then you're looking for (B). If you don't want (B) in then game, then (A) has no purpose. So, I don't think this is intentional on your part, with that portion of the post you're saying you want stealth removed from the game.

where did i say i want stealth removed from the game lol. 

 

[Roland]

where did i say i want stealth removed from the game lol. 

For these guys it’s all or nothing. Either stealth works the way they want it to work(The zombie stays asleep) 100% of the time or it should be removed entirely. If the perk points work 95% of the time (in the narrow specific manner they’ve defined) but don’t work in that particular way 5% of the time then that means stealth is completely broken and all points spent on stealth completely invalidated. 
 

Of course they will interpret anything you write as meaning Stealth should be completely removed. It’s the absolute terms in which they are thinking. 

 

[hiemfire]

where did i say i want stealth removed from the game lol. 

By accessing you're surroundings you're looking for indicators of when and where stealth will function (gauging distances between objects, ground clutter, light level, likely hiding places, etc.) and where you have to position yourself to take advantage of them. Yet you follow that up by saying you don't want indicators of it being in the game. Without (B) there is no (A) and there is no stealth possible without (A). 

This is a survival game. You aren’t supposed to be in control of every aspect of the world. Unexpected things happen and you have to react, adapt, and survive.

Some of the keys to survival are being alert to your surroundings, identifying situations that need to be avoided, in the rare cases of them being unavoidable learning the indicators that that situation or something similar is happening, and being prepared for multiple possibilities.

Attack volumes kill the first 3, game rng @%$#s the 4th in the ass with a railroad tie.

 

[Matt115]

This is a survival game. You aren’t supposed to be in control of every aspect of the world. Unexpected things happen and you have to react, adapt, and survive. 
 

I don’t want to manually create challenging situations for myself. I want the world to do it. It’s like Dead is Dead. Sure, I can just delete the world myself when I die but there is something more exciting when that power is out of my hands. 
 

I could intentionally wake up the zombies to get a different experience but then I’d be ready for it. The surprise and lack of control necessitates authentic reaction and choices. 
 

You want predictable controllable gameplay. I like surprises and situations that demand adaptation and survival. 
 

You think that a zombie waking up no matter what negates stealth entirely and invalidates all the points you spent. I think a zombie waking up is a surprise event and I can still use stealth to hide and then kill from the shadows or if I choose just kill it outright. Just a different perspective. 

hey roland i have idea what do you think about this concept :

you have game similiar to 7dtd ( presume 7dtd but with some changes) - but only thing you can put on floor are traps, doors , workstations etc. and zombie are changed into mannequins - rules simple in day they are just indestuctible and can't move - but at night they moving and will hunt you down until you die or sun rise. they can destroy doors and windows. anyone can destroy metal block or another "modern block" only wood , dirt iron etc . you can kill them at night but they can stand o lot so 3 bullets from magnum is something nomal. there is few  types of them like - normal - walk like walking dead zombie , crawler so it's looks like mix of mannquins and circus artist, kid mannquins (honestly i'm sure nobody will say anything about a kind mannquin) fast and small, auger so this is someting like l4d2 charger but with auger and titan mannquin who have exeception from rule about destroying stuff so he can destroy anything but can stay only in city.

Rules are simple but in will make a lof of supraises right? 

By accessing you're surroundings you're looking for indicators of when and where stealth will function (gauging distances between objects, ground clutter, light level, likely hiding places, etc.) and where you have to position yourself to take advantage of them. Yet you follow that up by saying you don't want indicators of it being in the game. Without (B) there is no (A) and there is no stealth possible without (A). 

Some of the keys to survival are being alert to your surroundings, identifying situations that need to be avoided, in the rare cases of them being unavoidable learning the indicators that that situation or something similar is happening, and being prepared for multiple possibilities.

Attack volumes kill the first 3, game rng @%$#s the 4th in the ass with a railroad tie.

honestly you are  right and wrong in this same time - one zombie can hear better but another one can be deaf . some zombie can be blind another can saw you from a roof of police station. this is logical. but is totaly stupid when you crash zombie head with one hit but another zombie can survive few of them - well biker soldiers have helmet so he can survive this  or wight because he is supermutant . but rest of zombies could have rule - 1 shot of shothun i chest = comfirmed kill. it could be easier - yes . but it could be logical. and there is a lot of " too much" rng thing. honestly it could make it boring and simpler but logical

 

[stallionsden]

By accessing you're surroundings you're looking for indicators of when and where stealth will function (gauging distances between objects, ground clutter, light level, likely hiding places, etc.) and where you have to position yourself to take advantage of them. Yet you follow that up by saying you don't want indicators of it being in the game. Without (B) there is no (A) and there is no stealth possible without (A). 

Some of the keys to survival are being alert to your surroundings, identifying situations that need to be avoided, in the rare cases of them being unavoidable learning the indicators that that situation or something similar is happening, and being prepared for multiple possibilities.

Attack volumes kill the first 3, game rng @%$#s the 4th in the ass with a railroad tie.

yes i use my eyes dont need any indicators on my screen to see a trap  or a bad spot in a poi. a indicator on screen is like needing to hold your hand when you leave the house cause you are to scared to enjoy the outside.

read what i wrote how you want to. 

 

 

[hiemfire]

yes i use my eyes dont need any indicators on my screen to see a trap  or a bad spot in a poi. a indicator on screen is like needing to hold your hand when you leave the house cause you are to scared to enjoy the outside.

read what i wrote how you want to. 

 

Are you referring to something along the lines of what they implemented for player owned vehicles and spears when you say indicators?

 

[stallionsden]

For these guys it’s all or nothing. Either stealth works the way they want it to work(The zombie stays asleep) 100% of the time or it should be removed entirely. If the perk points work 95% of the time (in the narrow specific manner they’ve defined) but don’t work in that particular way 5% of the time then that means stealth is completely broken and all points spent on stealth completely invalidated. 
 

Of course they will interpret anything you write as meaning Stealth should be completely removed. It’s the absolute terms in which they are thinking. 

yeh totally agree.  

each play thru i play stealth. spear, bow, and dont use any weapons til i get a silencer atleast. 

i remove all garbage piles that make noise when yo walk over them as to not make any extra unwarranted noise. 

stealth works but doesnt mean it should play as you are invisible all the time. totally agree with your statement

Are you referring to something along the lines of what they implemented for player owned vehicles and spears when you say indicators?

no i am referring to the closets in rooms (obvious possible trap. )

large loot in a middle of the room and around it is clear.

i am referring to using my eyes to survey the world and my surroundings and look the indicators i speak of are in my head that say there is a trap there is a possible issue.

Dont need someone to hold my hand to get thru a poi. or a indicator on the screen to say hello attack volume coming.  

 

[hiemfire]

Dont need someone to hold my hand to get thru a poi. or a indicator on the screen to say hello attack volume coming. 

This is what I was asking about. If in that context you're referring to something along the lines of the Icons that I mentioned, player owned vehicle or spear among others that were implemented, then we're actually in agreement on this. Something in the game's actual environment that can easily be missed if you're not paying attention is what I think @Laz Man was referring to.

 

[stallionsden]

This is what I was asking about. If in that context you're referring to something along the lines of the Icons that I mentioned, player owned vehicle or spear among others that were implemented, then we're actually in agreement on this. Something in the game's actual environment that can easily be missed if you're not paying attention is what I think @Laz Man was referring to.

yeh but they are already in game and working if one uses their eyes. 

a indicator like the spear or 4x4 or the buffs would ruin the game and enjoyment of surprise and challenge. 

 

 

[hiemfire]

yeh but they are already in game and working if one uses their eyes.

Nothing that differentiates them from non-attack volume ambushes, there are a bunch of those, which can be countered via observation, positioning, careful removal of the various sound traps and not using noisy equipment. Attack volumes trigger regardless of what you do to counter them.

 

[stallionsden]

Nothing that differentiates them from non-attack volume ambushes, there are a bunch of those, which can be countered via observation, positioning, careful removal of the various sound traps and not using noisy equipment. Attack volumes trigger regardless of what you do to counter them.

Yes I know that and there shouldn't be indicators to tell you an attack volume is coming.

The traps are a sign tho in some pois you pick em up early you can prepare. If you dont you get caught out.

Where is the challenge of the game if you need your hand held thru it. The oh crap moments are great also.

Without challenge and the oh crap moments the game be boring and they may as well remove zs lol. No movie or series either has ever made it so a character can pass safely uninterrupted thru a building without a oh crap moment.

Same can be shown in real life to, you approach a stranger the person is agitated angry etc you are going to say that person is gonna react. But some just need someone to calm em down and talk.

Other times someone can be standing there and you walk near them they attack you no signals no signs nothing.

No visual indications no indicator popping up on your screen. You get attacked.

Nothing wrong with stealth and no indicators showing a attack volume. 

 

[hiemfire]

Same can be shown in real life to, you approach a stranger the person is agitated angry etc you are going to say that person is gonna react. But some just need someone to calm em down and talk.

Other times someone can be standing there and you walk near them they attack you no signals no signs nothing.

There are always indications if you're paying attention.

 

[stallionsden]

There are always indications if you're paying attention.

Let's agree to disagree on this one.  

 

[hiemfire]

Let's agree to disagree on this one.  

Fair enough. o7

 

[Jost Amman]

I play stealth style love it.

Attack volumes are super fun and catches you off guard to which makes you always challenged and always on your toes.

Wasn't sure if you were trolling or something... but I see you really believe that.

Please explain to me how you can still be surprised and be taken off guard when you do the same POIs over and over. The auto-aggro areas are good for the first few times, then they just become an annoyance, you know where they are, and you can simply cut through the walls/ceiling/floor and surprise the zombies by triggering them from a totally safe position.

Giving the auto-aggro areas a chance to NOT trigger when you're sneaking, and you have a high level in HiS, it's the best option IMO, since even those who sneak and know where the areas are will never know for sure if it's going to trigger or not.

 

[stallionsden]

Wasn't sure if you were trolling or something... but I see you really believe that.

Please explain to me how you can still be surprised and be taken off guard when you do the same POIs over and over. The auto-aggro areas are good for the first few times, then they just become an annoyance, you know where they are, and you can simply cut through the walls/ceiling/floor and surprise the zombies by triggering them from a totally safe position.

Giving the auto-aggro areas a chance to NOT trigger when you're sneaking, and you have a high level in HiS, it's the best option IMO, since even those who sneak and know where the areas are will never know for sure if it's going to trigger or not.

lol at trolling good try. that wont work then you just sneak to get the loot. no challenge no fun and you should just play with zs off. 

while yes you may find cheat ways to get around things, easy paths to the loot. many dont and actually play the poi as intended. even knowing where the zs are. 

but anyways even knowing there is a attack volume. the outcome is still different. how many zs spawn mostly. are you gonna be prepared enough to deal with them if there are more then previously been thru.  you can not pertain exact amounts each time as it will vary. 

 enjoy 

Edit: just wait til they bring in the sleeper update in a21. Which is a way better way of randomising a poi rather then kill game play for everyone else. 

 

[Survager]

For these guys it’s all or nothing. Either stealth works the way they want it to work(The zombie stays asleep) 100% of the time or it should be removed entirely. If the perk points work 95% of the time (in the narrow specific manner they’ve defined) but don’t work in that particular way 5% of the time then that means stealth is completely broken and all points spent on stealth completely invalidated. 
 

Of course they will interpret anything you write as meaning Stealth should be completely removed. It’s the absolute terms in which they are thinking. 

No, the point is quite different. The point is that trigger zones, in which the player's stealth skills are completely ignored, are implemented very poorly, they have no logic.

In such zones, without any adequate reason, zombies wake up and attack the player, and this looks like punishment for mistakes that the player did not commit, just like it was with the poisoning, which was eventually removed. Then Joel also said that the poisoning looks like a punishment for the player even if he did not make mistakes, and therefore it should be removed.

Trigger zones now work as punishment for imperfect mistakes.

It seems to me that the solution may be awake screamer zombies who can hide behind corners in such zones and could wake up the rest if they notice or hear the player. It was logical and would not look as punishment for imperfect mistakes as it is now. True, for this, you will have to completely rebuild the level design so that even with such zombies, players have a chance to eliminate them before they raise the alarm.

You want predictable controllable gameplay. I like surprises and situations that demand adaptation and survival.

Such zones could be called a surprise if they accidentally appeared in completely different locations and in different places of these locations )

 

[stallionsden]

No, the point is quite different. The point is that trigger zones, in which the player's stealth skills are completely ignored, are implemented very poorly, they have no logic.

In such zones, without any adequate reason, zombies wake up and attack the player, and this looks like punishment for mistakes that the player did not commit, just like it was with the poisoning, which was eventually removed. Then Joel also said that the poisoning looks like a punishment for the player even if he did not make mistakes, and therefore it should be removed.

Trigger zones now work as punishment for imperfect mistakes.

It seems to me that the solution may be awake screamer zombies who can hide behind corners in such zones and could wake up the rest if they notice or hear the player. It was logical and would not look as punishment for imperfect mistakes as it is now. True, for this, you will have to completely rebuild the level design so that even with such zombies, players have a chance to eliminate them before they raise the alarm.

See it isn't a punishment it is a risk. You want the loot you got to fight for it.

Disregard the vanilla pois that you can walk off the street grab the loot and go. (Hopefully fixed with the new pois coming tfp have shown) 

But if you chose to bypass a poi straight to the loot that is a players choice rather then play a poi as intended. Which is that players play style.

But the attack volumes are fight us win you get rewarded.  They offer challenge to loot reward. 

Tho your screamer idea should be good be another option that can also be used on top of the attack volumes.

 

[Roland]

No, the point is quite different. The point is that trigger zones, in which the player's stealth skills are completely ignored, are implemented very poorly, they have no logic.

In such zones, without any adequate reason, zombies wake up and attack the player, and this looks like punishment for mistakes that the player did not commit

I supply my own reasons. I know it wasn't because I made a stealth mistake ergo they must have woken up due to a stray smell or noise or they just happened to be already waking up. In other words, the player is not the center of the universe. Stuff happens independently of the player. It would be great if there were a visual or audio clue for the "real" cause that the zombies woke up despite the player's best efforts but since there is not, we have to supply those.

Some of us enjoy the the ensuing mayhem and don't see it as punishment. In fact, it is not a punishment. It is simply an event and it is purely the player that interprets it as a punishment or not. You see it as a punishment and get mad. I see it as an event that results in thrilling gameplay and get glad.

I say yes to making them seem more logical with cues that fill in for us why it happened. I am not for removal of the attack volumes just because some people can't make logical sense of them.

just like it was with the poisoning, which was eventually removed. Then Joel also said that the poisoning looks like a punishment for the player even if he did not make mistakes, and therefore it should be removed.

This is nothing like the vomiting other than simply both being features you happen to dislike. And Joel never said those words. He did come to agree that the vomiting result was too punishing in its form and decided to rework it but he never stated that it appeared as a punishment to players who made no mistakes. I wouldn't be surprised if vomiting came back in some aspect before the game is finished. Joel never said it was a permanent removal.

Such zones could be called a surprise if they accidentally appeared in completely different locations and in different places of these locations )

I would love it if attack zones became random so that you never could memorize which rooms in which POI's they would occur. But I doubt those who prefer to shoot manequines would go for that either. They want all attack zones removed from the game completely. In their eyes, even one room appearing anywhere completely and irrevocably destroys and invalidates stealth....