PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[HungryZombie]

So basically, despite the fact this is where balance was not focused, the four other attributes could hold their own solo, to varying degrees (depending on the type of weapon), but the Intellect built would have the most trouble in this regard. M60 vs horde? Easy. Shotgun vs horde? No problem. Sniper + explosives vs horde? Doable. Pistols + SMG against horde? A cakewalk. Turrets vs horde? Obscenely difficult.

Not complaining, just making an observation.

I think you are overlooking some possibilities.  Like M60 + 2 Turrets. Rocket Launcher + Turrets, etc.  You also are not considering things like blade traps and electric trip wires and fences. This is where an intellect build thrives in a nicely built kill corridor with turrets and blade traps with electric wires that stun the horde. This takes care of any horde, any size just about.

Int is totally sustainable as a build.

 

[CypherTodd]

The survival is purpose.  It is not games' fault if you can not be entertained if game isn't a theme park. How can you call it your "favourite game"  when you hate its very basics. There are tons of game with "no purpose". Look at WoW. League of Legends. Cities: Skylines. They are all popular.

and that is where you are wrong.  All those games HAVE purpose.  Gear/boss/advance.  Kill the enemy base, win.  build bigger, fix issues that arise because of city size.  they ALL have a purpose.  so......

 

[CypherTodd]

The developers are aware of and impressed by Valheim. There is definitely some inspiration to be found there for them to possibly think about for a sequel-- but 7 Days to Die is what it is. It's practically done. There are some additional features still in the works including an over-arching goal regarding Noah vs the Duke. But no matter how cool Valheim is or what amazing innovative features emerge in the next few months in some other new release, it isn't going to affect this game very much. But Valheim definitely is inspirational in what it does well and any development studio should take notice and spend time talking about why it has skyrocketed like it has.

Ya I get it, they are still a small team.  And that sucks I am in no way trying to be a critic.  4656 hours.  So ya, I was just really wanting it to be more.  I know that is not going to happen, and I do feel modders will be have a huge impact after full release.  I just some times go to bed thinking wouldn't it be cool to have a hub city with a massive underground base where you have to finally find the cure, or reason, and then get rescued, or a massive quest were you have to repair a damn, and provide power to XYZ.  Just bigger, cause that is what, I humbly feel, is the one missing ingredient.  The reason to push on, a goal.  7days to die the sequel maybe.   

 

[hiemfire]

I'm going to drop this here instead of in the Dev Diary where the argument keeps coming up, but the disagreements over the balance between the different perk lines seems to be falling into a difference between those that love living by the dice (The "It's fine. Just take x, y or z rng drop dependent items with it and you're set." group) and those that don't (the "Running spec a eats x times more resources, including time, than running running spec b. And that is if I even find the items my spec works with." group).

 

[morggin]

Hoping to see dual wielding in a future alpha, dual revolvers would look cool, also a few variations of revolvers too like a mosin nagant or something to that effect 

mosin nagant is not a revolver it's a russian military rifle.

 

[beHypE]

One huge asset Valheim has over 7 days to die is that, as some have stated, time is no issue. You could be grinding the starter biome for 20 hours if that's fun to you, just casually hunting birds and deers, or you could try to rush as quickly as possible to the next biome until you finish the game (or get rekt and realise you need to prepare). This also brings a level of flexibility 7 days doesn't have. We've had days with my group where we really wanted to push it and get a challenge, and then there were days of "let's just hunt some meat and feathers and maybe do a low level cave because we need early game mats". You can't do that with 7 days. The way the game is designed, it's basically a rush against the clock to be prepared by the next horde. Sure, you can turn off hordes or just play on 2 hours days with easy settings, but then the whole challenge is gone for the entirety of the game. You can't just hop in and do whatever you feel like depending on the day and your IRL energy level, you'll have to live with the decision you made when you first started playing (unless you constantly change settings which would feel gamey to the point of being close to cheating the game).

In addition, the biomes really feel different, as in, different monsters, different ressources, different milestones in crafting/building. The biomes in 7 days feel like basic reskins with the odd wildlife difference, but zombies are all the same especially in their mechanics. Hopefully A20 will turn that a bit around, but unless we get special creatures for the harder biomes, just "raising the gamestage" won't give biomes a different combat feel. Oh yeah, combat. Valheim's combat is simple but it's fun and engaging. 7 days melee combat is quite frankly subpar on so many levels, especially compared to how awesome the game is in other areas. 

Lastly, bosses. We've had crazy fun doing the 2nd boss to the point we're thinking about picking up Monster Hunter. There's a great sense of adventure when you sail off with the purpose of defeating a boss in Valheim, and a great feel of accomplishment once you're done. There's really no milestone in 7 days that is comparable. Sure, the hordes are fun, but the aftermath doesn't change jack to your game besides you having repairing to do and less bullets to expend.

 

[yisssnakk]

mosin nagant is not a revolver it's a russian military rifle.

There is a Nagant revolver but the Mosin-Nagant is most definitely a bolt action rifle with a 5 round internal magazine that can be fed from stripper clips (and would be pretty darned cool to have in the game!). To the original post though, dual wield would also be cool but potentially difficult to map for - currently on the PC you have one function for attack and one for heavy attack. There could be a weapon specific mapping (say, two machete's, for example) where left and right mouse corresponds to that weapon hand and a power attack could be triggered by clicking both attack buttons at once...

 

[Jost Amman]

One huge asset Valheim has over 7 days to die is that, as some have stated, time is no issue. You could be grinding the starter biome for 20 hours if that's fun to you, just casually hunting birds and deers, or you could try to rush as quickly as possible to the next biome until you finish the game (or get rekt and realise you need to prepare). This also brings a level of flexibility 7 days doesn't have. We've had days with my group where we really wanted to push it and get a challenge, and then there were days of "let's just hunt some meat and feathers and maybe do a low level cave because we need early game mats". You can't do that with 7 days. The way the game is designed, it's basically a rush against the clock to be prepared by the next horde. Sure, you can turn off hordes or just play on 2 hours days with easy settings, but then the whole challenge is gone for the entirety of the game. You can't just hop in and do whatever you feel like depending on the day and your IRL energy level, you'll have to live with the decision you made when you first started playing (unless you constantly change settings which would feel gamey to the point of being close to cheating the game).

In addition, the biomes really feel different, as in, different monsters, different ressources, different milestones in crafting/building. The biomes in 7 days feel like basic reskins with the odd wildlife difference, but zombies are all the same especially in their mechanics. Hopefully A20 will turn that a bit around, but unless we get special creatures for the harder biomes, just "raising the gamestage" won't give biomes a different combat feel. Oh yeah, combat. Valheim's combat is simple but it's fun and engaging. 7 days melee combat is quite frankly subpar on so many levels, especially compared to how awesome the game is in other areas. 

Lastly, bosses. We've had crazy fun doing the 2nd boss to the point we're thinking about picking up Monster Hunter. There's a great sense of adventure when you sail off with the purpose of defeating a boss in Valheim, and a great feel of accomplishment once you're done. There's really no milestone in 7 days that is comparable. Sure, the hordes are fun, but the aftermath doesn't change jack to your game besides you having repairing to do and less bullets to expend.

Honestly, what you're describing is just the well known difference between a story based game and a sandbox.

7D2D is not story based, so you won't get different "levels" for each story step. 

I agree though on the need to add more variety, if possible, but that's already being covered by the future addition of special infected and bandits.

 

[Demonoid74]

Those are some meaty shotgun shells... He's going to sell whatever shotgun those are for right?

Yeah those look like some of the shells for my 42mm grenade launcher lol

 

[beHypE]

Honestly, what you're describing is just the well known difference between a story based game and a sandbox.

7D2D is not story based, so you won't get different "levels" for each story step. 

I agree though on the need to add more variety, if possible, but that's already being covered by the future addition of special infected and bandits.

"Story-driven" is a stretch for Valheim lol, it's more of a system where 1 biome = X monsters + 1 ressource + 1 boss. But you can totally "sandbox" the experience and go visit (almost) all areas on day 1, just like in 7 days to die. The key difference in 7 days to die is that there really isn't a huge difference between say the snow biome and the forest. Blueberries, differently skinned zombies, cold weather and cougars but... that's it. Meadows and the swamps are nothing alike in Valheim, to only name a few.

Then again all those "story driven" elements and bandits and such are yet to come but... yeah, they have been for years now with not even a glimpse of what it will look like.

 

[Gazz]

The key difference in 7 days to die is that there really isn't a huge difference between say the snow biome and the forest.

Yes, but that's been planned for a while now. Gamestage variation between different biomes is already possible (A19) with a simple XML mod but that's only part of it.

 

[beHypE]

Yes, but that's been planned for a while now. Gamestage variation between different biomes is already possible (A19) with a simple XML mod but that's only part of it.

I know but that "mid to end game content" has been on 7 days to die's roadmap before Valheim even started being under development, not to mention Valheim has a roadmap of its own, so I think it's only fair comparing what the products have delivered as of today without taking into consideration any "will have should have"s.

 

[Morloc]

...player-built NPC settlements will be used to provide automation to things like mining/farming/crafting/defense and to defeat AI cheesing horde night strategies by having the horde target NPC's in the player's settlement. Is there any truth to this...

I've never seen that mentioned by anyone with authority, but I've posted suggestions along those lines on at least two occasions here. The idea seemed to be a solution to making horde night more fun and relevant while being only moderately difficult to implement.


-Morloc

 

[Roland]

You can't do that with 7 days. The way the game is designed, it's basically a rush against the clock to be prepared by the next horde. Sure, you can turn off hordes or just play on 2 hours days with easy settings, but then the whole challenge is gone for the entirety of the game. You can't just hop in and do whatever you feel like depending on the day and your IRL energy level, you'll have to live with the decision you made when you first started playing (unless you constantly change settings which would feel gamey to the point of being close to cheating the game).

Well...you can ignore the first two or three bloodmoons and stay pretty safe on the roof of larger POIs if you just want to spend time clearing POIs or doing quests, or harvesting resources. That’s 21 days of playing however you want without feeling rushed to prepare for the horde. 
 

You can also decrease the frequency of bloodmoons to once every 10 days or once every 14 days etc. 

7 Days definitely has a tower defense emphasis that Valheim doesn’t. I see that as them being different types of games and I wouldn’t want either to change what they are to be more like the other in that regard. I’d rather just be able to play both depending upon my mood. 
 

The boss progression is something I think 7 Days could definitely add to great effect. They could do it with bandits having a forest lieutenant, desert lieutenant, snow lieutenant, and wasteland lieutenant. Killing each one opens the way to the next and culminating in a showdown with either the Duke or Noah depending on which faction you went for. 
 

But....they could also just as easily decide to save something like that for a sequel. 

 

[Roland]

I know but that "mid to end game content" has been on 7 days to die's roadmap before Valheim even started being under development, not to mention Valheim has a roadmap of its own, so I think it's only fair comparing what the products have delivered as of today without taking into consideration any "will have should have"s.

I’m glad Valheim came out and the devs were able to play it before completely implementing their own biome difficulty progression. Hopefully, the things they like about biome progression in Valheim can inspire them as they design biome progression in 7 Days. 
 

As Gazz said, they’ve had biome difficulty progression planned for awhile and it has to be a good thing to be able to analyze the pros and cons of a popular game that already has that part of the game implemented. 
 

Same for Valheim— if they ever decide to go deeper with their own random nights of base defense, they have the benefit of having played 7 Days to Die to see what works and what doesn’t for them. 

 

[Roland]

One thing I discovered with Valheim is that if you just play, not min max, the progression just sort of works, without even really trying.  I like that.  There is a um... Special person... on the server that has crates and crates of stuff... That works for him.  I like that.  I chose to work with others, this person was more solo, but both worked.  He was a little faster on boss beating than we were but it wasn't that far off.  Both play styles worked.  I had fun, and presumably he had fun, that's what counted...   I don't have that experience with 7 days.  7 days forces you to a pace. 

With 7days I don't get that sandbox feeling.  I *have* to play by their rules, and the progression is always the same.  There are some deviations between skill trees but ultimately it comes down to making lots of bullets and shooting lots of things.  

Anyway, I didn't really intend to do a side by side comparison (although 7days of old did have those trees).

 Could you, though? Your vague generalizations that 7 Days is on rails and you must do things in xyz order and that there is a forced pace and progression that is always the same isn't doing it for me-- without specific examples of what you are referencing comparing the two games I just don't see what you are claiming. I could say that Valheim "forces" you into a linear progression because there is no way you can go straight to swamp or plains and be remotely successful until you've done Black Forest at the least. I mean, I suppose on my second full playthrough of the game I could do whatever I wanted since my persistent character would already start the game with all skills progressed and all techs and tools unlocked... But on a first playthrough one could say in a general sweeping way-- Valheim is definitely on rails as far as exploration and progression and the devs force you into xyz-- 

Your example of one guy just spending time collecting stuff and filling boxes and going solo and you working with other players and both styles working-- I've played both ways in 7 Days (recently and not just "back in the day"} and they both work. Of course, just like for Valheim, it requires that you just play, not min max, not game the system to rush the progression-- it works.

I guess I just don't see what you are talking about in 7 Days as being forced to play a certain way. I certainly don't feel forced. I still play nomad at times, take over existing POI's at times, and build my own base from scratch at times. I still make my own objectives for the day and then carry them out and get distracted by other things that happen. I get that you don't like the streamlining of some of the processes like what they did with ore or removing sticks and fiber and shifting to a point system instead of an LBD system. I know you feel forced to follow the light path in POI's. 

But none of that translates to the game in general being on rails and there is only one forced way to play and there is no sandbox feel. There are fewer steps to getting ore that you can use for crafting than there used to be. But that doesn't force you into one style of playing. In fact, everyone is so excited for the biome difficulty progression (just like Valheim has!) and yet....who can argue that that very mechanic isn't going to "force" even more linearity into the game? Sure, you can choose to go to desert or snow or wasteland during the first week but most will play the game in the "right" order just like they do Valheim.

So, yeh...some side by side comparison would be appreciated over generalized statements of feelings.

 

[Roland]

Yes, but that's been planned for a while now. Gamestage variation between different biomes is already possible (A19) with a simple XML mod but that's only part of it.

This is interesting. Which xml edit? I did a cursory look in spawning, loot, biome, and progression but couldn't see a value to edit that would affect gamestage one way or another by biome. This could be fun to play around with in A19. Could you point?

 

[Gazz]

See entityclasses.xml for "wasteland gamestage bonus".

 

[Roland]

Awesome! Thanks @Gazz

<!-- wasteland gamestage bonus
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="75">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="8"/>
        </passive_effect>
        -->

So just uncomment it and then duplicate it a few times changing the biome number so it applies to the other biomes and play around with the gamestage base-add value? Definitely going to play around with this. This adds to the player's gamestage so it will affect both enemies and loot, correct? This could give a rough approximation of what is coming without some of the "among other things" you mentioned.

so as a first stab at it like....

<!-- wasteland gamestage bonus-->
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="100">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="8"/>
        </passive_effect>
        <!-- snow gamestage bonus-->
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="80">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="1"/>
        <!-- desert gamestage bonus-->
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="60">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="5"/>
        </passive_effect>
        <!-- burnt forest gamestage bonus-->
        <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="40">
            <requirement name="InBiome" biome="9"/>
        </passive_effect>

 

[Guppycur]

Well that's the least of the XMLs to edit; you'll also want to edit the groups so that certain zombies only appear in certain biomes, then do the same for loot.  And sleepers.  

If you did not consider Valheim a tower defense game that I think you did it wrong. Especially for boss fights, I found building preparation very important. For the weird wandering hoard things, defenses were also important.  Way more so than in 7 days, when you can just clear a poi, make a few adjustments and be okay.  Sure, valheim has its cheese (moats), but that's every game.  Building in 7 days isn't even necessary.  Hell a few players lay down some barb wire for horde nights and just jump back and forth over it killing.  

If you want specific comparisons, then let's talk about the hand holding that the skill tree does.  7days guides you throughout.  In order to get this, you must do that first.  In order to do that, you must do these.  Specifically, the skill/perk system.

Sure, you *could* ignore that entirely and play without leveling up the very specific paths, but then again you could turn your monitor off and play.

"Back in the good old days" when you learned skills from books and increased skill by doing, you weren't tied to a literal skill tree.  It encouraged exploration and planning.  

Right now you don't *ever* have to leave a decent sized town.  Ever. 

You touched on it with your explanation of valheim... One you have your character you could replay the game with that character, and I bet you'd still have fun.  There would still be a challenge.  A two star firling will still mess your day up. 

Do that in 7 days and it'll be a yawn fest. 

As an aside, it's very clear from the changes over the last few alphas that the direction tfp is going is thankfully biome based challenges. They've been establishing the foundation for that system for a while, and it shows.

Right now you can add lesser rad zones and give better loot in those zones with some small modding changes.  Seems to me that's their eventual path.