PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[MechanicalLens]

I've only maxed out a weapon perk once or twice back when the new perk system was new and I was testing a couple of the builds. I vastly prefer to spread points around and be a bit above average in many things rather than specialize in just one thing. I tend to buy perks based on my immediate needs and wants. I just started a new playthrough with a brother who has never played before and decided to go full knives so I'm pouring everything into that and trying my best to not get distracted by what looks shiny in any given moment.

It's very good that you are branching out. I'm considering going bladed myself once A20 eventually hits the public market. Until then I've yet to fall out of old habits. If you wouldn't mind spending another moment of your time at some point, I am curious which perks you typically take and why (i.e. perks that you consider the "diamonds in the rough"). Are there any that you typically purchase as soon as possible? If you're interested I could share with you my traditions in response. I think it would be fascinating for us to learn from one another in this regard. Of course if anyone else wants to chime in, feel free to say what's on your mind.

 

[Roland]

It's embarrassing to say because I really am very short sighted in my perk purchasing. Usually I am loathe to spend any points on weapons until I find or can purchase something worthwhile and then I'll spend points on that. So for the first week I usually buy the quality of life stuff as I need it. It's literally like if I decide on Day 3 that I want to build a base from scratch then I'll put points into Miner69 and Mother Lode. If I am doing quests and am coming home encumbered and sick of it, I'll put a point or two into pack mule. I almost always put a point into Master Chef if I'm playing solo but never if I'm playing with family as there are others who love to cook and feed everyone.

I don't mind spending a couple of points towards building a forge and a bicycle but I usually wait until after day 7 just in case the trader restock nets me the parts or the outright bicycle that I can just purchase and to see if I'll find a working forge somewhere. I never feel a need to really get into the forge or perking up a particular weapon until after the first bloodmoon because it is such a cakewalk. 

I guess I just kind of like all the general ability perks that make life easier and stamina better and food digestion slower etc during the first week or two and then start perking into the favorites of the good weapons I've begun to find and/or buy at the trader. I personally love the bow and arrow. I am always happy when I find good bows and bow parts early on because then I know I'll be perking up archery. There is just something so satisfying about popping zombie heads with an arrow from my bow. I remember spending my nights using gore blocks as target practice and no matter how far away they were, I could hear the satisfying wet bloody splashing sound when they would pop to one of my arrows. Ah gore blocks.....good times....

In my current playthrough I'm ignoring all those general goodies and just focusing on maxing knives. So really a different approach than normal. I haven't even gotten a hunting knife yet and am still using a bone knife. Normally, if I was going to do blades I would wait until I had obtained at least a hunting knife....

 

[MechanicalLens]

Very interesting. While you are very flexible and have no real plan going into your next game in terms of weaponry, I am quite the opposite. Towards the end of my soon-to-be retired playthrough I meticulously flesh out my next character, either with the official 7D2D perk calculator (thank you Jackplay) or through various blueprints and work documents. I typically have four main playthroughs per alpha, each one consisting of the heavy use of one of the attributes, one by one, except for Intellect. I've yet to be sold on that one. So if I'm going clubs, it doesn't matter if I loot a superior spear or machete before my first baseball bat- I stick to my plan and see it through.

I'm a miner by heart, through and through. While the Dwarves delved too greedily and too deep, I plunge ever deeper into the world seeking great veins of ore while craving great tunnels out of the stone. These days I find that I invest all of my early game perks into Miner 69er, Mother Lode, and Sex Rex, getting the former two to rank 4/5 and the latter to rank 3/4 before the first blood moon hits, along with a point in Advanced Engineering since I often cannot be bothered to wait around for a forge recipe. (Maybe I'm having dumb luck, but I often find that the traders aren't selling forges nor do I find the schematic until 20-30 hours in my games on average.) Having quality level 5 iron tools and the ability to swing them indefinitely greatly increases my resource harvesting capabilities and the prospect for building a larger structure earlier than most; I go big or I go home, although I often find I bite off more than I can chew, sometimes to the point of burning me out of that particular run.

Other miscellaneous points within the first couple of weeks include a single rank into The Huntsman to acquire extra meat early on as well as additional bones from gore piles, a point into Rule 1: Cardio if I cannot procure or craft a bicycle within the first week, and perhaps a single point each into the perks of whatever weapons I happened to select from. I rarely visit traders nowadays, so I never invest into the bartering and adventuring skills anymore, although we'll see if A20 changes this.

Before crafting bullets I am inclined to invest the required number of perk points to bring Advanced Engineering to the third rank. Totally unnecessary especially if I'm rolling around with shotguns, but I suppose to bleeds directly into my min-max strategy.

Other perks I eventually invest into are Pain Tolerance, a single point into Living Off The Land, Heavy Armor, the final points into my weapon perks, a point or two into Salvage Operations, and honestly that would about do it. By this point I'm around level 50 and the level grind truly begins. But perhaps that is because I play on 75% EXP; I level up far too quickly for my own good. On 60 minute days and 100% EXP gain I could easily level three times a day until the mid-30's.

Also I must mention I never invest into the Agility tree unless I'm going for a stealth run.

When A20 hits I'm considering changing up the name of the game a little and breaking some old nasty habits. Restarting innumerable times before finally sticking to a playthrough is one of them, building a non-modular base that takes me weeks to finish before I can finally begin defending from it is a close second. Perhaps instead of treating them like a band-aid, I might only invest into the mining/stamina perks once I require them versus weeks ahead of time.

For right now I've rolled back to Alpha 18.4 stable branch where I am finishing off my current playthrough; I'm honestly going to be retiring it much sooner than expected. I might start another run, or just wait until the next alpha. Skyrim will be more than enough to keep my busy.

 

[bachgaman]

 If you only encounter 1 zombie, sure. However, if you encounter a group of 4 zombies, it is 12 hits vs 20 on hard, with 1 less zombie to fight each time you kill one.

On easy, it is 4 hits vs 8, with one zombie dying and thus not still trying to hit you, with each hit. If you can't see that can mean the difference between living and dying for someone who is not very skilled at the game, you are just not looking.

12 vs 20 or 4 vs 8 thats still boring 50% 

And again, the fact that you believe a perk to be "such a crap" does not make it so for other people in other situations. 

People who don't do a lot of mining consider the mining perks to be crap. People who don't use the trader or rarely use the trader consider better barter and daring adventurer crap. People who stick to the town they make their base in would consider grease monkey a crap way to use points.

People who play solo would consider charismatic nature crap, since it only benefits multiplayer. People who live strictly off of scavenged food and drinks would consider living off the land and master chef crap.

You are confusing your perception of the value added by perks as the absolute value.

Mining is vital. If you don’t mine resources, then you don’t survive.

Barter and adventurer are just OP skills that allow you to get a crucible by day 10, and a drill by 18th.

Charisma is not necessary in a solo, I agree, but that does not make it weak, but just specific. What is important is that it provides unique and interesting bonuses.

It is impossible to live on canned food and drinks if you do not exploit death or the absence of a penalty for hunger.

Thus, everything that you wrote does not apply to real players, it applies to people resting in a near-creative mode. Also, all this does not make these skills boring and weak, such as 10/20/30/40/50% damage from a Javelin. You still don't understand what I'm talking about

I specifically said "larger multiplayer". adding 2-3 more people makes it more difficult but still manageable for me. Larger multiplayer (6-8) makes it much more difficult.

As for the stamina penalty, I have never seen a 10%. It is always higher. And many people use melee weapons efficiently and have fun with them. Stamina penalties affect them a lot. 

While you are unable to use melee weapons effectively and have fun with them, many people can and do. Those people care about stamina and thus food.

I specifically said "extreme example". And I agreed that in such an extreme situation there really is a need to improve this ability once for each member of group. Why are there other levels of this ability in the game if by the time they are learned, even a large group will not have problems with food?

Thus, according to you, the game makes already weak melee class, able to survive only on an easy level of difficulty, addicted to food, while people who have found a more useful use of their skill points do not need food. Very clever game design. Let's do a dull 10/20/30/40/50% Javelin and make the hunger penalty make them even weaker than others

 

[MechanicalLens]

It is impossible to live on canned food and drinks if you do not exploit death or the absence of a penalty for hunger.

Not true. Many people did just this in Alpha 18 due to the irritating food poisoning mechanic that was in the game back then. All you have to do is mark each vending machine you find on the map and visit them daily.

 

[BFT2020]

Thus, everything that you wrote does not apply to real players, it applies to people resting in a near-creative mode. Also, all this does not make these skills boring and weak, such as 10/20/30/40/50% damage from a Javelin. You still don't understand what I'm talking about

Real players are anyone that plays the game and has fun doing so.  It doesn’t matter if they play at the easiest settings or turn all the settings up to the max.  It doesn’t matter if they build a huge, complex base or take over a POI to defend themselves against the hordes.  It doesn’t matter if they go in guns blazing all the time, or use melee weapons a majority of the time.  It doesn’t matter if they spread their perks across multiple trees or specialize in one or two.

Real players are players that play the game; it is not defined by your playstyle.

 

[bachgaman]

Real players are anyone that plays the game and has fun doing so.  It doesn’t matter if they play at the easiest settings or turn all the settings up to the max.  It doesn’t matter if they build a huge, complex base or take over a POI to defend themselves against the hordes.  It doesn’t matter if they go in guns blazing all the time, or use melee weapons a majority of the time.  It doesn’t matter if they spread their perks across multiple trees or specialize in one or two.

Real players are players that play the game; it is not defined by your playstyle.

The fact that some "playstyles" are only available only at low difficulty suggests that there is an imbalance in the game, so what's wrong with asking to balance them? You attack me like I'm suggesting that all melee weapons shoueld be removed

In addition, initially it was about making these abilities more interesting than 10/20/30/40/50% damage, I'm already tired of writing about this

 

[Roland]

The fact that some "playstyles" are only available only at low difficulty suggests that there is an imbalance in the game

Maybe I missed it and I know you're tired but could you please give me an example of a playstyle that is only available at low difficulty and is impossible to accomplish at high difficulty?

 

[MechanicalLens]

Maybe I missed it and I know you're tired but could you please give me an example of a playstyle that is only available at low difficulty and is impossible to accomplish at high difficulty?

Not dying.

 

[uncle.heavy]

The fact that some "playstyles" are only available only at low difficulty suggests that there is an imbalance in the game, so what's wrong with asking to balance them? You attack me like I'm suggesting that all melee weapons shoueld be removed

In addition, initially it was about making these abilities more interesting than 10/20/30/40/50% damage, I'm already tired of writing about this

There have been reports from enough players stating they are completely fine with melee on difficulties of survivalist and beyond and any Z speed. Your ignoring these as they contradict your opinion and experience does not make them any less real.

So, out of the window for not being viable only on low dificulties are hammers, knuckles, clubs and batons, going only by these last pages in the thread.

That leaves us with javelins and maybe knives, with javelins incidentally also being the single one melee weapon whose related perk does soleley add the oft-mentioned flat and uninteresting 50% damage bonus and nothing else. That this whole attribute is on the radar for being reviewed has been stated, so you had been heard before you even spoke up.

Repetition of those arguments that had been disproven already is tiresome to everyone involved, be sure about that. 

 

[bachgaman]

There have been reports from enough players stating they are completely fine with melee on difficulties of survivalist and beyond and any Z speed.

In addition, initially it was about making these abilities more interesting than 10/20/30/40/50% damage, I'm already tired of writing about this

Stop writing to me about someone who using sledgehammer to kill a alone zombie on nightmare difficulty. I do it myself too

Your ignoring these as they contradict your opinion and experience does not make them any less real.

I don’t remember that I ignored someone

So, out of the window for not being viable only on low dificulties are hammers, knuckles, clubs and batons, going only by these last pages in the thread.

That leaves us with javelins and maybe knives, with javelins incidentally also being the single one melee weapon whose related perk does soleley add the oft-mentioned flat and uninteresting 50% damage bonus and nothing else. That this whole attribute is on the radar for being reviewed has been stated, so you had been heard before you even spoke up.

Repetition of those arguments that had been disproven already is tiresome to everyone involved, be sure about that. 

In that case, even if the developers mentioned it why are you arguing? You want to attack me, instead of supporting rework of truly dead/boring abilities, you attack me about borderline examples and all write same things about the using sledgehammers.

It looks like you are simply against any proposals, you want to hinder any other people's initiative. Do you know about the crab mentality? Instead of voting for to be given interesting content, you continue to throw arguments at me that someone was playing with knife on YouTube 

Maybe I missed it and I know you're tired but could you please give me an example of a playstyle that is only available at low difficulty and is impossible to accomplish at high difficulty?

It is impossible to make any melee weapon the main one without dying often and without abusing something

You don't need to submit your YouTube videos where people are doing this, clearly abusing the flaws of AI or other mechanics, I'm talking about ordinary players, not content makers

 

[Roland]

It is impossible to make any melee weapon the main one without dying often and without abusing something

You don't need to submit your YouTube videos where people are doing this, clearly abusing the flaws of AI or other mechanics, I'm talking about ordinary players, not content makers

Content makers aren't ordinary players.....? Just because they have a camera turned on the game behaves differently for them? Just like any player you will have content makers who exploit and those who play it straight. There is no difference.

You are basically projecting your own experience and level of play onto everyone else and then refusing to accept any proof that shows what you don't want to see.

Let me ask you this: At what level of difficulty can YOU still use any melee weapon as the main one and not die often and without abusing something? Nomad? Warrior? Survivalist? What is the upper limit from your experience where the game starts falling apart. You've already scoffed at Adventurer level so I assume you feel melee weapons are fine at that level but at what point do they stop for you and start requiring abuse in order to make them work?

 

[Roland]

you want to hinder any other people's initiative.

I know this wasn't directed at me but your proposal could be seen as wanting to nerf other people's challenge. If using melee weapons as the main weapon without abusing anything is truly close to impossible then it forms a high mark to aspire to. If we listen to you and make using melee weapons quite possible at the highest difficulties then for those who are close to that level of skill, we have basically yanked the rug out from beneath them. Buffing up weapons so that YOU can play at the hardest difficulty level with those weapons and feel good about it may very well wreck the experience for someone else who will then be asking for a new difficulty level above insane where melee weapons are truly challenging for them again.

I can see how people might feel protective of the current level of challenge in Insane and might want to hinder attempts by one guy who views that level of challenge as impossible to get it changed. It would be like me asking for aim assist to be added to ranged weapons because when I play insane nightmare I just can't line shots up quickly enough without somehow abusing the game and so I deem it impossible and assume that it must be impossible for anyone else as well. Others who can use ranged weapons just fine would probably be aghast at aim assist suddenly being added to the game.

 

[BFT2020]

The fact that some "playstyles" are only available only at low difficulty suggests that there is an imbalance in the game, so what's wrong with asking to balance them? You attack me like I'm suggesting that all melee weapons shoueld be removed

In addition, initially it was about making these abilities more interesting than 10/20/30/40/50% damage, I'm already tired of writing about this

I never attacked you, and I never stated that you suggested all melee weapons should be removed.  What I been arguing against was your belief that:  Melee weapons were useless at any difficulty higher than adventurer, that the perks for melee weapons are useless, and that melee weapons and bows are worthless after the first week of gameplay.

Remember when you posted "

Deep Cuts

Is someone really fighting with a bone knife instead of a club? or with a hunting knife instead of a grenade launcher?"

I replied "Yes, I do fight with a bone knife at the beginning until I can get my hands on a higher quality knife.  Yes, I do perk into Deep Cuts.  Combine with Flurry of blows and parkour, I can handle anything outside of a 64 Z bloodmoon horde"

And what exactly was your response?  "I repeat, you can tell any stories from the Adventurer difficulty level, this will in no way change the fact that these perks are worthless"

Which I found interesting since I been playing Survivalist difficulty for some time now.  Who exactly is attacking whom?  The person who stated that they can play with other melee weapons than just the club and using those perks to their advantage, or the person that just assumes that the author is only playing at the lowest difficulty so their opinion doesn't count.

So please stop acting like you're a victim.  I was never attacking you, just arguing against your broad comments that melee weapons and the perks for them are useless.

Spears are definitely not the most powerful but using a spear in combination with a club is just a lot of fun. Jab Jab Throw smash.

Do you ever say that when you are playing?  Jab Jab Throw Smash?  

 

[Roland]

Do you ever say that when you are playing?  Jab Jab Throw Smash?  

Yes, and sometimes "Razzle Dazzle!"

 

[BFT2020]

Yes, and sometimes "Razzle Dazzle!"

No judgment from me; I caught myself saying "Poke Poke" at times when I am kiting a wandering horde with my knife  

 

[bachgaman]

Content makers aren't ordinary players.....? Just because they have a camera turned on the game behaves differently for them? Just like any player you will have content makers who exploit and those who play it straight. There is no difference.

They almost always do shows at any cost, otherwise they won't be watched.

You are basically projecting your own experience and level of play onto everyone else and then refusing to accept any proof that shows what you don't want to see.

Let me ask you this: At what level of difficulty can YOU still use any melee weapon as the main one and not die often and without abusing something? Nomad? Warrior? Survivalist? What is the upper limit from your experience where the game starts falling apart. You've already scoffed at Adventurer level so I assume you feel melee weapons are fine at that level but at what point do they stop for you and start requiring abuse in order to make them work?

Man, I don't do perversions, I play with strong ranged weapons, but I try everything. And I see that melee weapons are incomparably worse, it is impossible to survive BM using only melee weapons. I don't think that even at low difficulty levels it is possible without running away and hiding from the horde.

Now tell me, at what difficulty level do you play using only melee weapons?

In addition, you, as usual, brought the conversation from discussing boring perks to discussing power of weapons. Well done.

I know this wasn't directed at me but your proposal could be seen as wanting to nerf other people's challenge. If using melee weapons as the main weapon without abusing anything is truly close to impossible then it forms a high mark to aspire to. If we listen to you and make using melee weapons quite possible at the highest difficulties then for those who are close to that level of skill, we have basically yanked the rug out from beneath them. Buffing up weapons so that YOU can play at the hardest difficulty level with those weapons and feel good about it may very well wreck the experience for someone else who will then be asking for a new difficulty level above insane where melee weapons are truly challenging for them again.

I can see how people might feel protective of the current level of challenge in Insane and might want to hinder attempts by one guy who views that level of challenge as impossible to get it changed. It would be like me asking for aim assist to be added to ranged weapons because when I play insane nightmare I just can't line shots up quickly enough without somehow abusing the game and so I deem it impossible and assume that it must be impossible for anyone else as well. Others who can use ranged weapons just fine would probably be aghast at aim assist suddenly being added to the game.

Okay, I don't mind, let's vote to weaken the firearm so that it is impossible to play with it on a high level of difficulty. You don't understand where I see the problem. I see it in the fact that at a high level of difficulty, the player has no choice. And you are trying to hurt me with the fact that I am supposedly the only person on earth who cannot cope with the horde on a insane nightmare using a only club

 

[uncle.heavy]

I don’t remember that I ignored someone

I am inclined to take this as a fact as 

Stop writing to me about someone who using sledgehammer to kill a alone zombie on nightmare difficulty. I do it myself too

this is not what most people have been writing about on the last three pages. @BFT2020 being one of them and beating me to the answer.

Then again, maybe you in fact have a lot of people on ignore and wonder why I am babbling about three pages of "melee rocks" reports.

They had repeatedly stated ( I am so going to quote myself here  )

There have been reports from enough players stating they are completely fine with melee on difficulties of survivalist and beyond and any Z speed.

and you just went on about how melee is not viable at higher difficulties despite people actually thriving on said difficulties while maining melee weapons.

They had not stated that they pulled out a melee weapon for giggles once and totally owned that lone zombie while barely surviving: they are mainly playing said melee weapon and, again, not only on lower difficulties.

In that case, even if the developers mentioned it why are you arguing? You want to attack me, instead of supporting rework of truly dead/boring abilities, you attack me about borderline examples and all write same things about the using sledgehammers.

Me, I am not arguing the javelin, just stating that except for javelin master every single other perk out there that directly empowers a given melee weapon does add abilities way beyond the 50% flat damage bonus. I will go so far as to claim that the 50% damage bonus is the least interesting ( sic!) and least empowering of the bonuses that each of the perks directly connected to a melee weapon provides.

This is not accounted for by making the flat 50% bonus a main argument why all melee perks are boring and uninteresting and are in dire need of change.

As said argument only pertains to the javelin. So much for edge cases.

Neither have I observed any attacks on you; by me or anyone else. Ok, someone questioned your size, once, but we're all only human here.

And, to be absolutely honest, the calling out pervs and abusers and whatnot has not been directed at you.

To be sure, I do not know about the dying frequency of the melee camp but surely they would not take the challenge if they saw absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel. I wouldn't for sure. You wouldn't I think. Real players wouldn't, and even perverts might be discouraged at times.

Sorry for adding to the clutter overall.

 

[Gamida]

This conversation has been going on for so long I expect if I could scroll back to the original poster he would be named Noah. (He double posted )

I have resigned myself to the fact that the game is going to be made the way TFP's wants and I am fine with that (now lol).

The fact is with so many, many different people playing it is impossible to make it the way 100% of us want it. There is always going to be someone who

thinks they can make an improvement in their eyes. And that is ok. Having a forum where you can voice your opinion is great...just don't expect it to change the devs point of view on how

they want it to work.

The thing I like personally is that no matter which way they finally determine the game will go they have, and hopefully will always, allow the players to make major modifications so it is how we

want the game to be. It may not be the perfect way, but at least it is a way. I usually play new releases on vanilla settings for a while then I mod the crap out of it. Hey, it's what makes me happy.

So for now I am enjoying the fact that it is still being added to and when it goes gold and things slow down here I will miss you all....except for Snowdog1942...he creeps me out

As guppy would say, Peace Out.

 

[bachgaman]

Yes, I do fight with a bone knife at the beginning until I can get my hands on a higher quality knife.  Yes, I do perk into Deep Cuts.  Combine with Flurry of blows and parkour, I can handle anything outside of a 64 Z bloodmoon horde

So, you could clarify this right away

How do you do it? Let me guess

Are you building some weird structures with zombies stuck in or something like that?

Are you jumping from pole to pole trying to play for time?

In any case, i bet it looks something like this. Thus, you "survive" not thanks to melee weapons, but in spite of them. It's like saying that a kettlebell tied to your leg helps you swim, because there are several people who have learned to swim with a kettlebell all their lives and they succeeded